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The NYT takes the CDC to the woodshed over masks


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2 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

Personal attack is the favorite refuge of people who can't address the topic or handle different points of view.  I'm simply reporting the news here, if any of you don't like it I suggest you write nasty letters to the NYT and CDC.  Looking at some of the responses to this thread I see an abundance of talent for doing so.

You were also warned those who can't handle opinions that don't follow the narrative to not read the Blaze op ed about the CDC action and the NYT piece.  If you read it, it really doesn't differ much from the NYT piece but does expand on several aspects with factual citations in support.  I suspect most just simply had the usual knee jerk reaction to the source and haven't a clue what is really in the piece.

Incessant personal attack is also a sign of dementia among the elderly, slainte. :D 

Another new development on the mask front.  Note the source of the original report, Bloomberg, at the bottom of the article.  This too is germane since most of these retailers are big in Mexico and what happens in the U.S. is widely noted here and has major influence.

https://www.newsmax.com/us/walmart-costco-samsclub-masks/2021/05/14/id/1021465/

You go on and on about personal attacks, while making it a hobby to fine-tune your own nasty comments. This comment alone includes a patronizing warning that there are "those who can't handle opinions" here, that our reactions are "knee jerk", that we "haven't a clue", and wrapped it up by implying that Slainte has dementia.

Really helpful in any discussion.

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13 hours ago, mudgirl said:

Once again, as with MC, you don't seem to understand the quite simple concept that changing findings as scientists learn more, warrant changing directives. It doesn't mean you were lied to or purposely misled to start with.

It doesn't kill anyone to wear a mask in public, despite all the anti-maskers' false rhetoric. When you are dealing with a serious medical crisis, erring on the side of caution is the intelligent approach.

Just because it's unlikely that you would have a serious car accident putting along at 30 miles an hour to drive 3 blocks to the store doesn't mean a cop can't ticket you for not wearing your seat belt in places where those seat belt laws are enforced. In other words,the likelihood of getting in an accident, or the likelihood of transmitting Covid outdoors when maskless does not necessarily determine the rules.

I asked regarding this post| MC, I suggest that the next time you go to the dentist, or require surgery, you instruct the dentist or surgeon to take off their "face diaper".

So exactly what has that statement to do with the CDC posting incorrect information? And now lifting mask mandates for fully vaccinated people?

Comparing someone performing a medical procedure to fully vaccinated people not wearing masks makes zero sense.

We now know that the numbers on which the CDC based their outdoor recommendations are months old NOT NEW and they exaggerated the numbers  from under 1% to under 10% .....so isn't it ok to ask WHY?   When the facts were exposed the recommendations changed in days.  

So lets use your automobile seatbelt scenario in a more logical  way 

It wouldn't kill anyone to wear their seatbelt while sitting in a car parked in a public parking lot on the one in a million chance that some car might hit you at high speed. 

Or take one more example. You have an infection. Your doctor prescribes 7 days of an antibiotic, You are done, The infection is gone. Will you continue to take the antibiotic for the rest of your life as a prophylactic?

For those of us who have been fully vaccinated to continue to wear masks is not needed. Now the CDC has stated the same. If you choose to wear a mask for the rest of your life it is your choice. I won't shame you for it.

Nor should you shame those of us that are fully vaccinated choosing to not wear a mask because there is absolutely no scientific, nor logical reason to do so.

 

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So is the previous "science" no longer science?  Because up until this week we were told you had to wear a mask whether vaccinated or not.  When the next pronouncement comes from the CDC will the current science no longer be science?

Personally speaking I am skeptical of anything that goes through as many zig zags as this situation has.  That's where I'm coming from.  I also suffer from living through a number of pandemics without the fear and economic damage that government and media have caused with this one.

No, I don't trust the government anywhere including here to get it right or to admit when they are wrong.

Medical professionals wear professional medical masks which they discard after every use.  They also wear them to protect from spray and splatter.

Equating that to repeatedly worn cloth masks in every situation is pretty silly IMO.  And no, I wouldn't be the least concerned if my dentist didn't wear a face mask.  For much of my life dentists didn't and I'm still here.  

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38 minutes ago, Mostlylost said:

Comparing someone performing a medical procedure to fully vaccinated people not wearing masks makes zero sense.

Of course it makes sense. Both conditions are to keep your germs and your virus to yourself.

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I too have become somewhat 'skeptical' of information that is coming out of the CDC. But IMO that agency has been forced to become political along with being scientific and THAT is never a good thing. In addition, there is no 'playbook' for this virus and by definition 'scientific' is never meant to mean 100% sure, 100% of the time. When more is learned, releasing that information is a gift, not a cause for denial of the entire program. 

But what I am more skeptical of is when seemingly smart folks believe that they have all the information they need, that it can never be upgraded by new information and by god "that's my belief and I'm sticking to it"!

Two last thoughts.... IMO the 'original' mention of 'face diapers' was as tacky and the later one in rebuttal was. And also I will continue to wear a mask and social distance.... especially in Mexico....if asked to by the establishment I am entering, or if I feel it is a good idea both from my own personal well being as well as that of others. 

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11 minutes ago, RickS said:

In addition, there is no 'playbook' for this virus and by definition 'scientific' is never meant to mean 100% sure, 100% of the time. When more is learned, releasing that information is a gift, not a cause for denial of the entire program. 

But what I am more skeptical of is when seemingly smart folks believe that they have all the information they need, that it can never be upgraded by new information and by god "that's my belief and I'm sticking to it"!

BINGO! ALL things of a medical nature evolve as we observe and learn more. Are you not going to have heart surgery or a stent because it wasn't done X number of years ago? Nobody should ever stay in a complete stagnation of knowledge. All of our lives and every single day is an opportunity to learn and evolve.

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What new knowledge caused the belief that masks are no longer needed for the most part among the vaccinated from one week to the next?  I can't find any scientific data or study to support that major shift.  Just policy pronouncements.

References appreciated.

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Just because you can't find it does not mean that it does not exist. And the logic... or lack thereof... that 'something changed from one week to the next' is also flawed.... but it does make for a good 'talking point' thrown in if one is looking to discredit the decisions being made, for whatever reason. 

Let's face it.... you are not going to change your mind about this and similar things, looking for every reason to post that it was bad information to begin with. Others of us are more or less comfortable taking the scientific guidance that is given as a reasonable course of action, given by reasoned professionals for the good of each of us specifically and the population in general. 

 

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IMHO, numerous good posts. Thank you.

I am not an anti vaxer, and have gotten vaccinated. I do find it sad that a lot seems to have turned out to be, over promise and underperform. As RickS said, it too has made me a bit skeptical.

 

Could they not have said: "This is new to every specialist in the world, but they are working on it. At this point the consensus is do, Xxxxx, until we know differently."  Most people would have understood that.

It undermines them, and gives ammo to those who only wish to have more ammo.

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We, who have worked in the medical field know that diagnoses are not absolutes truths.  Sometimes a doctor has to try more than one treatment and sometimes the patient has to get a second opinion to confirm a diagnosis or to find a different cure.  You will always find an incompetent doctor here or there, but for the most part modern medicine has proven itself and most doctors practice it well.

There will always be backseat drivers who think they know more than the doctor and there’s always quacks that will lure you into trying other methods. Right now there seem to be a lot of quacks around. That’s why this pandemic has persisted as much as it has. 

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1 hour ago, Whipstock said:

Could they not have said: "This is new to every specialist in the world, but they are working on it. At this point the consensus is do, Xxxxx, until we know differently."  Most people would have understood that.

Scientists and health professionals have been saying that all along. 

But you can't force people who already have their agenda to listen.

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5 hours ago, AndyPanda said:

Of course it makes sense. Both conditions are to keep your germs and your virus to yourself.

Ok you win. You are vaccinated. According to the latest studies your chance of contracting the covid virus is minimal. Your chance of transmitting it to others is virtually nil. So you will wear a mask for the rest of your life  .. Yes? 

Your reply can not be no because you will transmit germs and viruses into the air around you for the rest of your life. 

Sorry but as Mr. Spock would say your argument is not logical. And it does not make sense for a fully vaccinated person to wear a mask.      I'm not saying that   The CDC is  and I agree.

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10 minutes ago, Jreboll said:

We, who have worked in the medical field know that diagnoses are not absolutes truths.  Sometimes a doctor has to try more than one treatment and sometimes the patient has to get a second opinion to confirm a diagnosis or to find a different cure.  You will always find an incompetent doctor here or there, but for the most part modern medicine has proven itself and most doctors practice it well.

There will always be backseat drivers who think they know more than the doctor and there’s always quacks that will lure you into trying other methods. Right now there seem to be a lot of quacks around. That’s why this pandemic has persisted as much as it has. 

Mostly agree with you post. I don't want to muddy the waters, but the medical consensus has been very wrong at times and even recently been know to bully those who disagree (and are correct in the end). 

A case that comes to mind is the doctor who had to prove he had no ulcer, then give himself one via bacteria. Granted this is a rare occurrence. 

 

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-doctor-who-drank-infectious-broth-gave-himself-an-ulcer-and-solved-a-medical-mystery

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3 minutes ago, mudgirl said:

Scientists and health professionals have been saying that all along. 

But you can't force people who already have their agenda to listen.

I don't believe they have been constant in saying that. 

"Don't wear masks, they don't work. keep them for the professions."

Comes to mind.

 

But, these are the top people in their area. So it should be obvious they are, as a group doing their best and should be listened to.

As someone had mentioned, politics and unfortunately perhaps profits may have entered into the discussions.

 

I feel it is of a disproportionate upside to get a vaccine, wear a mask, and protect yourself and others. 

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11 minutes ago, Whipstock said:

Mostly agree with you post. I don't want to muddy the waters, but the medical consensus has been very wrong at times and even recently been know to bully those who disagree (and are correct in the end). 

A case that comes to mind is the doctor who had to prove he had no ulcer, then give himself one via bacteria. Granted this is a rare occurrence. 

 

https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-doctor-who-drank-infectious-broth-gave-himself-an-ulcer-and-solved-a-medical-mystery

That is how medicine progresses. Most new ideas are met with skepticism until they are proven(this keeps a lot of quacks at bay). Once they are proven, then medicine takes a step forward.

i believe that doctor you mentioned got a Nobel prize for his work.

 

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1 minute ago, Jreboll said:

That is how medicine progresses. Most new ideas are met with skepticism until they are proven(this keeps a lot of quacks at bay). Once they are proven, then medicine takes a step forward.

i believe that doctor you mentioned got a Nobel prize for his work.

 

Yes, I've read that he did.

But who is the quack when the majority mock the correct person?  He was "the quack" up to a certain point. I think we can all imagine his work environment until proven correct. 

Not cherry picking the medical industry, as I feel all industries have similar stories. 

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The whole world has similar stories throughout history. The earth is not flat. And there is still an incredible amount to learn about the mysterious workings of the human body and there's probably more that we don't know than we do know.

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9 hours ago, Mostlylost said:

Ok you win. You are vaccinated. According to the latest studies your chance of contracting the covid virus is minimal. Your chance of transmitting it to others is virtually nil. So you will wear a mask for the rest of your life  .. Yes? 

Your reply can not be no because you will transmit germs and viruses into the air around you for the rest of your life. 

Sorry but as Mr. Spock would say your argument is not logical. And it does not make sense for a fully vaccinated person to wear a mask.      I'm not saying that   The CDC is  and I agree.

I didn't say anything, one way or the other, about wearing a mask or not after being vaccinated. I said, very plainly, masks are good at doing their thing whether you are practicing medicine or not, against your ridiculous statement that there is somehow a difference.

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Now you're posting to yourself? 

If the shoe fits... :D 

Guess what?  This thread is not about you.  It is about the rather startling development, at least for me, that a paper with such a well known agenda and love of government called them out pretty decisively.

I see a lot of skepticism out there about the "science" that supposedly the CDC used in this latest policy shift.  They've been asked publicly to spell out the basis for it and thus far just a lot of rhetoric. 

Oh, and half their staff is avoiding the vaccine.  Isn't that interesting?

It seems I am not the only one that thinks this bunch has a serious credibility issue.  Except maybe here.

 

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56 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

They've been asked publicly to spell out the basis for it and thus far just a lot of rhetoric. 

Another sign of developing dementia is constantly repeating oneself after things have been explained clearly more than once.

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2 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

Now you're posting to yourself? 

If the shoe fits... :D 

Guess what?  This thread is not about you.  

 

It sure wasn´t UNTIL YOU brought me into it with my dementia.  You don´t have to do such a great job of keeping me on the "front page"....LOLOL

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