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On 5/5/2019 at 3:37 PM, happyjillin said:

Anti-vaxers constantly read bogus nonsense and try to convince themselves that it's the only legit info and then bombard the rest of us with that BS. The earth is flat. Careful you don't fall off the edge.

I said I thought it was interesting.  I didn't indicate that I was trying to convince myself of anything, nor did I bombard anyone with it, just posted the link. Some of us like to read differing viewpoints on various topics- we don't all have a closed mind-set. Nor assume that because someone thinks a certain way on one topic, that they believe the earth is flat, or anything else. 

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Mudgirl makes a good point:  It doesn't hurt to hear many viewpoints on any subject, and to suggest that those who favor one point of view over another believe in a flat earth is just a silly insult.  Some people are convinced that most health problems today are partially due to living in an environment polluted by poisons in the air and in our food, and I think they have a good chunk of the truth.  Who knows the whole truth of why we have infectious disease epidemics? Whatever the cause may be for measles or polio, there is a vaccine available to prevent it. The majority of people agree that's a good thing and represents progress in the medical field.  

IMO, the public spirited thing for anti-vaxxers to do would be to isolate themselves and their children from the rest of the population, but that's not likely to happen in the real world. 

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Why do you insist that anti-vax people isolate themselves? If you are so certain that vaccines protect you then you should say "that's their business". There are thousands of virus and bacteria around us at all times that there are no vaccines for ,we are swimming in a sea of germs. the only protection is a healthy immune system and we believe that vaccines undermine a healthy system. And who knows what else is in the vaccines as we know our government and medical authorities have been known to do things secretly "for your own good". There is a vaccine court that handles bad outcomes from vaccines and they hand out $$$. They weren't around when my Dad was paralysed for 2 years after a flu shot in 1977...

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I don't "insist".  I suggest.  I'm much more opinionated on the subject of what the government is doing to allow environmental regulations to be disbanded and allowing animals to be given hormones and such which wind up in our food supply.  Sorry about what happened to your dad, but in some cases, a flu shot prevented a serious disease from killing a person who has a weakened immune system through no fault of his/her own.  In our polluted environment, developing a healthy immune system is more of a challenge than ever.

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3 hours ago, cafemediterraneo said:

Why do you insist that anti-vax people isolate themselves? If you are so certain that vaccines protect you then you should say "that's their business". There are thousands of virus and bacteria around us at all times that there are no vaccines for ,we are swimming in a sea of germs. the only protection is a healthy immune system and we believe that vaccines undermine a healthy system. And who knows what else is in the vaccines as we know our government and medical authorities have been known to do things secretly "for your own good". There is a vaccine court that handles bad outcomes from vaccines and they hand out $$$. They weren't around when my Dad was paralysed for 2 years after a flu shot in 1977...

cafemediterraneo, I believe you are quite correct to be concerned about vaccinations. Nobody should be able to prevent us from contracting whatever infectious disease strikes our fancy.  Say, smallpox, or whatever you think might go well with the drapes. Do you honestly believe that the well-being of one individual outweighs the health of an entire society? Do you know that The Black Plague killed almost 100 million people in the 14th. century. How many people do you know of that have died from it? Anybody? Anybody at all? Didn't think so. Science: It's not just for movies, anymore.

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17 hours ago, MarkWebles said:

cafemediterraneo, I believe you are quite correct to be concerned about vaccinations. Nobody should be able to prevent us from contracting whatever infectious disease strikes our fancy.  Say, smallpox, or whatever you think might go well with the drapes. Do you honestly believe that the well-being of one individual outweighs the health of an entire society? Do you know that The Black Plague killed almost 100 million people in the 14th. century. How many people do you know of that have died from it? Anybody? Anybody at all? Didn't think so. Science: It's not just for movies, anymore.

when did you get a black plague vaccine? And small pox was a scratch on the skin, not an injection. It was last given in 1969...The scientific methods that we so revered have been sold out to the highest bidder and statistical analysis has become the butt of"lies, half lies and statistics". We don't contract illness from belief in it or not but by our daily habits and care.

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" We don't contract illness from belief in it or not but by our daily habits and care. "

Is that supposed to apply to all communicable diseases?  That might be a true statement if you live in a sealed bubble rather than the real world.

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Apparently trying to dialogue with the anti-vaxers on this board is like  arguing religion,politics or simply pounding ones head against a brick wall. Unfortunately as part of a larger group they are dangerous. Terrorists of sorts. I am never going to darken the door of a certain cafe.

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13 minutes ago, happyjillin said:

Terrorists of sorts. I am never going to darken the door of a certain cafe.

I was planning on it but risking my health is the reason I choose not to visit Africa too.

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22 hours ago, utilitus said:

And what about antibiotics?  Make America Gangrenous Again!

It isn't necessary to either accept or reject something across the board in every situation. Intelligent and open minded people inform themselves as much as possible and are able to make choices for themselves based on their research, not their pre-conceived notions. 

The development of antibiotics was a wonderful thing. And there are many situations where they are entirely warranted. Many people choose to use natural methods of treating health issues, such as diet, vitamins, herbal remedies, and exercise, but are also ready to bring in the heavy guns if necessary. Doctors used to wantonly prescribe antibiotics for almost every illness a patient came to them about. The thinking was that even if it was a virus, which the antibiotics would have no affect on, it made the patient feel better to walk out with a prescription. That resulted in many bacteria becoming immune to the antibiotics, superbugs, etc. So now doctors, at least in some places, exercise more caution in doling out these drugs. 

Likewise, there are some diseases which can have devastating effects or are absolute killers. Vaccinating for smallpox, which was a horrible and fatal disease, makes total sense, as does vaccinating for polio. But just because pharmaceutical companies come up with a vaccine for something, doesn't mean it's necessary or desirable to run right out and get shot up with it. Most of us of a certain age had measles, chicken pox, and other common childhood diseases, parents had "chicken pox parties" so all the kids in the neighborhood got it and got over it at the same time, we all survived, and while a few might have suffered some complications, it generally wasn't any big deal.

Many people understand not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and prefer to make informed choices and don't see everything as black or white.

 

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2 minutes ago, mudgirl said:

It isn't necessary to either accept or reject something across the board in every situation. Intelligent and open minded people inform themselves as much as possible and are able to make choices for themselves based on their research, not their pre-conceived notions. 

The development of antibiotics was a wonderful thing. And there are many situations where they are entirely warranted. Many people choose to use natural methods of treating health issues, such as diet, vitamins, herbal remedies, and exercise, but are also ready to bring in the heavy guns if necessary. Doctors used to wantonly prescribe antibiotics for almost every illness a patient came to them about. The thinking was that even if it was a virus, which the antibiotics would have no affect on, it made the patient feel better to walk out with a prescription. That resulted in many bacteria becoming immune to the antibiotics, superbugs, etc. So now doctors, at least in some places, exercise more caution in doling out these drugs. 

Likewise, there are some diseases which can have devastating effects or are absolute killers. Vaccinating for smallpox, which was a horrible and fatal disease, makes total sense, as does vaccinating for polio. But just because pharmaceutical companies come up with a vaccine for something, doesn't mean it's necessary or desirable to run right out and get shot up with it. Most of us of a certain age had measles, chicken pox, and other common childhood diseases, parents had "chicken pox parties" so all the kids in the neighborhood got it and got over it at the same time, we all survived, and while a few might have suffered some complications, it generaqlly wasn't any big deal.

Many people understand not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and prefer to make informed choices and don't see everything as black or white.

 

Anti-vaxers are sheep with closed minds who have read fake science or had lectures from hollywood stars . all of it has been exposed  by REAL scientists and medical professionals as fake so why bother reading any of it. I have written training materials for doctors,was an executive in a big pharma corp. I have what is called experience and studied more scientific papers and journals than you can shake a stick at including what you call natural methods. It appears that you and your consortium of anti vaxers on this board are the ones with closed minds, as you like to put it, feeding yourselves the pablum of phony science. Real doctors do not prescribe antibiotics for virus infections that's just more anecdotal BS passed by people who know nothing of what they speak or have an axe to grind against legit medicine.

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I totally agree with you mudgirl. 

There are a number of variables when it comes to vaccines and not all are the same. As long as the old tried and true vaccines WITH NO CHANGES to their contents are used then, hopefully, people are safer. Even then it depends on your own immune system and anyone whose immune system is compromised should check information extra carefully. 

As far as antibiotics go, Doctors ARE killing the goose that lays the golden eggs. For now, the organisms that causes Bubonic Plague and Leprosy are easily defeated. Broad spectrum antibiotics are the worst. That's like using a gatling gun when you need a sniper. Do the culture and find out what the organism is and THEN prescribe the most directly effective antibiotic. 

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56 minutes ago, mudgirl said:
58 minutes ago, mudgirl said:

...Intelligent and open minded people inform themselves as much as possible and are able to make choices for themselves based on their research, not their pre-conceived notions...

 

Unfortunately they are usually making that decision for a minor child and everybody else in the community.

 

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My late father in the 1960s and 70s did original research at UC San Francisco that led to the now common drug-drug interaction data bases, as well as the protocols for automatically reviewing drug patient usage records.  Decades of case outcome data and statistics (with which I am not personally familiar) continuously accrue, documenting, among other facts, Mudgirl et al.'s points about various forms of drug resistance, which were always theoretically expected.  Here in northern California, anyway, professionals tend to be serious, sincere, careful, competent and capable of quite subtle cognitive nuance, going where the evidence and best current professional practice lead them.  One of my professors in grad school at Berkeley was famous for developing the idea of 'cognitive authority' which describes, among other things, how even sophisticated academic discourse can be led down a path some limited distance before the paradigm gets rattled and replaced (T.S. Kuhn was one of his own dissertation advisers).  Trump, antivaxxers, ZeroHedgers, etc represent what happens when the development of such belief "systems" occurs among that half of the population with two-digit IQs...

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Mud girl, and probably others, are forgetting that there are two kinds of measles, one is the disease most of us contracted as children. The other is much more dangerous, like chicken-pox vs. small-pox. "They are two different viral diseases. Measles, which has been spreading in the United States in recent months, is rubeola. German measles is rubella. Rubella causes a milder illness than measles, but it is of particular concern because if a pregnant woman becomes infected, the virus can cause severe birth defects."

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It depends on whether the truth is forthcoming and from where it is coming. Pandremix was NOT tested but people were told it was.

https://www.buzzfeed.com/shaunlintern/these-nhs-staff-were-told-the-swine-flu-vaccine-was-safe

https://www.theguardian.com/science/2017/feb/09/ministers-lose-fight-to-stop-payouts-in-swine-flu-jab-narcolepsy-cases

So, after reading these two links, does it not give you pause to do more research? The percentage of those affected is small compared to the number of people vaccinated. But, I can tell you first hand how devastating Narcolepsy with Cataplexy can be since I have lived with it for 34 years.

As I said previously, vaccines that are KNOWN and proven are one thing. The flu vaccine? meh. It's a guesstimate at best as to which flu strains will be prevalent in any given year.

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It is much easier to enforce compulsory vaccinations and the like in countries with universal health care. Germany, for example is introducing a 2,500 Euro fine and unvaccinated are not allowed in public schools or hospitals.

Taken to extremes, I am reminded of a great SciFi series produced and filmed in Canada. One major premise was that the government provided full health care, but only if they were allowed to introduce eugenic selection. Eugenic selection is thought to be able to reduce 50% of all human diseases, obviously a huge financial benefit to a society, but a tricky ethical one. Those wishing to have children would be researched and the agency would decide the genetic makeup of the sperm and egg. Those  that refused this, seeking natural childbirth/selection, had to pay all medical costs for that child's lifetime. The other alternative, was to move an unwalled part of the country and live as sort of rebels. Eventually the rebels grew in massive amounts.

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1 hour ago, MtnMama said:

Mud girl, and probably others, are forgetting that there are two kinds of measles, one is the disease most of us contracted as children. The other is much more dangerous, like chicken-pox vs. small-pox. "They are two different viral diseases. Measles, which has been spreading in the United States in recent months, is rubeola. German measles is rubella. Rubella causes a milder illness than measles, but it is of particular concern because if a pregnant woman becomes infected, the virus can cause severe birth defects."

What would lead you to assume I am forgetting, or unaware of the distinction? I had both when I was a child, my children also had both. Yes, rubella was milder in the severity of the symptoms, and I'm also well aware of the risk for pregnant women. There are also other forms of measles, one of which is known as 5th Disease.

I don't understand why those who don't agree with another automatically make the assumption that they're ignorant.

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