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Many countries are experiencing this because of a lack of human outdoor and automobile activity. Seems.they like it, or never experienced this before. Could this be the big unexpected break in climate change? Also more talk, by rational respected people about universal income. Are we there yet?

 

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13 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

Many countries are experiencing this because of a lack of human outdoor and automobile activity. Seems.they like it, or never experienced this before. Could this be the big unexpected break in climate change? Also more talk, by rational respected people about universal income. Are we there yet?

 

And who is going to pay for universal income?

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I am not going to debate universal income with you. There are a lot of sources on this subject. As far as I understand, the proposals do not do away with income tax. So if you live on a goverment pension the supplement might be taxed. If you just live on the supplement, likely with a group of others, then you are unlikely to.be taxed at all.

It.is the environmental initiatives that you and I should be worried about. If you drive a gasol ine or diesel truck, you would have to pay the same annual rate as a rich man driving his Ferrari. Using gasoline for cheap transportation is one the things killing this world.

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Socialism works perfectly... until those with the money run out after all has been taken from them. . It's been tried over and over. Unfortunately many do not study history

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Socialism has been working very nicely for the rich top 1%. The rest of us are experiencing what they practice and we like it. Let’s do it more often. Amazing what a little virus has taught us.

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14 minutes ago, Mostlylost said:

Socialism works perfectly... until those with the money run out after all has been taken from them. . It's been tried over and over. Unfortunately many do not study history

Maybe those doing there so called studies should expand to a global basi s, and maybe get a big surprise. Even China, a Communist country the whole world wants to trade with, has had to to reduc e their GDP from 6% to 3% with these tough times. The U.S.A. has not.broken 2% for quite some time, and th e economic reports for 2020 are likely to.be brutal.

What about the tens of thousand of workers about to be laid off and unempl oyeable by AI and factory robots. Too.bad, So.Sad, Move Along, Life Sucks?

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Whether people work or not, if they consume, breed and throw stuff out the environment is going to take the hit.  Universal income doesn't change that.  It used to be popular in Sci Fi to envision a world where everything was done by robots and everything was free.  Unfortunately, soon everyone had everything and things stagnated.  The particular story I am thinking of solved this problem with a "potlatch" where everyone got together once per year and destroyed all their stuff.

The population has doubled in my lifetime.  And a much greater number enjoy a much higher standard of living which also translates into a lot more energy and resource consumption and pollution of all kinds.  I suspect that most of those here who toy with socialism live in nice detached homes with all the conveniences and with incomes produced by capitalism that socialism can't begin to produce on a large scale.

The solution I'll suggest is not to lock down the world and have everyone go slowly mad and starve.  

The devil is in the details.

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The problem is both obvious and scary as hell:  Scenario #1:  Keep the lockdown going and save lives.  This could result in economic disaster for the average person or family and even cause death by starvation.   Scenario #2:  Open up the economy and provide income to workers, but have an increase in the death rate.  There is also the fact that businesses are not necessarily going to hire back the people who were laid off until the increase in business justifies it.  Some businesses, such as retail, will never recover.

There is no nice, comfortable Scenario #3.  There are those who suggest a Socialist style  system in which the government supports all who need it.  The complications of that include the question of what happens when the government has printed an unsustainable amount of soon-to-be-worthless paper money. 

The reality is that we are soon to see the equivalent, or worse, of the Great Depression of the past.  Do we have an FDR available?  Then there's the fact that some of his most effective programs to help the population were found to be unconsitutional.  As Mainecoons said:  "The devil is in the details".

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I am sorry, maybe the universal income thing is a distraction. The point I am truly trying.to make is all over the world the families and individuals, living out their quarantine, then discovering the air is clean again, birds, fish and critters are coming back again, etc. They then decide they prefer this type of life, and ponder and scheme to make it happen. Of course for others the kids are driving them up.the.wall, or they crave social ( or sexual) discourse and can't wait to get back to work, even if it involves a daily stinking commute.

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Discourse works for only spoken or written communication, while intercourse works for spoken, written or sexual.......

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It's amazing to me how quickly the planet is seeming to recover from a lack of human activity. Horribly smoggy cities now have clear skies, the Venice canal is clean and clear,  blue efflorescence has appeared in the ocean near shore in Acapulco for the first time in 60 years. It's a huge wake-up call as to what human activity results in and how quickly it appears to recover. 

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Yes Mudgirl, you got it! Inspirational? How to sustain this joy all over the world?

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Therein lies the problem:  All this good for the environment has been at the cost of having an economic meltdown.  The question for people remains: Is it worth it to them?

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Just now, gringal said:

Therein lies the problem:  All this good for the environment has been at the cost of having an economic meltdown.  The question for people remains: Is it worth it to them?

It has been at the cost of having an economic meltdown only because humans have been doing things that ignore the impact on the environment, because doing so makes life more "convenient" or leads to larger profits. It's not impossible to revisit how we are living and make changes which still allow for a good economic situation, and don't pollute to the extent that we have been polluting. Clean energy, people walking instead of jumping in the car to drive 3 blocks, more people working from home, which means they don't have to drive as much. There's no reason why new techologies and a change in people's lifestyles has to result in economic disaster. I'm not saying it will be easy to change our ways, but it's certainly neither impossible, impractical, nor economically devasting.

 

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54 minutes ago, gringal said:

Therein lies the problem:  All this good for the environment has been at the cost of having an economic meltdown.  The question for people remains: Is it worth it to them?

I don' t know what to say. Possibly an " Age of Aquarius" in a rational world. The Hippies wnd Flower Children seemed to flourish with very little money. The.key seems to be communal efforts, to build, to harvest, to raise their children. There will always be the ones who leave the communal efforts because they want much, much more. Very many of them became leading entrepreneurs and CEOs, often because they have curiosity and.unfettered minds (Elon Musk), most heavily support charitable causes.

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2 hours ago, CHILLIN said:

I am not going to debate universal income with you. There are a lot of sources on this subject. As far as I understand, the proposals do not do away with income tax. So if you live on a goverment pension the supplement might be taxed. If you just live on the supplement, likely with a group of others, then you are unlikely to.be taxed at all.

It.is the environmental initiatives that you and I should be worried about. If you drive a gasol ine or diesel truck, you would have to pay the same annual rate as a rich man driving his Ferrari. Using gasoline for cheap transportation is one the things killing this world.

This is the most insane piece of gibberish I have read here ar anywhere else. I suggest that it might be a good idea for you to move to Venezuela.

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2 minutes ago, Alpha1 said:

https://www.thebalance.com/universal-basic-income-4160668 

UBI’s proponents see it as an answer to a fundamentally changed employment market. A guaranteed income would ensure financial security, allow financial freedom, remove the “poverty trap”, and support more path choices. 

OK...And who pays for the many millions who would rather sit at home (subsidised of course) and watch Netflix all day? 

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5 minutes ago, gringohombre said:

This is the most insane piece of gibberish I have read here ar anywhere else. I suggest that it might be a good idea for you to move to Venezuela.

No, What are YOU doing here. On these forums all you are able to express is hatred and half baked, redneck political theories. Now many people see Canadian Liberal and New Democratic Parties ( provincial) as socialist. And here in Mexico, where YOU have chosen to live, many people consider AMLO to be a socialist, and that he is driving the country in that direction, with nothing to stop him. So why are YOU living in a socialist country?

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7 minutes ago, gringohombre said:

OK...And who pays for the many millions who would rather sit at home (subsidised of course) and watch Netflix all day? 

And who pays the pensions and social security so you can do the same? People still working, that's who. What is the difference between taxing a factory robot, versus some poor shlub trying to make ends meet

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16 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

No, What are YOU doing here. On these forums all you are able to express is hatred and half baked, redneck political theories. Now many people see Canadian Liberal and New Democratic Parties ( provincial) as socialist. And here in Mexico, where YOU have chosen to live, many people consider AMLO to be a socialist, and that he is driving the country in that direction, with nothing to stop him. So why are YOU living in a socialist country?

As far as I know this is still a democratic country...some here wish it wasn't and are pushing that way, as well as El Norte, however I have hopes that the "Silent Majority" will continue to come back to the center and KEEP North America functioning democracies.  

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4 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

And who pays the pensions and social security so you can do the same? People still working, that's who. What is the difference between taxing a factory robot, versus some poor shlub trying to make ends meet

WHAAAAAAT??????

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45 minutes ago, gringohombre said:

WHAAAAAAT??????

You didn't know that. I don' t how you can poke your head out the door,  save alone your comments on this forum. Social Security and Medicare are paid by payroll taxes.While you are working they deduct them. When you stop working the people still working pay payroll taxes and fund the system. They hope that when they retire, there will be enough younger people paying in to pay them. I suggest you move into your Reagan era silent.majority.mode, with an emphasis on SILENT.

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I'm probably making a big mistake but I'm going to put my 2 cents in here. Something no one ever brings up is "too many people". The world is overpopulated and that is the biggest driver of most of our problems. You name the problem and overpopulation is usually the reason. Now, hit me with the "who decides attack".

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1 hour ago, CHILLIN said:

You didn't know that. I don' t how you can poke your head out the door,  save alone your comments on this forum. Social Security and Medicare are paid by payroll taxes.While you are working they deduct them. When you stop working the people still working pay payroll taxes and fund the system. They hope that when they retire, there will be enough younger people paying in to pay them. I suggest you move into your Reagan era silent.majority.mode, with an emphasis on SILENT.

What sort of SSA and Medicare benefits will the robots receive? Do they get the right to vote?

And Bernie Madoff is in prison for a ponzi scheme while Social Security is the biggest ponzi scheme in the world.

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