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Hud, I've said in past posts that I come here for the entertainment, never for information. Watching you flounder around trying to look insightful is pure comedy gold. I really think you should consider a go-fund-me page so as to afford concentrating on this inchoate comedic art form you've created. Though, in retrospect, it seems maybe Gilligan beat you to it. Good thing for short memories, don't you think? 

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We don't recognize science and all it's "claims" here. I recall that Maincoons has posted here some links to sites proving that all of science is a lie, except when it isn't. Seemingly, none of us hav

You sure have a hard-on for non-sequitur and tu quoque fallacies, don't you? Whether I drive a car, or burn old car tires for heat, or over fish the ditch in my backyard, as is my wont, in no way dist

So many philosophers, so few scientists.

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51 minutes ago, MarkWebles said:

Hud, I've said in past posts that I come here for the entertainment, never for information. Watching you flounder around trying to look insightful is pure comedy gold. I really think you should consider a go-fund-me page so as to afford concentrating on this inchoate comedic art form you've created. Though, in retrospect, it seems maybe Gilligan beat you to it. Good thing for short memories, don't you think? 

Actually, Mark, I posted that for your benefit, as I knew you couldn't resist getting personal with me (doesn't take you much does it, Mark?) :D  Someone here suggested you find a mirror, maybe you should take that suggestion, you might have at least a little success there. Not getting much here. are you?  Bless your heart, Mark !

 

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The world needs more like Greta. This cuts right to the heart of the conservative facade. Family, morality, security. Well, for some, but never for those who insists on running about with all those intolerable differences. Personally, I think the idea behind the 1973 movie Soylent Green needs to be revisited: not for the protein, we got plenty - too much, really -  but to cull the intransigent status quo defenders, and perhaps speed-up the lines at Walmart. Really, people, stop acting surprised when the cashier tells you that you actually have to pay for your diapers.

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Nothing like a little emotion to make the loose ends and questions from the skeptics go away.  Cute.  People arguing from emotion trotting out little kids to make their case. :D

Still let's agree that for the past 100 years or so it has been getting gradually warmer and the increase in CO2 is probably causing much if not most of that.  And let's agree that the CO2 is coming from human activities and farting cows which people quite like to eat.  I don't see the science as settled as you do, particularly when it comes to future predictions (how many of those "the world will end in 10 years, the Arctic ice will be gone in 10 years, the Polar bears will all die, etc. etc.) but that really doesn't impact the discussion of how to stop the steamroller now.

Actually what the world needs is more practicality and less chicken little from the grown ups and people who could actually offer reality based solutions.  Let's see if you can offer any remotely achievable ideas to deal with just these two hard truths:

1.  In a world of 8 billion people dependent on fossil fuels for the vast majority of their energy and the food they eat, and in the face of the reality that alternative energy sources can't replace this huge installed capacity (ask the Germans) let alone provide the operational stability and load responsiveness need for practical energy generation, just how do you replace fossil fuel generation (hint NG systems are more efficient but still emit carbon)?  Remember, the emotion driven also won't tolerate nuclear power plants.

2.  In a world where the other 90 percent want the cars, appliances, climate control and the freedom and plenty that ample energy grants how do you say no to them?  Little girls may not understand that things have gone far beyond where you can cut the 10 percent anywhere near enough to make a difference but adults should.  Do you honestly believe the Chinese, the Indians, the Mexicans, everyone else in the developing world gives a shit about this or would tolerate being told they can't have the stuff we have because of it?

Here is the reality:

image.png.712bbac04a2a1374d6235cbaab121aad.png

https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2013/12/heres-why-developing-countries-will-consume-65-of-the-worlds-energy-by-2040/282006/

You see Mark and Alex, you all are arguing about the deck chairs and we are trying to get you to focus on exactly how you could stop this sinking ship that the first world has already lost control over.  As you ponder this, remember the facts I posted earlier:  None of the G20 is close to reaching the goals they set for themselves, only several have actually reduced, significantly including the U.S. and Europe, and the German drive for clean energy has been an expensive flop requiring them to turn the coal burners back on.  China has eclipsed the U.S. in both pollution and coal burning and they and India are slapping up fossil fueled generators as fast as they can. 

The developing world is running the show now and carbon emissions are going straight up.  Because no matter how you slice it, the only source of reliable electric power in huge quantities that can be operated 24/7 in tune with loads, is coal and NG generation.

So, Mark, if you can actually stop insulting people long enough to think about solutions and offer some concrete thoughts on the topic you might actually contribute to the discussion.  Consider also that if you really want to persuade us to your point of view, the ad homs and straw men are accomplishing exactly the opposite. 

 

 

 

 

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35 minutes ago, alex45920 said:

Whatcha gonna do about that?

I doubt MC can do anything about that, or you, for that matter. A better response might be you telling us how we get China, Mexico, etc., to do something about it, don't ya think?

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1 minute ago, Jim Bowie said:

I doubt MC can do anything about that, or you, for that matter. A better response might be to tell us how we get China, Mexico, etc., to do something about it, don't ya think?

Lead by example?

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11 hours ago, AngusMactavish said:

Lead by example?

We already are and it is being ignored.  Look at the numbers again and the graphs below.  U.S. almost flat over nearly 30 years, the rest UP, some explosively.  Now what?

12 hours ago, alex45920 said:

MC: So far, I have chosen to ignore your irrelevant questions, which are based upon erroneous information, outdated talking points and outright propaganda.

....

Think I'll just continue to do that.

Yes Alex we already figured out you can't address very relevant questions so no problem.  There's nothing erroneous about the data on carbon generation, it certainly is inconvenient to the narrative that blames the few and ignores the many. 

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Washington Post Alex, one of yours.  Don't you believe them?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2018/12/05/new-grim-milestone-growth-carbon-dioxide-emissions-across-world/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.f8b004151971

It's a lot easier to wax emotional than it is to look at the hard reality  Sorry being asked to explain how you are going to stop global warming by crippling the countries already doing something about it pisses you off.  Nothing personal.  Good luck saving the planet with staged little girl videos.  :D

 

 

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It's the dependence on CO2 data that turns some of us off. If you look at the graphs of temperatures over the years and when CO2 occurs it follows the temperature rise. So it may be an effect not a cause. Personally I haven't driven a car since 1973 and haven't flown for 12 years. I am against the dependence on hydrocarbons and the society built around that model, but we have at least two things occurring, pollution and the cycles of the sun. Good luck affecting the second.  The CO2 model is setting us all up for being taxed to breathe since we're carbon based life forms. More dangerous is the methane from cows and ancient pockets that are being thawed. And wild fires like we had in the USA this year put a lot of carbon back in the system.  Also the "dust extinction" from bombs throwing powdered soil,concert,etc into the atmosphere from our country's wars. Not to mention the Chem Trails where particles of aluminium,barium,and who-knows-what-else are being sprayed into the sky---anyone want to discuss coal fly ash emissions? And deforestation that changes the atmospheric flows.  Not happy with your reference to "staged little girl videos" whatever that is,is  demeaning, a form of bullying for people you don't agree with.  . The sun will have the last word and we can do nothing more than not defoul our own nest and keep aware and mobile in case it impacts where we live.

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Sorry cafe you don't like the reference to the girl video and it has nothing to do with bullying.  It has everything to do with arguing to emotion instead of to fact.  People that age simply do not have the maturity to understand technically complex issues and are very vulnerable to being put up to parroting the bias they are fed.  I don't respect people who use children like this.  Call it what you want.  The technical term for it is "argumentum ad passiones."  It won't solve a damned thing and in fact simply degrades the credibility of the people using it.

Otherwise, you are really going to the heart of just how complex this problem is.  Although I don't agree the science is as settled as some believe it is and I am skeptical after repeated predictions of doom in 10 years have failed to pan out, nevertheless I have conceded the argument that the planet is warming and CO2 primarily is driving that.  What I am trying to do here is to get several to drop the ad homs and straw man arguments, look at where the growth in CO2 is coming from and will come from and ask them to propose to us how this can be stopped.  Thus far, no real response to this rather basic question.

Frankly my view is that we are repeating the bacteria in the test tube experiment.  My opinion, and it is just that, is there is no way human civilization can survive these numbers and the utter dependence of those numbers on carbon fuels.  Alternative energy at this point is largely a pipe dream.  I believe there is no way the planet can sustain even half of the planetary population at the standard of living of the current 10 percent.  This looks like a very classic Catch 22 to me.  That is where I'm coming from.

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3 minutes ago, Tiny said:

Have you rode in a car since 1973?  

Yes I have ridden in a car,but have not owned or driven one since then and have directed my life to living my day-to-day life without one. I thank my friends for the occassional ride and appreciate them,but if you own a car you tend to drive it for other reasons than necessity....it always cracks me up to hear a rabid climate change avocate going on a hundred city tour to promote their views. Did they bicycle? Hot air balloon? Electric car? Public transport?

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My only input at this point is that the U.S. elected an administration which immediately went about to unleash all the polluters which had been hampered by environmental regulations.  How much difference this will make is beyond my scientific ken, but it's obviously ALL about the money. Barf.

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14 minutes ago, cafemediterraneo said:

Yes I have ridden in a car,but have not owned or driven one since then and have directed my life to living my day-to-day life without one. I thank my friends for the occassional ride and appreciate them,but if you own a car you tend to drive it for other reasons than necessity....it always cracks me up to hear a rabid climate change avocate going on a hundred city tour to promote their views. Did they bicycle? Hot air balloon? Electric car? Public transport?

That really does amuse me too.  Being lectured about climate change by people living in huge energy guzzling mansions and flying around giving speeches to the masses about why we have to change.  The worst kind of hypocrites IMO.  That's what I admire about AMLO, he walks the walk instead of just talking the talk.

We have also been able to take advantage of the unique characteristics of this area to really reduce our energy consumption but I am under no illusion the majority of the planet could even live comfortably at this level without a massive overall increase in carbon generation.  That's the real Catch 22, as soon as a significant portion of the huge world population tries to live like we do, the carbon production explodes.  We are witnessing that right now.

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13 hours ago, Jim Bowie said:

IA better response might be you telling us how we get China, Mexico, etc., to do something about it, don't ya think?

I thought Dr. Aitken covered Mexico's strides in developing solar energy rather well in his presentation. Just follow the link I posted on this thread. Of course, China is the world's largest producer of solar energy and has replaced the U.S. as the world's leader in solar technology development and production.

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Yes, dumping a treaty that allowed the world's worst polluters to pollute more without actual limit for 14 years was a very good example of not allowing one's country to be the fall guy.  I see you are still ignoring the fact that most of the G20 isn't close to meeting those goals they were so enthusiastic about.  What I can't figure out is why anyone from the western world would cheer lead for the most ruthless dictatorship that engages in unfair trade and espionage in its drive to bring down the west.  

And China still the biggest carbon polluter in the world and growing fast.  Solar or no solar ownership of the private car that uses gasoline is exploding in Mexico and other developing nations.  Now what?

Mexico has fantastic potential for solar.  All that area with almost unlimited sunshine year round.  One of the most interesting technical developments I've been following is solar production of hydrogen which can then be used to fuel power plants during nights or higher demand.  Maybe even eventually power cars.  However there is probably much greater potential for transportation carbon reduction via ridesharing and better transit in heavily populated areas.  GDL could sure use that last one, still way too dependent on surface transportation via diesel buses.

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, alex45920 said:

Backing out of the Paris agreement set a fine example, don't ya think?

What I think is that you don't get good information about climate science from this forum or good medical advice from an herbalist.

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2 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

That really is an exaggeration and you are falling into the same trap of blaming one out of the many.  I hope this doesn't degenerate into another TDS thread.  

 

Wrong.   I'm blaming those who are enriched by having no barriers to their activities, regardless of their political affiliation.  It just happens to be more permissible right now. This air and water pollution didn't start recently.  We've been drinking out of plastic bottles for some time, and the plastic island in the ocean has been there since you and I were a lot younger.  Cattle farts from our favorite food source have been spreading their aroma. People who used to use a fan when it was hot now have whole house air conditioning as the norm. The new world is one of huge energy consumption and has been moving in that direction under a variety of directorates.

The bottom line is that producing energy is profitable.  Producing it with few or no environmental restrictions is even more profitable. Making a mess of the air and water quality is just plain undesirable from the point of view of those experiencing it.

Make snide remarks about the child's speech all you like, but the mess she and ALL our descendants will inherit is the end result of simple greed in the past and present.

That's not okay with me, but things have gone so far that I doubt they will change.  Sad.

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Well you are all over the place with post so I really can't figure out where to start first.  I do understand your frustration even if I think your cure is as bad, if not worse, than the disease.

I'm making snide remarks about people who use children, not the kid.  She was just a tool for the argumentum ad passiones of cynical adults.  Sorry but I don't think kids should be used like this.  We certainly agree about this plague of plastic which is a world wide problem.  In Mexico the plastic bottles are the result mainly of water systems that aren't drinkable.  I'm appalled by the energy and environmental pollution caused by bottled water, big and small here.  We have a purification system in our home and I recently had one installed in our Oaxacan college studen'ts' GDL apartment.  That's about all I can do at this point.  The company that installed it is AguaGente and if you want contact information let me know.  Of course it uses some power and water but that consumption is very modest.

I presume you are aware of this:  https://mexiconewsdaily.com/news/mexico-leads-world-in-bottled-water-use/

Mexico has severe air, water and land pollution.  It is a good 50 years behind the U.S., Canada and Europe.  Instead on obsessing about tearing down countries with much better environmental controls maybe we should devote our energy to helping this one and others catch up.  Regarding the Governor's initiative to clean up the incredibly foul Santiago River that is where I am going to try and help.

Remember everything is connected to everything and there is a big, big question about what happens if/when you eliminate the accoutrements of modern society.  You are also eliminating the jobs and life support of the people who produce those things.  And of course the wealth that could be taxed to support them goes away as well.  Now what?

Who will be the first to give these things up?  Hundreds of millions live in places formerly too hot or too cold to do more than barely survive.  Where will you put them without AC or heat?

It is very easy to wax emotional about the side effects of modern civilization but a great deal less easy to consider and understand the fall out of trying to go back a hundred years with this many people on the planet.  

In any case you know I think we will not escape the fate of the bacteria in the test tube.  There will be a collapse IMO, either caused by the depletion of fossil fuel with no real mass substitute in place or we could be done in by climate.  Or both or an asteroid or a host of other things.  The dinosaurs didn't see it coming and as a group, neither will we.

As always, from the ashes a new culture and way of life will emerge, grow, prosper and die.  That is the inescapable lesson of human history.  Knowing this I do what I can do to understand these things and mitigate my contribution while living my life and not letting worry about things I cannot control ruin it. Yes, at some point someone will be left holding the bag for the mistakes of their ancestors.  That too is an inevitable reality repeated in history over and over again.

 

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If "all over the place" is pointing out how we arrived at the place we are now, then so be it.  I am simply unable to agree with what I consider simplistic approaches to a global problem;  the actual solution to which you pointed out would require a more drastic change in peoples' everyday lives than I'm sure they are willing to make.

In short, I'm pessimistic about any solution being found in our lifetimes.  Is that clear enough?🙃

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