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Very interesting Op Ed in the Informador this morning


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Yes, as a matter of fact, I am defensive.  I am immune suppressed and a Covid death is horrible (you slowly drown in your own fluids).  I am one you could kill.  Hope you can live with it if you infec

Very good article...emotional but valid.  I think all leaders the world over are trying to balance the physical health and economic health in their own communities.  The mental health aspects have bee

Very much a Catch 22, and also, IMO, a no-win situation. There are hard decisions being made all over the free World. I for one, do not know what I would do today, if I were a free World leader.

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It is a problem that some of us that don't wear blinders have known from the get go. I said it before and say it again. More people and almost all  of these will be poor and people who have lost their income will die than from covid-19.

pedro kertesz

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Very good article...emotional but valid.  I think all leaders the world over are trying to balance the physical health and economic health in their own communities.  The mental health aspects have been neglected a little until very recently as the riots and protests are made more virulent due to frustrations brought on by the never ending pandemic.  Health initiatives make the economic impacts worse and economic downturns make the health impacts worse.  The world is a social community and we need interaction to survive emotionally and economically.  How to balance those things with still climbing virus numbers is a very tough task.  I respect the rights of states here and in the US to react as the majority of citizens wish.  Either way a price will be paid.  Since the start we have been told that the health measures are in place only to flatten the curve and that the virus will continue to sicken and kill and so it does.  Has the curve been flattened enough to let us go back to as normal a life as we all desire?  Can the medical industries handle what is going to happen in the near future?  Can society survive the huge economic hit it continues to take without anarchy becoming all too present?  Can we handle the increase in crime and suicide?   Man,  I'm glad I'm not in charge!  Do the best you can to keep yourselves safe and don't count on everybody else to do the same things you do in those efforts.

Alan

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Very much a Catch 22, and also, IMO, a no-win situation. There are hard decisions being made all over the free World. I for one, do not know what I would do today, if I were a free World leader.

I believe most of us expats, have until recently, missed another World war. In that respect, we have had it good.

In some ways, IMO, this pandemic is WW III. We have an enemy, the virus, that will never be beaten and destroyed, but will be subdued, to rise again in smaller skirmishes.  Here is a prophetic quote:

“The single biggest threat to man's continued dominance on this planet is the virus.” - Joshua Lederberg, winner of the Nobel Prize for Medicine in 1958

In the next 25-years, who do you think will be the survivors/winners?  IMO, those with $$, and those with "connections." They will get first call when the vaccines, "cure(s)" are ready. The rest of us, well, survival of the fittest.

So who do we believe/trust?

American Thomas Jefferson, third U.S. President said: "When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."

From me to all:

Good health.

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I found the comments about the compliance level in GDL interesting and not at all surprising.  (translated)

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Let's be honest: individual responsibility is not the greatest strength of our society.

Let's remember: why did the pandemic come to Jalisco in March? By some travelers, quite well off financially, who decided to live with skiers from countries with epidemics.

And because they were irresponsible, they returned and were not even able to request that they be tested. What was the turning point in Jalisco? The first days of May, the bridges, the celebration of mothers. Despite repeated calls to stay home, only 30% of the people of Guadalajara followed the instructions of the authorities. And we are not talking about people who live daily, but privileged people who decided that they could not confine themselves. Why? Because they always do what they want. For those who live daily and have to bring bread to the table at home, my respects, but for those who have a privileged situation it is an atrocity not to do our part to overcome the pandemic. 

These pandemics are not only about overpopulation they are about the massive amount of world travel and trade with its accompanying exchanges of disease among formerly separated populations.  I find this whole situation a validation of the view that humanity is not going to starve from overpopulation  but rather the side effects of disease, environmental damage and the adverse social aspects of overcrowding will get to us long before starvation does.

 

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Many people whom we admittedly assume are Tapatios based on dress and attitude, walking around this weekend in groups and/or families not even with masks around their chins or holding masks. Typical visitors’ weekend. One house on 16 Septiembre between Revolution and Juan Manuel lake side has had a huge noisy party every Saturday night for weeks, with dozens  (not exaggerating) of well dressed (not shabby) people in their 20s arriving in carloads and singing loudly.....I mention not because likely they are amongst our now 18 cases, but as further testimony to the Guadalajara response we are discussing.  

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Unfortunately it will take those partying 20-somethings giving the virus to their abuelos, who then die, for them to maybe wake up. But then there's always the "It was God's will" excuse.

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2 thoughts...

it would be good if this journalist would also read other main Mex newspapers.  In El Mural today :

"while our governor claims that Jalisco hospitals only show 20 % occupancy, the association of anesthesiologists has a different story : saturated hospitals and impossible to find a bed for the critically ill (covid19) patients....people are dying a drowning dead. " ( other medical staff in Guad claimed the same....I believe them over ANY politician )

https://www.mural.com/libre/acceso/accesofb.htm?urlredirect=/denuncian-medicos-saturacion-en-hospitales-por-covid-19/ar1964895?fbclid=IwAR1oeEXY4gDthL5uVJPQH6WgetXD9N9Srq6Hj6ECC_Fy_zUBXKcsZghL930

And..... all we are doing is delaying anyway.  With so many infected, little respect for precautions and opening up now, before the peak.... sooner or later, most of us will get it anyway.  The last 3 months of confinement have been a total waste of time, money and effort.

Especially taking into account that the vaccin will not be here tomorrow and that most experts expect a 2nd and bigger wave, later this year.

I dont know what the answer is either, but it is what it is. "nature in action"

Yes please, if it is some kind of relief, shoot the messenger.

Rony

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Rony and others of like mind are, IMO, right on.

Since the start, if people had followed the three basic rules, (distance, masks, washing), it might not have turned into a Pandemic, or it might have anyway.

Gene Roddenberry, creator of Star Trek, was a real visionary and many of his episodes touched on current and then future social issues.

"The Mark of Gideon" is the sixteenth episode of the third season of Star Trek, (TOS),  was about overpopulation.

Johann Wolfgang von Goethe said: "There is nothing more terrible to see than ignorance in action." But when people know the rules that will help them, and ignore these rules, it isn't ignorance, it stupidity, selfishness and IMO, a second cousin to being a sociopath.

To each their own, just stay away from me if you won't wear a mask.

 

 

 

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Question is, is the Association, a national group, talking about one thing and the Governor another?  We know that there's a bed problem in and around Mexico City.  Were they addressing this and he was addressing GDL?  I don't want to join the group so I couldn't read the article.  I would look for clarification on this.  Rony?

If the emphasis from the start had been on educating in just those three steps Eric listed rather than shutting down, jamming up the roads, and burdening with difficult paperwork and expensive things of questionable utility, would the level of cooperation be higher?  That is the question I have.  I can't agree that either the locals or the state has handled this well.  And basically the Feds aren't handling it at all.

First you put all those people out of work and drive marginal small businesses to the wall and then you come along with a bureaucratic and costly approach and expect that to work?  IMO it didn't and now to the slightly delayed but definitely game on pandemic we add the further factors of impoverishment of millions, inability to get other vital medical procedures done, and I think at the end of the day it will be clear they compounded the problem.

In any case, what is done is done and in our household we are very focused on personal risk management independent of what others did or might do.  For us, life will start to return to normal when there is a proven vaccine and not before then.

 

 

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15 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

Question is, is the Association, a national group, talking about one thing and the Governor another?  We know that there's a bed problem in and around Mexico City.  Were they addressing this and he was addressing GDL?  I don't want to join the group so I couldn't read the article.  I would look for clarification on this.  Rony?

If the emphasis from the start had been on educating in just those three steps Eric listed rather than shutting down, jamming up the roads, and burdening with difficult paperwork and expensive things of questionable utility, would the level of cooperation be higher?  That is the question I have.  I can't agree that either the locals or the state has handled this well.  And basically the Feds aren't handling it at all.

First you put all those people out of work and drive marginal small businesses to the wall and then you come along with a bureaucratic and costly approach and expect that to work?  IMO it didn't and now to the slightly delayed but definitely game on pandemic we add the further factors of impoverishment of millions, inability to get other vital medical procedures done, and I think at the end of the day it will be clear they compounded the problem.

In any case, what is done is done and in our household we are very focused on personal risk management independent of what others did or might do.  For us, life will start to return to normal when there is a proven vaccine and not before then.

 

 

when I first read the article this morning ( when there still was free access ), ... this association is clearly Jalisco based and referred to the situation in Guadalajara.

Aside from the article, I also have non official sources on this ( other medical staff in Guad, who for obvious reasons will not always publically confirm ) and there is also the chart ( incomplete but "telling")  below, circulating on social media.

I sure hope that all 3 sources are wrong and the governor right, but allow me to strongly doubt it

103415209_148600956800003_7319608877520548819_n.jpg

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The chart is only private hospitals.  Is there a list of all the government hospitals including the new installations in parking lots that are only for covid patients?  There are a great number of beds available in government hospitals reserved only for covid patients. 

The official count this morning was 1265 active cases in Jalisco   with 27% in hospitals = 338 hospitalized.  if we take out Puerto Vallarta numbers (assuming they would not be in GDL hospitals) of 49 active of which 26% or 13 are hospitalized. That would mean that if every other hospitalized person in Jalisco (less PV) is in a GDL hospital that would be 338-13=325 total hospitalized.

Earlier this month I  read there were over 500 beds available in the GDL  area govt. hospitals reserved only for Covid patients. (That was not counting private hospitals). 

So either the DRs are wrong or are only seeing the situation in private hospitals or the government numbers that are published daily are wrong. 

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7 minutes ago, Mostlylost said:

The chart is only private hospitals.  Is there a list of all the government hospitals including the new installations in parking lots that are only for covid patients?  There are a great number of beds available in government hospitals reserved only for covid patients. 

The official count this morning was 1265 active cases in Jalisco   with 27% in hospitals = 338 hospitalized.  if we take out Puerto Vallarta numbers (assuming they would not be in GDL hospitals) of 49 active of which 26% or 13 are hospitalized. That would mean that if every other hospitalized person in Jalisco (less PV) is in a GDL hospital that would be 338-13=325 total hospitalized.

Earlier this month I  read there were over 500 beds available in the GDL  area govt. hospitals reserved only for Covid patients. (That was not counting private hospitals). 

So either the DRs are wrong or are only seeing the situation in private hospitals or the government numbers that are published daily are wrong. 

only one detail....even the federal government says about their own numbers, that you likely have to multiply it all by 10 or 12 to get the actual number ( also taking into account that VERY little testing is being done )

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2 hours ago, adolphsj said:

We just officially hit 20 per Héctor (Muni Chapala).....party on, Wayne....

Wonder where Hector gets his numbers. The official number published this morning 14 Active, 1 death, 3 recuperated. 

A Chapala 6-14.JPG

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Just now, Rony said:

only one detail....even the federal government says about their own numbers, that you likely have to multiply it all by 10 or 12 to get the actual number ( also taking into account that VERY little testing is being done )

Probably more cases yes. ..   but the number  quoted created the percentage of the reported cases  The number of hospitalized would remain the same. 

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6 minutes ago, Mostlylost said:

Wonder where Hector gets his numbers. The official number published this morning 13 Active, 1 death, 3 recuperated. 

A Chapala 6-14.JPG

the extra numbers come from "radar jalisco Chapala" ( source = La Página ). 20 in total.

And I would be very surprised if that association of doctors would only talk about private hospitals ( since they mention that people are dying because of lack of beds )

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Radar Jalisco is included in the numbers reported to the federal government  So that would be odd unless they didn't get the information to the feds in time last night.

And the only info I find on the Radar Jalisco website for Chapala is 1 death. 

In any case we will see the oficial numbers again tomorrow.

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1 hour ago, Mostlylost said:

Just found the Jalisco govt hospital information. As of last night they are reporting  535 ventilators available in the state in govt hospitals... 

yes, feel free to believe any side you would like.  It is not my goal to convince anybody.....just stating " the other side of things ".  Like most Mexicans, I tend to be more sceptical of any government source ( they probably meant ceiling ventilators/fans ) ...especially when talking about covid19 ( even to the international press, Mex governmentS have lost all credibility in this ). What a mess they made !   I am behind the real people in the field.  I have read and heard enough to believe their side.  Up to you or not, to dig deeper

And....I dont do wishful thinking.  That is not how my mind works....however harsh reality may be 

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4 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

 

In any case, what is done is done and in our household we are very focused on personal risk management independent of what others did or might do.  For us, life will start to return to normal when there is a proven vaccine and not before then.

 

 

Seems to me this is the best that anyone can do, until...   if you are concerned. If you are not, just go about your business the way you think you should. No one is going to control the behavior of others without "martial law". Stay safe.

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3 hours ago, Mostlylost said:

As of last night they are reporting  535 ventilators available in the state in govt hospitals...

85% of Covid patients who get put on ventilators die.

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The OP's article identifies some critical considerations which those who rush to mandate or proscribe the actions of others would prefer to ignore. Ultimately, I am in a country which was generous enough to allow me to live here. Its citizenry will make the rules. I am free to follow them or leave. It's disheartening, though, to see so many similarly-situated people focus on virtue signalling tethered to where they came from instead of where they are. I get it: many of them are scared, in high risk groups, and feel powerless. I am sad for them and wish them the best. But I will not cave to their asinine demands. And neither, apparently, will Mexico. Things are bad and likely to get worse. Please do what you want to protect yourself. But leave the moralizing at the border.

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6 hours ago, Sorn said:

The OP's article identifies some critical considerations which those who rush to mandate or proscribe the actions of others would prefer to ignore. Ultimately, I am in a country which was generous enough to allow me to live here. Its citizenry will make the rules. I am free to follow them or leave. It's disheartening, though, to see so many similarly-situated people focus on virtue signalling tethered to where they came from instead of where they are. I get it: many of them are scared, in high risk groups, and feel powerless. I am sad for them and wish them the best. But I will not cave to their asinine demands. And neither, apparently, will Mexico. Things are bad and likely to get worse. Please do what you want to protect yourself. But leave the moralizing at the border.

Very well put indeed.  But the fact is we are not powerless, actually since most of us do not have to rely on employment to live we have much more power over our personal risk than the general population,.  We can control our interactions with others to a much higher degree than younger people who must work and be exposed much more than us.  The flip side of course is that we are in the high risk category and hence more vulnerable.

The basic measures of mask wearing around others, social distancing and sanitation are very well proven and readily implemented by people in our situation.

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