Northbound refugees in Chapala

[geeser]

6 hours ago, ComputerGuy said:

Well, I'd say you have a heart of gold (that's a joke), but I'd like to see you "stay and change" things when you are being attacked, raided, raped, terrorized, forced out of your own home and business. Good luck with that.

C guy , read some history. Many governments have been overthrown by their subjects, maybe more than have been overthrown from outside forces.

[geeser]

1 hour ago, lakeside7 said:

Hmmm. So why does the US government   welcome Cubans and not Mexicans  and others from  Central America

As I have read the wet foot program is ending.

[ComputerGuy]

1 hour ago, lakeside7 said:

Hmmm. So why does the US government   welcome Cubans and not Mexicans  and others from  Central America

Who said that is the case? No one. I simply used the Cuban exodus over the years as an example one might more readily understand. I guess not.

[pappysmarket]

6 minutes ago, geeser said:

C guy , read some history. Many governments have been overthrown by their subjects, maybe more than have been overthrown from outside forces.

Some say 'tis better to stay and fight, using your head as well as your hands, as a weapon to free your country from ruthless tyranny.  Google the French Resistance in WW2  and note the participation of many women and children.

Some say 'tis better to flee where one can get Food Stamps.

Different strokes for different folks.

[ComputerGuy]

54 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

I'm just curious as to why the U.S. should always be the bag holder here.  Central America has been a political disaster forever and people have been trying to flee it mostly for economic reasons forever and some for personal danger.  The U.S. has taken more immigrants than all the rest of the world combined and there is no where on the planet where you'll find a nation with 10 million plus "undocumented" immigrants.  

When is enough, enough, and when should U.S. citizens expect their government to put their interests first as the government of Mexico clearly does for its citizens?

As for Cubans, they don't come by the millions and then expect handouts.  That might have some bearing on their reception.

I hope you Canadians and Mexicans will be encouraging your governments to take a big bunch of these Central Americans instead of expecting to dump the problem on the U.S. as usual.

Just sayin'.

The U.S. is not the bag holder here. The current administration is. Every country in the U.N., and others, takes a huge number of immigrants and refugees every year. There is no other country with the population of the U.S. outside of Asia, and I have no idea how many people China takes, for example... but those with more have always been expected to give more.

When is enough enough? I have no idea. I am very glad not to be making those decisions. But I am not blind to the needs of the suffering, and suffering on such large scale. I can tell you I'm sick to death of the number of immigrants from specific countries in my home town who refuse to melt into the pot, and who are turnng certain neighbourhoods into slums, seemingly overnight. That doesn't cause me to say enough is enough.

Stop using Cuba as some shining light. I simply mention one place, in passing, that Americans might better understand. Again, I was obviously wrong.

Us Canadians take in a shitload of people every year, always have, with much more heart than many. If we expected to dump the problem on the U.S., we would have already, and yet we never have.

[ComputerGuy]

19 minutes ago, geeser said:

C guy , read some history. Many governments have been overthrown by their subjects, maybe more than have been overthrown from outside forces.

That's funny, you suggesting I don't know history. That's a riot. What's even funnier is that your comment has pretty much nothing at all to do with the topic at hand.

[pappysmarket]

Seems to me Canada has a lot more open space than the US, with fewer people so they should be taking a whole lot more refugees.  China takes almost none, Japan takes none, Canada has the ability to take multiple times more and they won't even notice it with all the space they have. The smaller the native population, the more room for refugees.

What's the population of Newfoundland and NW Territories?

[ComputerGuy]

3 minutes ago, pappysmarket said:

Seems to me Canada has a lot more open space than the US, with fewer people so they should be taking a whole lot more refugees.  China takes almost none, Japan takes none, Canada has the ability to take multiple times more and they won't even notice it with all the space they have. The smaller the native population, the more room for refugees.

What's the population of Newfoundland and NW Territories?

Space has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. You are suggesting we create refugee slums that cover the country, wherever space is available. No one is just going to open their doors wide "just because". A great deal of thought has to be given to integration and the benefit of the country on the whole, while at the same time trying to be sympathetic and responsive.

[ComputerGuy]

16 minutes ago, pappysmarket said:

Some say 'tis better to stay and fight, using your head as well as your hands, as a weapon to free your country from ruthless tyranny.  Google the French Resistance in WW2  and note the participation of many women and children.

Some say 'tis better to flee where one can get Food Stamps.

Different strokes for different folks.

How many heroes in every family do you think there are? I wouldn't speak for any refugee's situation until I walked in his shoes. You point seems to be that people are leaving these war-torn dictatorships only because they want a hand out, and you are blanketing every one of them with that.

[pappysmarket]

14 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

How many heroes in every family do you think there are? I wouldn't speak for any refugee's situation until I walked in his shoes. You point seems to be that people are leaving these war-torn dictatorships only because they want a hand out, and you are blanketing every one of them with that.

You have totally miss characterized what I actually said.  Nowhere did I say "all" or "everyone".  You are much more intelligent than that.

[pappysmarket]

9 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

Space has absolutely nothing to do with responsibility. You are suggesting we create refugee slums that cover the country, wherever space is available. No one is just going to open their doors wide "just because". A great deal of thought has to be given to integration and the benefit of the country on the whole, while at the same time trying to be sympathetic and responsive.

You have very well made the point many Americans have been making.

For instance, we could put millions in Alaska but our Tree Huggers would strenuously object.

[mudgirl]

1 hour ago, Mainecoons said:

I'm just curious as to why the U.S. should always be the bag holder here.  Central America has been a political disaster forever and people have been trying to flee it mostly for economic reasons forever and some for personal danger.  The U.S. has taken more immigrants than all the rest of the world combined and there is no where on the planet where you'll find a nation with 10 million plus "undocumented" immigrants.  

When is enough, enough, and when should U.S. citizens expect their government to put their interests first as the government of Mexico clearly does for its citizens?

As for Cubans, they don't come by the millions and then expect handouts.  That might have some bearing on their reception.

I hope you Canadians and Mexicans will be encouraging your governments to take a big bunch of these Central Americans instead of expecting to dump the problem on the U.S. as usual.

Just sayin'.

Canada HAS been taking in tons of refugees. Some have lost their hands to frostbite crossing in the dead of winter through the frozen wilderness to get from the US to Canada. THAT'S how desperate they are. These are not people just looking for a free ride.

[mexjerry]

So, some previous posts suggest.  Your friends jump off a cliff, they die, I should do the same?

And as far as classifying an individual who enters ANY country, as an illegal, what else would you suggest to call that undocumented, illegally entered person?

 

[geeser]

1 hour ago, pappysmarket said:

Some say 'tis better to stay and fight, using your head as well as your hands, as a weapon to free your country from ruthless tyranny.  Google the French Resistance in WW2  and note the participation of many women and children.

Some say 'tis better to flee where one can get Food Stamps.

Different strokes for different folks.

When you want to stop having ants you put up the food. Maybe if we didn't have generous food stamp and WIC many wouldn't want to come to USA to seek refuge. They shouldn't be allow any benefits for several years while they wait for someone else to fix their country so they could return. Many have been seen marching and protesting in the USA while carrying the flag of some other American country, if they love it that much go home.  The question for all immigrants is what do you offer the country. We don't need more poor, unskilled population as all of those jobs have gone.

The EU with double the population of the USA is about fed up with the millions making up the hoard, a rerun of what got turned away at the battle of Lepanto. I think the EU has a way to go to match the charity given and numbers if immigrants that the USA has accepted.

[Tiny]

5 minutes ago, geeser said:

When you want to stop having ants you put up the food. Maybe if we didn't have generous food stamp and WIC many wouldn't want to come to USA to seek refuge. They shouldn't be allow any benefits for several years while they wait for someone else to fix their country so they could return. Many have been seen marching and protesting in the USA while carrying the flag of some other American country, if they love it that much go home.  The question for all immigrants is what do you offer the country. We don't need more poor, unskilled population as all of those jobs have gone.

The EU with double the population of the USA is about fed up with the millions making up the hoard, a rerun of what got turned away at the battle of Lepanto. I think the EU has a way to go to match the charity given and numbers if immigrants that the USA has accepted.

You tell them.

 

[ComputerGuy]

1 hour ago, pappysmarket said:

You have totally miss characterized what I actually said.  Nowhere did I say "all" or "everyone".  You are much more intelligent than that.

Then who and how are you characterising when you say this: "Some say 'tis better to stay and fight, using your head as well as your hands, as a weapon to free your country from ruthless tyranny.  Google the French Resistance in WW2  and note the participation of many women and children. Some say 'tis better to flee where one can get Food Stamps."

[ComputerGuy]

1 hour ago, pappysmarket said:

You have very well made the point many Americans have been making.

For instance, we could put millions in Alaska but our Tree Huggers would strenuously object.

False equivalency, my friend.

[ComputerGuy]

3 million refugees in the U.S. since 1980. 2.7 million in Jordan by 2015. Population of the U.S.: 330 million. Population of Jordan: 10 million.

3 million refugees in the U.S. since 1980. 2.5 million in Jordan by 2015. Population of the U.S.: 330 million. Population of Turkey: 80 million.

It doesn't take much math to figure out that "The U.S. has taken more refugees than any other country" is pretty damned misleading, when compared to the population. Jordan: almost 30% of its entire population. U.S.: almost 1% of its entire population.

[ComputerGuy]

27 minutes ago, Tiny said:

You tell them.

 

Good one.

[pappysmarket]

4 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

Then who and how are you characterising when you say this: "Some say 'tis better to stay and fight, using your head as well as your hands, as a weapon to free your country from ruthless tyranny.  Google the French Resistance in WW2  and note the participation of many women and children. Some say 'tis better to flee where one can get Food Stamps."

You're way too intelligent to be asking me for that explanation, lol. Some French collaborated with the Germans and when the war ended, some of them paid a high price. Some joined the Resistance and suffered a bad fate sooner rather than later. Some fled to other countries and fought in other ways and returned after the war to help rebuild their country. Some fled and never looked back. I just hope the percentage of people fleeing Central America is no higher than the French and the same proportion will return home when the "troubles" are over, but I have my doubts.

Speaking of "The Troubles" many an Irishman fled their country to come to America. I've never heard any stories about how they found a land of milk and honey based on government assistance. I have heard many a story of discrimination and prejudice against them such as signs that read "Irish need not Apply" but they persevered and made it.  The same is not happening today, sad to say.

[HookEmHorns]

1 hour ago, ComputerGuy said:

The U.S. is not the bag holder here. The current administration is. Every country in the U.N., and others, takes a huge number of immigrants and refugees every year. There is no other country with the population of the U.S. outside of Asia, and I have no idea how many people China takes, for example... but those with more have always been expected to give more.

When is enough enough? I have no idea. I am very glad not to be making those decisions. But I am not blind to the needs of the suffering, and suffering on such large scale. I can tell you I'm sick to death of the number of immigrants from specific countries in my home town who refuse to melt into the pot, and who are turnng certain neighbourhoods into slums, seemingly overnight. That doesn't cause me to say enough is enough.

Stop using Cuba as some shining light. I simply mention one place, in passing, that Americans might better understand. Again, I was obviously wrong.

Us Canadians take in a shitload of people every year, always have, with much more heart than many. If we expected to dump the problem on the U.S., we would have already, and yet we never have.

Sometimes your responses suggest how little you actually know about the US and its people. Are you sure you are an American Citizen?

[pappysmarket]

21 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

False equivalency, my friend.

Not false equivalency, a little light

heartedness.

11 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

Good one.

 

[pappysmarket]

12 minutes ago, ComputerGuy said:

Good one.

OK, how much money from the EU and other governments do those countries receive to so humanely accept all those refugees? I know Turkey has been bribed with huge payments to accept the dregs that mainland Europe doesn't want. Italy is now also getting in on the gravy train.  Not in my backyard?

Sidenote: This board is getting very difficult to respond to in a technical way. Apologies for any responses that seem out of place.

pappy

[ComputerGuy]

How they do it isn't the point.

34 minutes ago, pappysmarket said:

You're way too intelligent to be asking me for that explanation, lol. Some French collaborated with the Germans and when the war ended, some of them paid a high price. Some joined the Resistance and suffered a bad fate sooner rather than later. Some fled to other countries and fought in other ways and returned after the war to help rebuild their country. Some fled and never looked back. I just hope the percentage of people fleeing Central America is no higher than the French and the same proportion will return home when the "troubles" are over, but I have my doubts.

Speaking of "The Troubles" many an Irishman fled their country to come to America. I've never heard any stories about how they found a land of milk and honey based on government assistance. I have heard many a story of discrimination and prejudice against them such as signs that read "Irish need not Apply" but they persevered and made it.  The same is not happening today, sad to say.

Not at all, your argument merely attempts to isolate and individualize an argument that cannot be isolated or individualized. In the case of WWII, some people formed a resistance. Are you saying there is no resistance in these other countries?

[ComputerGuy]

37 minutes ago, HookEmHorns said:

Sometimes your responses suggest how little you actually know about the US and its people. Are you sure you are an American Citizen?

You know damn well I'm Canadian. And I learned more about the U.S., the people, the individual states, their economies, the GDP, and every other damn thing there was to know geopolitcally and historally by the time I hit grade 6. Way more than you ever learned about Canada, probably in your whole life. And your comment that I know little about it is taken from what I said? Show me where. No, don't proselytize: show me some facts. You can't, can you, because you are just throwing mud, as always.