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Reported today 

After the long weekend for the commemoration of Labor Day, the state government reported that a total of 25 thousand 52 people were checked in the three sanitary filters installed at accesses to the Guadalajara Metropolitan Area.

According to the report, between Friday the first and until Sunday May 3, 8,264 vehicles were checked by personnel from different agencies that worked on the filters installed on the roads to Chapala, Manzanillo and Puerto Vallarta. It was reported that no case of people presenting symptoms of respiratory disease was identified.

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From the Chapala Liaison's FB page: 

 
Quote

 

Yes, the Sanitation checkpoints are being maintained. If one has a local address verification they are being let in. Yes, sneaky people are getting in . We are planning to ask the National Guard to plug these holes. Case in point, the director of the Chapala high school lives in Guadalajara and tried to come in this weekend. He spent three hours in jail.

 

 

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He came on official business and there will be a lawsuit. There is no law that states that you can detain and beat citizens for exercising their right to travel. 

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2 hours ago, Bisbee Gal said:

From the Chapala Liaison's FB page: 

I have gone through  that sanitation filter at least 6 times with the same person who drives me to GDL to the doctor. The driver is the only one checked for temperature and address They don't even bother with me. How effective is that?

 

 

 

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How can they call the National Guard to protect expats against Mexican citizens? Which law would they invoke?

Someone is smoking some loco  weed.

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For those who don't understand the reasons for the inconveniences this pandemic has caused, try thinking of it as a natural disaster.  When wildfires threaten areas, folks are told to evacuate for their own safety as well as the safety of first responders.  Same true when hurricanes or floods are imminent.  Extreme measures are sometimes used.  Your rights to free travel, as well as other "normal condition" rights, are temporarily and legally curtailed...for your own good.  Masks will not cure Covid19 and most masks won't protect you from getting it if directly exposed.  They will however, keep you from spreading it while you are not showing symptoms.  Have respect for others.  From the start, it has been clearly stated that masks and stay at home orders are only to flatten the curve so facilities and folks in the trenches are not overwhelmed all at once.  Even with those precautions in place this Covid is still spreading.  Try to imagine what it would be like now if those precautions had not been made.  Try to imagine if those precautions along with a pandemic team in place  with adequate supplies including test kits had been available and utilized in February.  Just saying...This pandemic should also remind us all how important working class spending is to the economy.  Consumer spending, not billionaires, keep the economy going so maybe more stimulus money should be used to trickle up not down (which has never worked very well.)   Alan

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The problem with your analogy, Alan,  is it equates short term and localized with long term and general.  The reason this is labeled a pandemic is it is world wide.  The reaction to it is crushing employment world wide too.  By contrast to local disasters where resources from unaffected areas are called in to help, the resources are being crushed everywhere in this situation.  

This is not a local natural disaster that happens and passes and recovery can start immediately.  It is a long term situation.  The fallacy in the current response to this is two fold:  First, it assume if we just lock things down for a relatively short period it will go away.  It will not because as has been found where ever it is researched, it is much more general in the population than the low levels of testing indicate. As soon as the short term lock downs are lifted and people start mingling again, the reported infection rate starts back up.  We are already seeing reports from Europe and China confirming this.

This bug is referred to as a "novel" corona virus.  There is very little natural immunity in the population, somewhat similar to what was the case in the natural population of Mexico when the Spanish arrived.  However unlike that situation, the data clearly show the young and healthy have a very low infection and death rate.  The seriously vulnerable portion of the population is only a few percent and their characteristics are pretty well known at this point.  And we also know from past experience with this family of viruses is that it is very persistent.  This is why it is being admitted now that the thing will be around for the coming fall and winter and beyond until an immunity is developed, natural or by vaccine.

To develop a resistance in the population there are basically two alternatives:  Natural, where a sufficient number contract a disease and recover and no longer spread it, or artificial as by a vaccine.  Both work in the same manner to stimulate antibodies.   Vaccines generally, but not totally, create immunity with minimal side effects.  The disease, too, creates a range of side effects.  Some get it, show mild or no symptoms and recover.  Some experience it at the level of a bad case of the flu.  And some, mostly the elderly and those with other serious health issues, get it to the point of requiring hospitalization and many die.  This is why we see data which shows that some half of the death toll has occurred in "care" homes and Italy reported that nearly all of it deaths were among those with significant accompanying health issues.

The lock down would make sense if we were weeks away from having and beginning to disseminate an effective vaccine.  However, that is not the case.  The most optimistic projections are year end or shortly thereafter.  Even a basic understanding of economics should be sufficient to understand this has profound public health implications which would eclipse the relatively modest death rate (when compared to historic bacterial and viral pandemics).  This is why you see organizations like the U.N. warning that continuing in this course will result in mass starvation. 

The curve has been flattened at the expense of stretching it out and destroying the very economic resources needed to fight the disease.  The only reason I don't think this will reach the level of total economic disaster is because the public will rise up and demand to go back to work.  That is already happening, either overtly or covertly.

I agree we can lessen the problem with sensible precautions like masks, social distancing and avoiding gatherings.  However, shutting down small businesses that maybe serve a couple of people at a time while big boxes are allowed to continue to draw large groups to one place is not only socially and economically destructive of local communities it is just plain stupid.  Operating check points from 9-5 that cause hours long traffic back ups while they are gone the rest of the time is just plain stupid.

Whether it be a short term natural disaster or a longer term public health disaster we have to accept there's only so much that can be done to ameliorate the damage.  What we don't want to do is have the cure be worse than the disease and IMO we are making that mistake here.

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Dan, I agree that all natural disasters are different in the approach required to battle them.  But they all require putting you personal needs aside for the good of the society at large be it local or worldwide. 

 

The scope of this virus is something that the world has not had to deal with in modern times so everybody is doing the best they can.  I also agree that it is now time to start to blend our current situation into what what we hope will be more normal life.  With the exception of places that have been hit hard, like New York, I think we will be OK.  There will be cases here in our area but everybody I've talked to seems to think it is time to start tapering off on the controls and accept the consequences.  I think science and government have done about all they can do.  Now it is time for everybody to stay calm, wear masks, don't hug or shake hands, stay away from large crowds as much as possible, and stop waving guns around and demanding your rights to get a haircut while proudly displaying confederate flags and Nazi symbols!  Be aware of your neighbors who are terrified because they have preexisting health issues which put them at risk.  Put on your big boy pants and remember that the world does not revolve around only you.  And for goodness sake, please don't make it any harder for health care workers to do their jobs!   Put stimulus money into the hands of those who will spend it and not into the pockets of billionaires and big corporations who will pay bonuses and buy stock.  That is the right thing to do to get the economies going again.  I agree that vaccines will be required and that even with a vaccine, the virus is here to stay so get used to it.  Maybe tell China to stop the wet markets where wild game including bats, is available for consumption by a population which doesn't know any better.  Might slow down the next round of pandemics.  Alan

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By all means get the local economy going by removing  the draconian measures, against the businesses, put in place here and keep the blockade and only let those pass that are part of the economy and other infrastructure HERE. Not the tourists from the city heaviest hit by covid-19 in Jalisco.

 

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That's a nice emotional argument Alan but it doesn't address the actual reality here or the points made in my post.  This is not a personal discussion between you and me so please don't turn it into that.  I'm a great deal more vulnerable to this because of COPD and Asthma so skip the condescending lecture.  I would suggest I'm much more willing to take my chances if my neighbors can live and work than some here are.  Instead of emotionalizing the discussion let's see you specifically address the points I am making.  

Putting on one's big boy pants includes using one's brain instead of being run by emotions.  Too much emotion and fear here and not enough looking at the medical science and the morphology of the bug and tailoring an informed response to that.  And then understanding there's only so much that can be done and nature will take its course.   

If you think the growing resistance is just about waving confederate flags I would suspect your sources of information are more propaganda than actual news.  I realize that trotting out the buzz words makes the similar minded here quite happy but it doesn't contribute to the understanding of what is going on.  For example, do you think the growing resistance in Europe are out there waving confederate flags?  People are losing everything by the millions because of these draconian and questionable measures.   

The desperation and the poverty are what are growing exponentially now.  

It is easy for us to sit around and pontificate about why that should be OK with them as we continue to get our government checks in the mail every month.  If we are really adults we should accept the fact that we are the ones who need to take the most protective steps and not force them on everyone.

Happy that is all fine and good but remember a very big part of the local economy and the employment for many of our Mexican neighbors is based on tourism.  We have hundreds of restaurants that used to support thousands of people.  Where will they go now for work?

Here's a good read that discusses the Scandinavian experience with two different approaches.  I personally think the Swedes have it mostly right.  

https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/28/europe/sweden-coronavirus-lockdown-strategy-intl/index.html

 

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The Chapala area is one of the wealthiest municipalities in Mexico, and the bulk of its income is from retired expats. For that reason, and rightly so, the local government wants to protect the older population which is the most vulnerable population. That’s why they have set up “sanitation roadblocks”, and are sending people away who can’t prove residency.

The problem is that Mexico has a long history of authoritarian government, which heavy-handedly imposes restrictions on human rights in an arbitrary manner. Restrictions on travel and freedom of movement is a basic right for citizens under the Mexican Constitution, and the sanitation roadblocks are technically illegal.

 The Director of the Chapala High School was arrested because he was exercising his constitutional right.  He has a home in Guadalajara and one in Chapala.  The police can only request proof of residency, not demand it.  They arrested him and kept him overnight because of his “lack of respect for authority”. There is no law against that.  

The expat liaison telling you that they will call in the National Guard is nonsense.  And how would that look?  Restricting Mexicans access to their homes in order to protect the foreign community?  There is always a lack of common sense when these “draconian measures” are put in place.  The police should be prepared to explain why coming from a large city with many cases of coronavirus, to a fragile community of elderly people is life-threatening to the population. Publicizing this on television and in the newspapers and handing out leaflets at the access points to Chapala would go a long way in easing the tensions and avoiding the arrest and detentions of citizens exercising their constitutional rights.

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I agree that it is now time to start to return to normal.  We all assume that there will be more illness and death as a result.  Most I've talked to (in Spanish as well as English) believe it is worth the risk.  I do not think that the only protesters are the Nazi supporting $%&/()s...they are just an example of ones who need to put on their big boy pants and quit being $%&/()s.  I'm not sure if I had been in charge of the world what, if anything, I would have done differently.  Just saying emergencies require some planning, some sacrifice, some honesty, and some personal responsibility.  Not sure where we disagree, Dan.  No need to take everything personally...by anybody including me.   Alan

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Sounds good to me.  I don't see things returning to normal, really, until there is a vaccine and it is widely applied enough to minimize new cases even with more normal human interaction.  Plus, I expect that it is similar enough to flu viruses that it will intensify again in the late fall and winter, particularly in places where people are mostly shut in because of weather.  From what I can read, it appears the authorities are all ready planning for this.

 

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18 minutes ago, Taaffe said:

The Chapala area is one of the wealthiest municipalities in Mexico, and the bulk of its income is from retired expats. For that reason, and rightly so, the local government wants to protect the older population which is the most vulnerable population. That’s why they have set up “sanitation roadblocks”, and are sending people away who can’t prove residency.

The problem is that Mexico has a long history of authoritarian government, which heavy-handedly imposes restrictions on human rights in an arbitrary manner. Restrictions on travel and freedom of movement is a basic right for citizens under the Mexican Constitution, and the sanitation roadblocks are technically illegal.

 The Director of the Chapala High School was arrested because he was exercising his constitutional right.  He has a home in Guadalajara and one in Chapala.  The police can only request proof of residency, not demand it.  They arrested him and kept him overnight because of his “lack of respect for authority”. There is no law against that.  

The expat liaison telling you that they will call in the National Guard is nonsense.  And how would that look?  Restricting Mexicans access to their homes in order to protect the foreign community?  There is always a lack of common sense when these “draconian measures” are put in place.  The police should be prepared to explain why coming from a large city with many cases of coronavirus, to a fragile community of elderly people is life-threatening to the population. Publicizing this on television and in the newspapers and handing out leaflets at the access points to Chapala would go a long way in easing the tensions and avoiding the arrest and detentions of citizens exercising their constitutional rights.

In all respect you are sorely misinformed. 

First   Chapala is not one of the wealthiest municipalities in Mexico, actually far from it.  

Second     the bulk of the income is certainly not from retired expats.  

Third the sanitary checkpoints (not roadblocks) are an operation of the state of Jalisco on major highways in an out of Guadalajara and at some of the Jalisco state borders. The only people they turn around are people with signs of "respiratory illness".  ( of the 8,000+ vehicles checked  last weekend not one  had a reason to be turned around.) The sanitary checkpoints absolutely have nothing to do with the Chapala roadblock at the entrance to Chapala.

Fourth the Chapala roadblock is similar to roadblocks in hundreds of towns all over Mexico. The majority of those towns have no foreign population. So the statement that Chapala's actions are to protect the foreign population is totally unfounded.  

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I think that you missed my point. Stopping people from transitting from one area to another is illegal, and from what I have seen in Mexican newspapers and facebook, people are challenging the local governments´ over-riding the constitution in an arbitrary manner.

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24 minutes ago, Paco Loco said:

what time of day do the roadblocks start and what time do they close?

The fewer people that know that the better.  

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The authorities, after learning that many folks have figured out the times, are talking about expanding and or changing the times of these checkpoints,  or so I read either here or on another forum.

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On my weekly trip to Guadalajara around 10:00 am traffic less than normal no back ups steady flow. Going back a virus check point going north into Guadalajara near San Agustin traffic back up to Buena Visita miles and miles people standing outside their cars. 

I guess I just missed it going into Guadalajara the set up. My trip back around 1:00 uneventful other than feeling sorry for the people waiting. 

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Today I went to Costco on Lopez Mateos from El Chante. No roadblocks. Traffic flow was good. Costco opened 20 minutes early and lineups were soon very long at the tills. 

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It never fails to amaze me how  a topic can take on so many forms, tangents  and discussion. Here we are getting into issue of Mexican Constitution...Really

How so many people flay and parry on the rights or wrong of this incident reminds me of Don Quixote ...

It is no different to when"WE" get stopped by the Transitos and they decide to tow away our cars...It is wrong the Constitution says this.....well you can debate the rights or wrong of the alleged infraction until your blue in the face...meantime your vehicle is disappearing in to the sun set 

For me social distancing during this CRISIS "trumps" the MX constitution..Stay away and Stay safe

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22 hours ago, Bisbee Gal said:

From the Chapala Liaison's FB page: 

 

 

Im never happy to hear of police mis treating anyone but...maybe he said something about thier Mother and or maybe they didnt believe he needed

to work over the week end........every coin have two sides, i once had a director of my high school who most everyone wanted to beat up.,,just sayin

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6 hours ago, Mostlylost said:

In all respect you are sorely misinformed. 

First   Chapala is not one of the wealthiest municipalities in Mexico, actually far from it.  

Second     the bulk of the income is certainly not from retired expats.  

Third the sanitary checkpoints (not roadblocks) are an operation of the state of Jalisco on major highways in an out of Guadalajara and at some of the Jalisco state borders. The only people they turn around are people with signs of "respiratory illness".  ( of the 8,000+ vehicles checked  last weekend not one  had a reason to be turned around.) The sanitary checkpoints absolutely have nothing to do with the Chapala roadblock at the entrance to Chapala.

Fourth the Chapala roadblock is similar to roadblocks in hundreds of towns all over Mexico. The majority of those towns have no foreign population. So the statement that Chapala's actions are to protect the foreign population is totally unfounded.  

Mostly is absolutely correct, as he mostly is. :D

The purpose of "stay at home" was to allow states and cities that were ill prepared (hello NY, NJ, Michigan, Mexico, etc. ) a chance to try and catch up from lack of preparedness and keep the hospitalizations down until those places could get caught up and prepare. Many places are ready now to handle it and more about treatment is known now. (Mexico, time will tell) The virus was never going to be killed by "stay at home", and when things open up, will continue to spread and people will die, as they do in every pandemic. It will be slowed by a vaccine, but that could be 10 months, or years away. It will never die out, just like the regular flu. but will mutate every year. People want to return to their lives and are willing to take the risk that only about 2% will lose their lives, mostly those with other health conditions. In my case, I am Immune Compromised for the last 4 years, Diabetic, obese (because of meds), Asthma, High blood pressure. And, 77 years young ! Got them all. :D So, I am as careful as I can be. I do not expect the World to stop and people to give up their lives to protect me. They have a right to their lives and so do their families, as they choose, not as I choose for them. We have lives a long time, those of us my age, and should have enough common sense to know how best to take care of ourselves by now. There will always be some risk in life, and we have accepted it until now. We have lived through a Lot in our lifetime, and we will make it through this, too !!

 

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