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Attorney Referral for Closing


Zeb

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I'm sorry Kiko, but I do not think you are correct, unless the laws have changed drastically since 2011 when we sold our San Pancho home for a very large chunk of change and paid no capital gains. The one thing I agree with is that everyone's situation is different and that independent council is required. There are many more hoops to jump through than you have indicated... one being the size of the house compared to the amount of land that it's on and it's not a blanket 200,000 deduction but is based on the UDIs.

Damn rules keep changing. In 2006, the time frame was 2 years and then it changed to 5 years and then back to 2 years and, now, you say it's 3 years. Anybody who wants to nail this down should get information pertaining to THEIR situation BEFORE putting your home up for sale.

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26 minutes ago, Joco said:

A Notario is an attorney with additional training who was appointed by a state's governor and approved by the federal government. You cannot have an attorney approve the work of an attorney who outranks him and for which the attorney has no training.

That's kind of like saying that a proofreader can't point out errors to an author. Notarios actually do make mistakes.

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4 hours ago, pappysmarket said:

Agree with Kiko and recording sales prices under the true amount was common for a long time. Not sure if it still is.  However, remember that all deeds are recorded in Pesos, not USD. So as the peso has weakened you will, on paper, have a much larger gain than you really do. Definitely talk to a lawyer about how you can legally avoid capital gains tax before you list your property. It may be different in different parts of Mexico. Usually Notarios in an area agree on what the "proof" will be to a seller.  Here in PV it involves being Permanente and having your RFC on your CFE bill for at least 6 months.  That's today.  Who knows what it may be tomorrow.

I agree. Before I put my property on the market I got estimates from Notario Uriate on how much capital gains I would have to pay at different prices. 

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One: the story mentioned above is so misleading as to be pointless. There was one cheesed-off agent here who decided that setting the percentage at a certain point was collusion. Now the point is lower, which while definitely good for buyers/sellers, does not prove in any way that it was illegal. Or that they did anything wrong. Heck, even the gas stations in my home town set their prices amongst themselves every day of the week. The government inquiries have neve been able to prove anything illegal is taking place. This situation threw a whole lot of good people under the bus for the egomania of one guy.

Two: Joco and RV are absolutely right. Notarios are better trained and more informed. Of course, there are always exceptions on both sides. (Edited)

Three: each broker I know has their favoured notarios, not because they "collude", and not because they "fix" deeds (holy cow, really?), but because they know their methods and they get along well. The buyer is welcome to bring/use their own notario any time. This is not helpful when the notario is from Guadalajara and everyone has to troop out there several times to finish a local sales job, but if that is what has to be done, that's what's done.

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The info I posted here in regards to capital gains taxes and exemptions is current as of the last three months at lakeside.  I have been to two notarios and three closings in that time.  Oftentimes no intent to deceive a client, but just sloppy work.  Everyone is real busy so shit happens.  Who knows maybe tomorrow it may all change.

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2 hours ago, Ferret said:

That's kind of like saying that a proofreader can't point out errors to an author. Notarios actually do make mistakes.

Yes Ferret.  You and I agree. 

 

Joco. I said nothing about an attorney's authority to override a Notary.  He/She would be an independent reviewer there for OUR benefit, just as you would get a second opinion from any professional.

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I started to write a big long response/analysis and then said "screw it, it is just too complicated an issue, with too many variables for anyone "reading this on the fly" to get any valuable info".   A Lawyer is not an Accountant; an Accountant is not a Lawyer; A Real Estate Salesperson is not either of those.  The Real Estate Co/Notario relationship here is intentionally vague & mysterious (why do agencies recommend one over the other in sales vs buys).

If the $$ involved in a sale warrants it, I would hire both an accountant & lawyer to be part of the sales process & closing.  It will cost you but, ..... having an  agent/acct/lawyer/notary all doing their macho-thing might save you a couple of bucks (after they figure out how much each of them will take from the pie)  Just a takeaway ...... sales over 500K be prepared to pay 13 to 16% out of your sales price to get the deal done.  Or do like I have done and just bend over.

 

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Well, you'd have to specify which part is baloney.

Questions for Kiko: I have no doubt whatsoever with your recent experience. Are you Residente Permanente? Was the property that you sold that you paid "capital gains" on your primary residence? Were all three properties yours? Did they all have buildings on them? Too many questions and too many variables to be saying "this is what I paid, be warned."

BTW, Nayarit is/was very strict on "capital gains"... long before PV and Lakeside started charging.

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55 minutes ago, Ferret said:

Well, you'd have to specify which part is baloney.

Questions for Kiko: I have no doubt whatsoever with your recent experience. Are you Residente Permanente? Was the property that you sold that you paid "capital gains" on your primary residence? Were all three properties yours? Did they all have buildings on them? Too many questions and too many variables to be saying "this is what I paid, be warned."

BTW, Nayarit is/was very strict on "capital gains"... long before PV and Lakeside started charging.

Yes we are both Residente Permanente and the three properties had structures.  The issue of primary residence never came up in discussions with the Notario.  In a nutshell, the Notario made a mistake on the transfer of ownership of the deed of the first property.  Because of that error we lost a 200,000 tax exemption at closing.  We are working together on this and I think we may have an option.

 

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Gosh I hope I am never on a plane or bus with Kiko, seems you could drop out of the sky or fall in a ravine...what negativity....

If you do not feel warm and comfortable about the real estate agent you are working with, get a different one for God sake. My experience has been they can save you money by pointing out the Notario who have "high" fees for closing and those who charge lower fees...similar as the various doctors in the area charge different fees. And by the way Notario can and do have slight different interruption of what the law means, which can also cost you or save you some money.  

For those of us who have been around for many years...yes we have all seen the "goal post" move when it comes to real estate regulations. So sharing your experience 12/6 months ago is not what maybe current this week. The suggestion of putting a lower purchasing price on the  deed went out of the door ages ago.

If taking an additional artonery with you to check the checker and it make you warm and more comfortable , great..... like getting a 2nd opinion for a major operation.

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Everybody's warm and fuzzy trust can be misplaced. Just wondering if anyone who has actually paid "capital gains" has received documented proof that the money has actually been paid to the government? Or does such a thing even exist?

We are all aware that we should have a copy of the finiquitos for any domestic employees that a previous homeowner had but I also wonder if, in a new construction where the buyer has purchased a new home being constructed, they should ask for all the documentation for the workers on the new property. You can't register the house to the property without that... and, if the documentation doesn't exist, you could be on the hook for all those payments. Just a heads up. 

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10 hours ago, Ferret said:

Well, you'd have to specify which part is baloney.

The baloney parts. There is so much BS bloviated opinion here that anyone looking for real advice would be better to take this advice: stay away. If you weren't confused before, you will be by now. 

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1 hour ago, ComputerGuy said:

The baloney parts. There is so much BS bloviated opinion here that anyone looking for real advice would be better to take this advice: stay away. If you weren't confused before, you will be by now. 

Kind of like suggesting someone seek out a doctor instead of relying on a webboard for medical advice?

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7 minutes ago, Rick Sanchez said:

Kind of like suggesting someone seek out a doctor instead of relying on a webboard for medical advice?

Exchanging information about where to get goods and services and experiences with same is a big part of what goes on here.  If someone is seeking referrals for services what is appreciated the most is other posters providing same, not critiquing why they are asking for the information.

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18 hours ago, Ferret said:

That's kind of like saying that a proofreader can't point out errors to an author. Notarios actually do make mistakes.

A notario has training in closings. A regular attorney doesn't.  The papers are not ready until after the closing so how is it a regular attorney is going to read the papers and tell the notario that the notario made a mistake?  The only way to have it reviewed is by another notario and that probably won't happen. A regular attorney probably wouldn't know if a notario made a mistake.  It is like having a family doctor review the brain surgery of a neurologist. Would you do that?

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Notaries dont like me getting involved as I have tremendous experience with property due diligence and preparation of property deeds as well as a postgraduate degree in Notarial law.  I can critique all parts of a deed and see errors, I have been doing it for quite some time and have the experience.  Few if no other attorneys have that experience except for notaries.  I catch mistakes all the time and they do not like that, heck if I was a harmless :() there would be no resistance to me reviewing any documents but notaries all the sudden decide they dont know what documents to send to me, even though client says send Spencer entire file, they refuse.  I have prepared, reviewed and translated hundreds of property deeds so nobody except for a notary has my level of experience.  Also by the time a notary looks at the file the buyer has placed a deposit of 10% and the sellers and agents are breathing down their neck and the poor notary who gets many referrals from the real estate people is in an awkward position.  

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7 minutes ago, Joco said:

A notario has training in closings. A regular attorney doesn't.  The papers are not ready until after the closing so how is it a regular attorney is going to read the papers and tell the notario that the notario made a mistake?  The only way to have it reviewed is by another notario and that probably won't happen. A regular attorney probably wouldn't know if a notario made a mistake.  It is like having a family doctor review the brain surgery of a neurologist. Would you do that?

Well that's not exactly a good analogy.  Some Notarios, no names here, are very uninvolved in the actual closings. They have "their people" who do all the dog work and have everything ready (once in a great while) for the big day. The folks who do the dog work are usually good people but probably overworked and underpaid. Some Real Estate people work hand in glove with them to see that everything is done correctly before the actual closing. Jennie Wilson, RIP, who worked for Bev Hunt was such a person. She caught more mistakes before they happened than anyone I know and she was involved with all of our buying and selling at Lakeside which involved 12 different transactions. In addition we had our personal attorney looking over everything. He is the one who said Jennie almost never made a mistake and he was involved in many closings. So if you don't know that your agent's company has someone like Jennie who works hand in glove with the Notario you will be using you might want to have your attorney handle that. More than just catching errors, it's helping the Notario's folks with the dog work. Anybody who helps with that will be appreciated and perhaps if something is a gray area you will get the benefit. Can't hurt.

I see Spencer just posted ahead of me and seems to agree with at least some of my opinion. Our last sale at lakeside included the buyer paying in cash and a condo that was under construction. Buyer had verbally promised a clear deed in one year for the condo. Our attorney didn't like that verbal idea so on the day of closing the buyer had to sign an agreement that had a large ($50,000 USD) penalty if such was not the case. We weren't at the closing but it was reported buyer agonized for a long time before signing it. The deed was not ready in a year and buyer had to pay the penalty. Without that assistance such a clause would never have been inserted and we might still not have a deed today.

YMMV

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10 hours ago, lakeside7 said:

Gosh I hope I am never on a plane or bus with Kiko, seems you could drop out of the sky or fall in a ravine...what negativity....

If you do not feel warm and comfortable about the real estate agent you are working with, get a different one for God sake. My experience has been they can save you money by pointing out the Notario who have "high" fees for closing and those who charge lower fees...similar as the various doctors in the area charge different fees. And by the way Notario can and do have slight different interruption of what the law means, which can also cost you or save you some money.  

For those of us who have been around for many years...yes we have all seen the "goal post" move when it comes to real estate regulations. So sharing your experience 12/6 months ago is not what maybe current this week. The suggestion of putting a lower purchasing price on the  deed went out of the door ages ago.

If taking an additional artonery with you to check the checker and it make you warm and more comfortable , great..... like getting a 2nd opinion for a major operation.

Let my clarify my post for you with additional information:

I have no problem with my real estate agent, I have used him for years.  I have a problem currently with the Notario but he is working with us on a solution.  I have used him also for years. I caught his error at closing.  This is not personal.

Now for the details of the transaction that you are unaware of.  In 2013 we purchased a property for 130,000 and the value on the dead was recorded at 45,000.  I understand and agree that this was "how things were done."  We sold this property for 200000 recently.  The deed was in joint ownership.  The Notario and I agree to transfer 50% the ownership of this property prior to closing.  The reason is this: Each person receives a 200,000 capital gains exemption.  We had other properties for sale.  By transfering ownership of one property to my name only and the second property into my wife's name then we each would benefit with a 200,000 capital gains exemption with two sales.  The Notario's assistant told us that he completed the transfer prior to closing.  At closing I discovered that he in fact had not done so.  The net effect is that although we paid no capital gains on the sale of the first property, our entire allowed 400,000 exemption is now gone.  The sale of the first property only required an tax exemption of less than 200,000.  Since ownership of the  two deeds was not separated, we will have a significant capital gains on the sale of the second property valued over 400,000.  

I am not throwing anyone under the bus here.  There are good real estate agents, brokers and attorneys at lakeside.  I have done business with 5 Notarios here and two in other states of Mexico.  Nonetheless there are some who are incompetent and prone to errors.

My point is simply get independent legal counsel if you are new or unfamiliar with Mexican Real Estate law.  

Here is an excellent link if you care to be informed:

http://www.insidelakeside.com/t20342-how-to-lose-money-in-mexican-real-estate

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Nobody's throwing anybody under the bus. It's called due diligence for a reason. Humans make mistakes. It's just that simple. There was an error in our closing documents for the lot we purchased in San Pancho. Our lawyer found it in proof reading the closing documents after the fact. The error was fixed. Do not assume anything.

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