rafterbr Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 The landowners of the mountains have for centuries only received a few pesos each year from small corn fields and livestock grazing. All of a sudden this big company offers to make them rich for their lands. Municipalities have empty coffers and all of a sudden they can see monies from new taxes and permits. Contractors can see many projects which will make them rich and the workers see many jobs to feed their families. The realtors see many sales and this too will make them rich. Against this bonanza stands one group the Gringos who think the mountains look pretty. If the Gringos are serious about saving the mountains than let them buy them and make them into a National preserve. A nonprofit organization could be formed the lands could be bought from the landowners at a fair price than given back to them on a life time lease for their small corn fields and livestock grazing. Other lands could be made into walking and riding trails. Spots of interest could be established such as butterfly fields and wild animal sightings. Thus the landowners would get their money, the municipalities would make money from the increased tourist trade. The contractors would make money from the construction projects as well as the increased building below the mountains. The workers will have more jobs and the real estate market will boom. To pay for this a group would need to be established to solicit monies from all over the world. Large corporations and enviromental groups. The west end of Lake Chapala could be a National Trust area. Don't expect the government to help but I am sure if it costs them nothing they will assist. However I expect none of this to happen so my wife and I will buy lots in the mountains with beautiful views of Lake Chapala and since I am Hard Hearing the noisy construction around us shouldn't bother me too much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakeside7 Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 First sensible posting I have read. The earlier tree huggers are just pontificating without thinking through the real impact on the environment and economy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryB Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 what about the 1000 Mexicans who signed the petition? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 It's a lovely thought, but it's a false equivalency. Just because something could happen, does not mean it should happen. It's also a false analogy: the ability to make money off land doesn't mean we must ignore natural, historical and important ecological marvels like the waterfalls of the tepalos because they are perceived to be of lesser value than the rights of those wanting to make money. Were we to travel back in time a couple of centuries, we might have heard the same about developing any kind of town around Lake Chapala. Ah, but then the citizenry was unaware of the ecological impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Posted December 17, 2018 Report Share Posted December 17, 2018 Maybe we should not develop the mountains but grow heirloom fruits and vegetables on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 The land was granted to be farmed not to have towers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringohombre Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 3 hours ago, ComputerGuy said: It's a lovely thought, but it's a false equivalency. Just because something could happen, does not mean it should happen. It's also a false analogy: the ability to make money off land doesn't mean we must ignore natural, historical and important ecological marvels like the waterfalls of the tepalos because they are perceived to be of lesser value than the rights of those wanting to make money. Were we to travel back in time a couple of centuries, we might have heard the same about developing any kind of town around Lake Chapala. Ah, but then the citizenry was unaware of the ecological impact. So the North shore of Lake Chapala should not have been developed? Where do you live? Is this not being disingenuous? Chapala was here well before the Spaniards arrived and my town San Antonio Tlayacapan was controlled by the Aztecs back then. Ecological impact is in the eye of the beholder. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiny Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, gringohombre said: Ecological impact is in the eye of the beholder. I see the impact when I look at the mountain sides of GDL. HAHAHAHAHA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMactavish Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Not being a citizen, not wanting to be a citizen, and not a home or landowner makes me not care about the issue. When I no longer like my situation, I will packer up and move along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 30 minutes ago, gringohombre said: So the North shore of Lake Chapala should not have been developed? Where do you live? Is this not being disingenuous? Chapala was here well before the Spaniards arrived and my town San Antonio Tlayacapan was controlled by the Aztecs back then. Ecological impact is in the eye of the beholder. Once again, you take my comments and reverse their meaning without attempting to understand the point. Show me where in HELL I said anything like that?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringohombre Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 14 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said: Once again, you take my comments and reverse their meaning without attempting to understand the point. Show me where in HELL I said anything like that?! Your own words... Were we to travel back in time a couple of centuries, we might have heard the same about developing any kind of town around Lake Chapala. Ah, but then the citizenry was unaware of the ecological impact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryB Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 the citizenry was done out of its' right to input to changes in their environment. The changes were illegally done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMactavish Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 9 minutes ago, HarryB said: the citizenry... The citizenry has a right, otherwise, it's best to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 28 minutes ago, gringohombre said: Your own words... Were we to travel back in time a couple of centuries, we might have heard the same about developing any kind of town around Lake Chapala. Ah, but then the citizenry was unaware of the ecological impact. I fail to see what you don't understand about that. Didn't I go back far enough for you? You miss the point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gringohombre Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 6 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said: I fail to see what you don't understand about that. Didn't I go back far enough for you? You miss the point. Por favor...what is the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lakeside7 Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 2 hours ago, bmh said: The land was granted to be farmed not to have towers. Rubbish...... who/what can be reasonably farmed on a side of a mountain........ given your comments most of Riberas should never be developed as it is unfit for residential development due to its high water table...so go tell the MEXICAN owners in Guadalajara who are selling (expensive) lots for construction purposes, and not (cheaper) lote for farming....... I wish you would address your concerns with the Mexican owners and not pontificate your NOB ideas here........ when I purchased my Riberas lote from a Mexican owner he was selling to obtain money so that he could buy is daughter a BMW....if he had sold it for farming he would have only been able to buy his daughter a bicycle!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rafterbr Posted December 18, 2018 Author Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 Many years ago I was in Australia when it was learned our US government contracting officer in the Philippines was taking bribes on all the contracts he let. We placed him on charges in Philipino court and the jury found him innocent on all charges. Afterwards when our legal team asked the jury why they found him innocent. They said because this is how we do business in the Philippines. Remember this is Mexico. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 It is not about the owners in this case but about the government changing the zoning without any hearing. . Lakeside I am not from NOB and this thread is to discuss the Tepalo change of zoning . I vote here and I can express my views if I wish to. I have been here a while and I know it is Mexico as well thank you for that bit of wisdom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mudgirl Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 There are greedy people of all nationalities who would cut down the last tree on earth, shoot the last grizzly bear, if it would serve their own self-interest. Shrugging one's shoulders and saying that's just how it is, or it has nothing to do with me, or I don't care, is the attitude that got the planet into the mess it's in in the first place. Borders are made-up human constructs. We all live on the same planet and when the trees get cut down, there's less oxygen in the air and less oxygen lowers all living creatures immune systems and disease proliferates. When someone burns plastic in their yard, the toxins emitted don't stop at their fence line or even their neighborhood- they add to the pollution that everyone on earth is suffering from. Not caring, and not getting involved is being part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. The idea that just because you've settled in a country that you don't originate from means that it's none of your business, is bizarre to me. Being part of a community carries responsibilities to care for and interact with that community, no matter where you came from. Whether you're Mexican, American, French, or Chinese, that's irrelevant. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HarryB Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 OMG a voice of reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngusMactavish Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 6 hours ago, mudgirl said: Not caring, and not getting involved is being part of the problem, rather than part of the solution. The idea that just because you've settled in a country that you don't originate from means that it's none of your business, is bizarre to me. Being part of a community carries responsibilities to care for and interact with that community, no matter where you came from. Whether you're Mexican, American, French, or Chinese, that's irrelevant. Part of the problem??? I am not selling or buying lotes in the hills. Neither am I accusing the previous administration of misdeeds. It is none of my business legally, morally, or economically. The only vote I have here in any matter is measured in dollars and feet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHILLIN Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 This debate reminds me of when I visited Puerto Vallarta with my family in 1974. A local man we had befriended lived up in the hills overlooking Puerto Vallarta. I said there must be many beautiful homes up there, he said no, they were the last to get water, sewer and a long walk home. Then he pointed very modest home/apartments in El Centro and said a school teacher lived there, a bank manager over there. Of course, 20 years later, the hills are crowded with luxury homes with great views. This seems to be a pattern all over Latin America, I have never been to Medillin, Columbia but apparently it is the same there. People paying over $250,000 for a house Lakeside definitely want a view for that price as well as security and tranquility. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 12 hours ago, gringohombre said: Por favor...what is the point? You latched on to the wrong end of my statement, so you missed the point about land development for the sake of development. The bit you focused on? It's doubtful that we had people "back then" fighting against development for ecological reasons. I'm struggling to make it more clear: Lake Chapala is "developed". It's a done deal. No one takes that into consideration when discussions of "further development" arise. And 10 years from now, when the rest of the mountain is being ravaged, whatever they build today will also be a "done deal" with no one considering whether we fought about it at the time. Sort of like WalMart: they destroyed an avocado forest to put that eyesore in place (and promised all kinds of re-treeing and other lovely deals which didn't happen). Those of us who lived here before it happened remember well. Those arriving since then see it as a "done deal". Just an accepted fact of life here. I don't know. I think others who followed my post make the points very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
More Liana Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 12 hours ago, lakeside7 said: Rubbish...... who/what can be reasonably farmed on a side of a mountain........ Surely you're joking. Corn, potatoes, berries, rice, asparagus, fruit trees, etc, etc, etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bmh Posted December 18, 2018 Report Share Posted December 18, 2018 I guess Lakeside has never been in Chiapas where vertical milpas are all over the mountains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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