Citizenship

[Daniel Suchodolski]

Has anybody been required to sing or saying the Mexican national anthem as part of their citizenship test?

[Mostlylost]

Not a requirement for over 60. I do not know if it is on the test for under 60, but of the questions I have seen it was not included. 

Over 60 you only need to speak Spanish.  The Spanish test is as follows:

First you are given an article from some publication to read. About 4 or 5 paragraphs. Then you are given  a page with 5 questions multiple choice 3 answers possible on each. You can refer back to the article as many times as you want. You circle the correct answer for each question.

Next you are handed a picture. You need to write 3 sentences describing what is in the picture. Each sentence must be a minimum of 5 words and punctuated correctly.  Can be very basic ie;  Hay dos personas debajo de los arboles. 

I have been told that in GDL they say there is a time limit. That is not legal but they do it. In Mexico City there is no time limit. You need to go to Mexico City for your police report. You can do it all in one day. 

[Daniel Suchodolski]

Thank you.that was very helpful.

[Sonia]

http://www.soniadiaz.mx/citizenship.html

[snowyco]

Yes.

There are some SRE offices where the Delegado REQUIRES  ...  "la nacionalidad mexicana por naturalización" ** applicants "... to recite (from memory) the Chorus, verses 1 & 2,  and sometimes verse 10 of the Himno  ~  regardless of age.

When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring  applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish.

As a successful applicant for Mexican Citizenship... I fondly remember: 
" ... Mas si osare un extraño enemigo ... "
and
" ... tus sienes de oliva 
de la paz el arcangel divino

que en el cielo tu eterno destino
por el dedo de Dios se escribió ... "


Hint:  You'll likely never hear the verb "osare" in public, ever ... except in the Himno.

**   Later edit:   Per helpful suggestions below,  I have replace my earlier typo with the "la nacionalidad mexicana por naturalización"  official   terminology.

 

[More Liana]

1 hour ago, snowyco said:

Yes.

There are some SRE offices where the Delegado REQUIRES  ...  Ciudadana Naturaleza applicants ... to recite (from memory) the Chorus, verses 1 & 2,  and sometimes verse 10 of the Hymno  ~  regardless of age.

When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring Ciudadana Naturaleza applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish.

As a successful applicant for Mexican Citizenship... I fondly remember: 
" ... Mas si osare un extraño enemigo ... "
and
" ... tus sienes de oliva 
de la paz el arcangel divino

que en el cielo tu eterno destino
por el dedo de Dios se escribió ... "


Hint:  You'll likely never hear the verb "osare" in public, ever ... except in the Himno.

 

It's ciudadanía por naturalización, Snowyco. 

La naturaleza is nature--the beach, the trees, the mountains, etc.

[snowyco]

On 12/6/2019 at 9:47 AM, More Liana said:

It's ciudadanía por naturalización, Snowyco. 

La naturaleza is nature--the beach, the trees, the mountains, etc.

Thanks  for that important correction ....

Fortunately, spelling naturalización was not part of SRE's test. 

The knowledge of Spanish & Mexican culture test? ... Giving a 20 minute narrative (all in Spanish)  describing all key big events, dates, and full names of Mexican history from Prehispanic times through the expropiación de petroleo  was part of passing the SRE test. ... Fortunately, our Delegado did not split hairs ... nor expect perfect Spanish.   ... He said he was looking for functional Spanish.




More Liana ... What was your experience like when you went through SRE's  naturalización proceess?

Were you required to recite part ... or all of our Himno?

[Mostlylost]

All the more reason to take your exam in Mexico City the same day you get your national police report. They follow the rules 100% no surprises. 

Take an early flight get your police report then on to SRE. There is place right across the street to get photocopies of the police report.  In at 10AM, sign the register. Over 60 will be called first. I was out by 12:30.  

[Mostlylost]

On 12/6/2019 at 8:25 AM, snowyco said:

Yes.

There are some SRE offices where the Delegado REQUIRES  ...  "la nacionalidad mexicana por naturalización" ** applicants "... to recite (from memory) the Chorus, verses 1 & 2,  and sometimes verse 10 of the Himno  ~  regardless of age.

When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring  applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish.

As a successful applicant for Mexican Citizenship... I fondly remember: 
" ... Mas si osare un extraño enemigo ... "
and
" ... tus sienes de oliva 
de la paz el arcangel divino

que en el cielo tu eterno destino
por el dedo de Dios se escribió ... "


Hint:  You'll likely never hear the verb "osare" in public, ever ... except in the Himno.

**   Later edit:   Per helpful suggestions below,  I have replace my earlier typo with the "la nacionalidad mexicana por naturalización"  official   terminology.

 

I am reading the requirements for naturalization and  the Reglamento de la ley de Nacionalidad . I can not find the clause you are referring to giving Delgados  "broad descretion"   Perhaps you could cite the Chapter number and article number. 

                                                   

  (As published on the SRE website which seems to be word for word Chapter 3 of the law regarding naturalization published by SRE )

REQUIREMENTS  (close translation)

• 1. Be of legal age and in use of their civil rights;
• 2. Submit original and copy of the DNN-3  , which must be filled in by machine or by hand with black ink and legible print;
• 3.Exhibit original and two photocopies of the card issued by the Ministry of the Interior proving the condition of stay of temporary resident, or permanent resident, with which the interested party proves his legal stay (Art. 14 RLN), accordingly, the residence in the country for five immediate years prior to the date of the application, which must be valid for a minimum of six months, after the submission of the application, from which the Unique Population Registration Code (CURP) is derived;
• 4. Deliver a certified copy and two photocopies of the foreign birth certificate, issued by the corresponding Civil Registry office, duly legalized by the Mexican diplomatic or consular representative of the place of issue or, if applicable apostilled by the competent authority, as well as Translated into Spanish by expert translator authorized by the Judiciary of any federative entity of the national territory. The applicant who has been recognized as a refugee may be exempted from this requirement by the Ministry of the Interior (COMAR);
• 5. Present original and two photocopies of all the pages of the foreign passport or, where appropriate, of the valid identity and travel document;
• 6. Present a letter, under protest of telling the truth, clearly stating the number of exits and entrances you have made to and from the country within two years prior to the submission of the application, for the computation of absences, referred to in article 21 of the Nationality Law, (accompany two photocopies);
• 7. Submit proof or certificate of no criminal record issued by competent authority at federal and local level depending on the place of residence, in original and photocopy;
• 8. Prove that you can speak Spanish, that you know the history of the country and that it is integrated into the national culture.
• 9. Deliver two equal photographs. recent color, passport size (4.5 x 3.5 cms.), with white background, front, without glasses, bare head;
• 10. Present proof of payment of corresponding fees, in original.

 

 NOTE: To prove what is stated in section III of article 19 of the nationality law, those interested in obtaining Mexican nationality by naturalization will be applied a questionnaire on culture and general history of Mexico, for this purpose it is recommended to enter the Next link where you will find reference bibliography.

Also, in case of not passing such exams, the interested party will have to wait a minimum of ten business days to resubmit the naturalization application and the application of the exams. The public servant will inform the interested party that he will be able to present the exams up to two occasions and in case of not passing them, he will have to wait until within a year, counted from the day following the application of his last exam, to enter a new application for naturalization.

In the case of a foreigner whom the Ministry of the Interior considers to be a refugee, as well as in the case of minors and persons over sixty years of age, it will be sufficient to prove that they speak Spanish through the language test.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[snowyco]

6 hours ago, Mostlylost said:

I am reading the requirements for naturalization and  the Reglamento de la ley de Nacionalidad . I can not find the clause you are referring to giving Delgados  "broad descretion"   Perhaps you could cite the Chapter number and article number. 

                                                   

  (As published on the SRE website which seems to be word for word Chapter 3 of the law regarding naturalization published by SRE )

REQUIREMENTS  (close translation)

• 1. Be of legal age and in use of their civil rights;
• 2. Submit original and copy of the DNN-3  , which must be filled in by machine or by hand with black ink and legible print;
• 3.Exhibit original and two photocopies of the card issued by the Ministry of the Interior proving the condition of stay of temporary resident, or permanent resident, with which the interested party proves his legal stay (Art. 14 RLN), accordingly, the residence in the country for five immediate years prior to the date of the application, which must be valid for a minimum of six months, after the submission of the application, from which the Unique Population Registration Code (CURP) is derived;
• 4. Deliver a certified copy and two photocopies of the foreign birth certificate, issued by the corresponding Civil Registry office, duly legalized by the Mexican diplomatic or consular representative of the place of issue or, if applicable apostilled by the competent authority, as well as Translated into Spanish by expert translator authorized by the Judiciary of any federative entity of the national territory. The applicant who has been recognized as a refugee may be exempted from this requirement by the Ministry of the Interior (COMAR);
• 5. Present original and two photocopies of all the pages of the foreign passport or, where appropriate, of the valid identity and travel document;
• 6. Present a letter, under protest of telling the truth, clearly stating the number of exits and entrances you have made to and from the country within two years prior to the submission of the application, for the computation of absences, referred to in article 21 of the Nationality Law, (accompany two photocopies);
• 7. Submit proof or certificate of no criminal record issued by competent authority at federal and local level depending on the place of residence, in original and photocopy;
• 8. Prove that you can speak Spanish, that you know the history of the country and that it is integrated into the national culture.
• 9. Deliver two equal photographs. recent color, passport size (4.5 x 3.5 cms.), with white background, front, without glasses, bare head;
• 10. Present proof of payment of corresponding fees, in original.

 

 NOTE: To prove what is stated in section III of article 19 of the nationality law, those interested in obtaining Mexican nationality by naturalization will be applied a questionnaire on culture and general history of Mexico, for this purpose it is recommended to enter the Next link where you will find reference bibliography.

Also, in case of not passing such exams, the interested party will have to wait a minimum of ten business days to resubmit the naturalization application and the application of the exams. The public servant will inform the interested party that he will be able to present the exams up to two occasions and in case of not passing them, he will have to wait until within a year, counted from the day following the application of his last exam, to enter a new application for naturalization.

In the case of a foreigner whom the Ministry of the Interior considers to be a refugee, as well as in the case of minors and persons over sixty years of age, it will be sufficient to prove that they speak Spanish through the language test.

Mostly Lost,
What was your experience going through the Naturalized Citizenship process here in Mexico?

As the SRE Delegado pointed out to me:    (as I noted above)   There can MORE to the test & requirements than the simple enumerated items in the    Ley de Secretaria Exterior ...

"  When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring  applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish. "

Mostly Lost,
I look forward to reading your experiences, and learning what good  first-hand  advice you can offer on how to become a naturalized citizen of our beautiful Mexico ... 

I especially look forward to you pointing out the passages in the  Ley de Secretaria Exterior   that prohibit a Delegado from requiring applicants to recite 2, 3, or 4 verses & the Chorus of our Himno.
 

Can you at least tell us what 10 questions they asked you,    Mostly Lost ??

 

[Mostlylost]

On 12/6/2019 at 8:25 AM, snowyco said:

Yes.

There are some SRE offices where the Delegado REQUIRES  ...  Ciudadana Naturaleza applicants ... to recite (from memory) the Chorus, verses 1 & 2,  and sometimes verse 10 of the Hymno  ~  regardless of age.

When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring Ciudadana Naturaleza applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish.

As a successful applicant for Mexican Citizenship... I fondly remember: 
" ... Mas si osare un extraño enemigo ... "
and
" ... tus sienes de oliva 
de la paz el arcangel divino

que en el cielo tu eterno destino
por el dedo de Dios se escribió ... "


Hint:  You'll likely never hear the verb "osare" in public, ever ... except in the Himno.

 

Make it easy and when you are in Mexico City for your police report do the citizenship test at SRE the same day. The follow the rules 100% there

[Mostlylost]

20 hours ago, snowyco said:

Mostly Lost,
What was your experience going through the Naturalized Citizenship process here in Mexico?

As the SRE Delegado pointed out to me:    (as I noted above)   There can MORE to the test & requirements than the simple enumerated items in the    Ley de Secretaria Exterior ...

"  When we read the "Ley de Secretaria Exterior",  it's clear that the local delegados have broad discretion to set their own requirements,  especially in cases like requiring  applicants to prove sufficient appropriate knowledge of ~ Mexico,  ~of Mexican governance, ~ of Mexican culture, &  ~ of Spanish. "

Mostly Lost,
I look forward to reading your experiences, and learning what good  first-hand  advice you can offer on how to become a naturalized citizen of our beautiful Mexico ... 

I especially look forward to you pointing out the passages in the  Ley de Secretaria Exterior   that prohibit a Delegado from requiring applicants to recite 2, 3, or 4 verses & the Chorus of our Himno.
 

Can you at least tell us what 10 questions they asked you,    Mostly Lost ??

 

I don't know where or when you did the process. 

I applied in 2019 in Mexico City the same day I obtained my federal police report.

I doubt there is any passage in the Ley de Secretaria Exterior saying a delgado can not change the law.  No public official has the right to change federal law to suit themselves.  It requires an act of congress to change such a law, and a signature of the president.   I can find no passage in the law that says local officials can ignore the law.  

Has it happened in a federal office in Mexico? ...Clearly, however at that time you need to show them a copy of the law, or ask to see a copy of the law and politely ask them to show you where it says what they are asking for is in the law.  If they continue to it is usually because they are looking for mordida > Just politely say you do not wish to file a denuncia and..... Could we just follow the law as it is written?  That is what my Mexican relatives do. 

My experience??

Without an appointment I entered the SRE office and was instructed to put my name on the list. Being over 60 I was one of the first called.  A young lady reviewed my application and documents. The only questions asked were regarding information on the DNN-3. She did not like the form I used for entries & exits and gave me one which I filled in (2 copies) while she checked the rest of my documents. Then I was given the bank instructions and went to the bank. When I returned I went right to the same lady. No waiting in line.

When she was finished she told me to take a seat and they would call my name for my Spanish test. She mentioned that because I was over 60 I did not need to take the knowledge test. 

After about 20 minutes I was called to a different counter. A lady stated again that because of my age I only needed the Spanish test.

I was handed a page with a story of how a small village near Mexico City celebrates the day of the dead. On the reverse of the page there were 5 multiple choice questions about the story. You circle the correct answer. You can refer to the story as many times as you want. When I was done the lady took my test to an office and returned in about 1 or 2 minutes. She said I passed all 5 correct. 

She handed me a randomly selected picture and a page for me to write 3 sentences about what was in the picture. She cautioned me to capitalize and punctuate correctly. I wrote 5 or 6 word sentences. Then she took the paper to an office again returning very quickly saying I had passed the Spanish exam and to take a seat.

At no time was I asked anything regarding culture or history of Mexico. No 10 questions. None of that is called for in the law if you are over 60. It is very clear in chapter 3 of the law. 

After about 20 minutes they called my name and handed me a paper with the special web page, my username, and password to check the status of my application. She said it would take about 6 months to see the decision. 

When I was approved (almost exactly 6 months) I received an email with instructions. I emailed and requested that my documents be sent to Guadalajara. In about 2 weeks I received a phone call from SRE in GDL saying I could come in any time, no appointment needed.

I went to GDL. Was greeted promptly and finished the process in about 30 minutes. I told the young man that I was going to apply for my passport at that moment and asked he keep the papers on his desk while I did so. ( if not you will wait 2+ weeks to receive your passport)

Went to the passport office and completed everything.  When I was called to the pickup window the man said it would take 2 weeks because they had to verify the naturalization document. I said I just received it, and the man was holding it for verification. TThe man  walked me back to verify that my papers were ok. He got a signature,  and I left with my passport the same day. 

 

 

[snowyco]

4 hours ago, Mostlylost said:

I don't know where or when you did the process. 

I applied in 2019 in Mexico City the same day I obtained my federal police report.

I doubt there is any passage in the Ley de Secretaria Exterior saying a delgado can not change the law.  No public official has the right to change federal law to suit themselves.  It requires an act of congress to change such a law, and a signature of the president.   I can find no passage in the law that says local officials can ignore the law.  

...

" No public official has the right to change federal law to suit themselves. "

Notice that this is your idea. .... I never wrote anything even close to your imagined proposal.

I only note that the local Delegados have discretion in how they determine whether an applicant has an adequate knowledge of the Spanish language, and knowledge of Mexican culture.  The local SRE Delgados' discretion to add local requirements clearly has never required your proposed "changing federal law" ... 

Notice that this discretion of Delegados of SRE to set special local rules,  also applies at ALL Mexican Consulates.   That's why the requirements for applying for Residente Permanente and Residente Temporal vary from one Mexican Consulate to the next.  Example: The Mexican Consulates in Houston, Dallas & across California have very different requirements for Residente Permanente visas ... than the Consulates in Laredo, Portland Oregon, Chicago, and Phoenix.

That's also why some Delegados at SRE offices around Mexico set different requirements for applicants for Naturalized Citizenship ... like requiring them to be able to recite 1 or 2 or ever 3 verses of the Himno. ... So ... people reading this are best served to CHECK with their local SRE office to find out what that office expects.

[daisy2013]

Guadalajara SRE office were great when I applied for my citizenship, especially when done without a facilitator. 

[Mostlylost]

Again with all respect you haven't disclosed to the board members where or when you applied for citizenship.

I know people over 60 who in 2019 applied in Guadalajara, Mexico City, Toluca, and Colima. Not one of them had to answer questions regarding culture or history, nor recite verses from the  national anthem. In each case all were given the exact same written language exam as I was given (a story with multiple choice questions and a picture to describe with three sentences).   I read of one applicant who was given a time limit on his written test in Guadalajara, bhowever that was under the previous administration.  

If a local official asks a person over 60 questions regarding Mexican history or culture as a requirement he is violating the law as written. 

It is specifically stated in the law that for applicants over 60 there is only a Spanish test required.

"In the case of a foreigner whom the Ministry of the Interior considers to be a refugee, as well as in the case of minors and persons over sixty years of age, it will be sufficient to prove that they speak Spanish through the language test" 

Perhaps instead of arguing with me you could just tell the members of the board which office has the requirement for a person over 60 to answer questions and recite from memory the national anthem.  That would be helpful.

 

 

 

[More Liana]

On 12/7/2019 at 8:22 AM, snowyco said:

Thanks  for that important correction ....

Fortunately, spelling naturalización was not part of SRE's test. 

The knowledge of Spanish & Mexican culture test? ... Giving a 20 minute narrative (all in Spanish)  describing all key big events, dates, and full names of Mexican history from Prehispanic times through the expropiación de petroleo  was part of passing the SRE test. ... Fortunately, our Delegado did not split hairs ... nor expect perfect Spanish.   ... He said he was looking for functional Spanish.




More Liana ... What was your experience like when you went through SRE's  naturalización proceess?

Were you required to recite part ... or all of our Himno?

Sorry to be so late with an answer, I've been out of town and not looking at the board.

I received citizenship about 15 years ago, when the process was different from the way it is now.  I applied for and received citizenship in the state of Colima, which AT THAT TIME was more amenable to foreigners' requests for citizenship.  AT THAT TIME, SRE in Jalisco (specifically in Guadalajara) was generally unwilling to process such requests.   I have no idea what the situation is like right now.

Because I handled my citizenship forms and appointments without a facilitator and entirely in Spanish, I was exempted from the Spanish competency portion of the exam.  And there were no Mexican history questions, and no recitation or singing of the Himno.  The Colima office pretty much considered me to be Mexican already, just needing to go through the process to formalize it and receive the Acta de Naturalización.  AT THAT TIME, as I mentioned, the entire process was very different from the way it seems to be now.  

My personal process took about 18 months, due in large part to the Federal SRE offices in Mexico City having lost my paperwork for about 10 months.  Finally a lawyer, friend of a  friend of mine, went over there and "prodded" them, and they found my paperwork.  Citizenship came about 6 months later.

The year after I received citizenship, SRE asked me to go to Colima to give a speech at the swearing-in of that year's crop of new citizens.  Unfortunately the swearing-in was canceled two days prior to its date and no new citizens were received that year--not in Colima or any other state in Mexico.  I know several Jalisco people who were denied citizenship at that time, due to internal problems in the SRE.  I believe that those people received citizenship the following year.

That's the year that the whole application and testing process was changed, everywhere in Mexico, and as far as I know those "new" rules still apply.  

Not much help from me, I'm afraid.

[Mostlylost]

8 minutes ago, More Liana said:

Sorry to be so late with an answer, I've been out of town and not looking at the board.

I received citizenship about 15 years ago, when the process was different from the way it is now.  I applied for and received citizenship in the state of Colima, which AT THAT TIME was more amenable to foreigners' requests for citizenship.  AT THAT TIME, SRE in Jalisco (specifically in Guadalajara) was generally unwilling to process such requests.   I have no idea what the situation is like right now.

Because I handled my citizenship forms and appointments without a facilitator and entirely in Spanish, I was exempted from the Spanish competency portion of the exam.  And there were no Mexican history questions.  The Colima office pretty much considered me to be Mexican already, just needing to go through the process to formalize it and receive the Acta de Naturalización.  AT THAT TIME, as I mentioned, the entire process was very different from the way it seems to be now.  

My personal process took about 18 months, due in large part to the Federal SRE offices in Mexico City having lost my paperwork for about 10 months.  Finally a lawyer, friend of a  friend of mine, went over there and "prodded" them, and they found my paperwork.  Citizenship came about 6 months later.

The year after I received citizenship, SRE asked me to go to Colima to give a speech at the swearing-in of that year's crop of new citizens.  Unfortunately the swearing-in was canceled two days prior to its date and no new citizens were received that year--not in Colima or any other state in Mexico.  I know several Jalisco people who were denied citizenship at that time, due to internal problems in the SRE.  Those people received citizenship the following year.

That's the year that the whole application and testing process was changed, everywhere in Mexico, and as far as I know those "new" rules still apply.  
 
Not much help from me, I'm afraid.

You are correct about the process being very different from 15 years ago. The law was amended in 2009, 2014, and 2018.

In fact before 2018 there was no requirement for those over 60 to take a Spanish test. However if an applicant was unable to respond in Spanish to a basic question or instruction  the application was sometimes stopped and the applicant had to return at a later time.

 

[More Liana]

13 hours ago, daisy2013 said:

Guadalajara SRE office were great when I applied for my citizenship, especially when done without a facilitator. 

Good, I'm glad to hear it.  Way back then they had no interest in it.

[daisy2013]

More Liana also my citizenship took 3 weeks to finalize.   Things sure have changed.