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CHILLIN
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The article we are discussing in this thread relates to usage and is contradicted somewhat by the articles I cited.  You appear to be suggesting the cartels do not sell drugs to Mexicans and I don't think that is correct, particularly after the government has managed to splinter the cartels and compound the problem by multiplying the numbers of criminal organizations.  They are after all criminals and I don't think they hesitate to victimize Mexicans in any and all manner including drug sales, extortion, kidnapping, highway robbery and so on.

Perhaps what is more true is that, as it used to be in America, there is still a strong social bias against the users of hard drugs here.  In any case the nub of the problem is the social and moral decay of the U.S. and the resulting rampant use of drugs of any and all kinds up there.  That is what drives this entire business.  The customers are primarily in the U.S., Canada and Europe so that is where the drugs are sent and sold.  I'll admit I cannot get my mind around how fast this situation developed and metastasized in the western world and particularly the U.S.  When I was a young man drug users were ostracized in America and it was very much a minor issue.  No more.

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According to this article (from business insider, which I consider a trashy news source) the Jalisco based cartel is now number one in the murder and mayhem charts. They accomplished this but diversifying into oil theft and plain old extortion. All economic activity in Jalisco, even farmers, is considered fair game.

https://www.businessinsider.com/mexicos-jalisco-new-generation-cartel-copying-zetas-tactics-2018-2

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4 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

You appear to be suggesting the cartels do not sell drugs to Mexicans and I don't think that is correct...

There you go again...misrepresenting  my remarks.That is not what I said. My remarks were specifically in reference to sales of heroin within Mexico and not in reference to drugs in general. Of course the drug cartels sell drugs to Mexicans...just not heroin. 

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OK but I don't understand why you believe they don't sell any and all of the drugs.  I don't see anything in any of the references which state this.  They seem to think Mexican drug users avoid heroin but the ones that use it are getting it from somewhere and the cartels are the drug sellers in this country and they don't hesitate to brutally eliminate any competition.  My references show heroin usage increasing rapidly in this country and I believe they are getting it from the same sources as the other drugs. 

I do not seriously believe the cartels have any more compunction about selling heroin here than they do about any other drug.  If I understand your point correctly, you believe the cartel criminals refrain from selling heroin to Mexicans and I believe that is not correct.  I hope this clarifies the point I am making about your assertion.

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1 hour ago, Mainecoons said:

OK but I don't understand why you believe they don't sell any and all of the drugs.  I don't see anything in any of the references which state this.  They seem to think Mexican drug users avoid heroin but the ones that use it are getting it from somewhere and the cartels are the drug sellers in this country and they don't hesitate to brutally eliminate any competition.  My references show heroin usage increasing rapidly in this country and I believe they are getting it from the same sources as the other drugs. 

I do not seriously believe the cartels have any more compunction about selling heroin here than they do about any other drug.  If I understand your point correctly, you believe the cartel criminals refrain from selling heroin to Mexicans and I believe that is not correct.  I hope this clarifies the point I am making about your assertion.

I do not make policy decisions for the cartels. They make these decisions without consulting with me. I can only tell you what the rules are...and what the consequences may be for violating those rules. The Michoacan Brotherhood and the Knights Templarios, in particular, took a very hard line. If you grew opium poppies, you could have your land confiscated and be sent into exile. If you sold heroin to Mexicans, you could face execution. I believe this was the actual cause of the war that broke out between the Templarios and the vigilantes in Michoacan a few years ago. The so-called "lime farmers" (many of whom were living in exile in California) were willing to abide by the rules that forbade them from selling heroin in Mexico but still wanted to grow what had become their most lucrative crop for export to the U.S. So they simply took up a collection in order to purchase automatic weapons for use by the vigilantes. The Templarios lost that war and no longer exist. Not sure if the Michoacan Brotherhood still exists. They may have been defeated or absorbed by the Jalisco New Generation Cartel. The "lime farmers" felt secure enough to return to their lands in Michoacan and neighboring Guerrero, and went back into the business of growing poppies. The Mexican government, probably with a lot of help from the DEA, actually tracks opium production throughout the country. The trends are very clear; opium production in Michoacan and Guerrero declined while the Templarios were in control and then quickly rebounded once they were eliminated.

That's all you get to know. I've probably given you too much information already. And if you ask me a bunch of questions about, I will probably not respond.
 

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Thank you Alex and it would help if you sourced all this or explain the source of your expertise here.  It sounds good but the growing number of heroin junkies in this country are getting this stuff from somewhere and in this country the cartels control the drug trade period.  Very interesting read though and thanks for posting it.

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9 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

Thank you Alex and it would help if you sourced all this or explain the source of your expertise here.  It sounds good but the growing number of heroin junkies in this country are getting this stuff from somewhere and in this country the cartels control the drug trade period.  Very interesting read though and thanks for posting it.

Why can't we just accept the information being offered by the professional journalists? According to the newspaper articles cited in this thread, better interdiction on the U.S. side of the border has slowed smuggling operations and created a logjam of  heroin on the Mexican side. With nowhere to go, the heroin becomes a cheap supply that is feeding the increased usage in border areas such as Tijuana and Juarez. You can verify their information by checking the statistics on where in Mexico heroin use is on the rise. Didn't you say you have access to these stats? Can you look it up? Is it confined to a couple of border states or more pervasive throughout Mexico? Please take a look at the stats for Sinaloa while you're at it. One thing I can verify right now is that although marijuana, amphetamine and cocaine are readily available locally, heroin is very rare.

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9 hours ago, CHILLIN said:

Another insidious trend - combining sex trade workers and heroin. The cartels are sending the pimps and ladies to small towns in the U.S.A. - their sole purpose is to seduce gullible young men, and then get them addicted to heroin.

That's quite the statement. And I think far too much of a leap.

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It's all speculation, but just remember that ROI is not always paid in currency. Moving drugs, collecting hard to collect debts, carrying out mob justice are just a few ways these "customers" can pay their bills.

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8 minutes ago, pappysmarket said:

It's all speculation, but just remember that ROI is not always paid in currency. Moving drugs, collecting hard to collect debts, carrying out mob justice are just a few ways these "customers" can pay their bills.

Again, the speculation was “small towns.” They are not filled with young men who will fall for hookers pushing heroin then mob up to beat up or kill their neighbors to pay their drug bills. Big cities, maybe — depending on how paranoid you want to be. 

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13 hours ago, alex45920 said:

Why can't we just accept the information being offered by the professional journalists? According to the newspaper articles cited in this thread, better interdiction on the U.S. side of the border has slowed smuggling operations and created a logjam of  heroin on the Mexican side. With nowhere to go, the heroin becomes a cheap supply that is feeding the increased usage in border areas such as Tijuana and Juarez. You can verify their information by checking the statistics on where in Mexico heroin use is on the rise. Didn't you say you have access to these stats? Can you look it up? Is it confined to a couple of border states or more pervasive throughout Mexico? Please take a look at the stats for Sinaloa while you're at it. One thing I can verify right now is that although marijuana, amphetamine and cocaine are readily available locally, heroin is very rare.

Because, Alex, you didn't cite your references for material not in the references others have cited.  How are we supposed to know where all of your information comes from?  I find it is a good idea to let people know where things come from so they can go there and read for themselves. 

I see nothing in any of the material cited including my own citations which supports the idea that in general the cartels have any compunctions about selling drugs of any kind to their countrymen.  It appears to me this is our point of disagreement.  I've taken the time to research that idea and really haven't come up with anything.  I certainly will read carefully any piece that supports and documents that idea. 

Yes the references cited the log jam of drugs at the border.  Pretty good argument for getting serious about controlling that border and that includes making it hard to send weapons and drug money into Mexico, no? 

But that has nothing to do with the general question of whether cartel criminals will sell any and all drugs to young Mexicans within the country as a whole.  Nor does the idea they may not allow their own sicarios to use, the reasons for that seem pretty obvious to me.

I have been addressing the idea that most of these cartel criminals give a rat's a** about who they sell drugs of any kind to.  They are pathological criminals and sociopaths.  IMO they will sell anything to anyone.  The growth of usage among Mexicans of substances we all know are fully controlled by the cartels would seem to support that idea. 

If you buy drugs of any kind in this country they will be coming from organized crime.  When anyone else tries to horn in on this business the results are quick and fatal.

It is the breakdown of social mores which creates the markets for this stuff.  I think we can all agree that breakdown is pretty far advanced NOB and in Europe.  The references I've cited suggest the same trend here even if the relative numbers are much better in Mexico than those places.

Because the reality here is the drug suppliers are cartel is why I have great contempt for expats who buy and use drugs.  Those who do so are supporting a bunch of murderers and corrupters and IMO are no better than the criminals.

 

 

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Actually, when the Chief of Police for Jalisco made a public statement that he was not going to be kicking down doors of senior expats for a couple of cannabis plants. Many took him up on his offer. Many feel the same way you do about feeding the vipers. They never sell though, not that I am aware of any ways.

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6 hours ago, Mainecoons said:

Because, Alex, you didn't cite your references for material not in the references others have cited.  How are we supposed to know where all of your information comes from?  I find it is a good idea to let people know where things come from so they can go there and read for themselves. 

I see nothing in any of the material cited including my own citations which supports the idea that in general the cartels have any compunctions about selling drugs of any kind to their countrymen.  It appears to me this is our point of disagreement.  I've taken the time to research that idea and really haven't come up with anything.  I certainly will read carefully any piece that supports and documents that idea. 

Yes the references cited the log jam of drugs at the border.  Pretty good argument for getting serious about controlling that border and that includes making it hard to send weapons and drug money into Mexico, no? 

But that has nothing to do with the general question of whether cartel criminals will sell any and all drugs to young Mexicans within the country as a whole.  Nor does the idea they may not allow their own sicarios to use, the reasons for that seem pretty obvious to me.

I have been addressing the idea that most of these cartel criminals give a rat's a** about who they sell drugs of any kind to.  They are pathological criminals and sociopaths.  IMO they will sell anything to anyone.  The growth of usage among Mexicans of substances we all know are fully controlled by the cartels would seem to support that idea. 

If you buy drugs of any kind in this country they will be coming from organized crime.  When anyone else tries to horn in on this business the results are quick and fatal.

It is the breakdown of social mores which creates the markets for this stuff.  I think we can all agree that breakdown is pretty far advanced NOB and in Europe.  The references I've cited suggest the same trend here even if the relative numbers are much better in Mexico than those places.

Because the reality here is the drug suppliers are cartel is why I have great contempt for expats who buy and use drugs.  Those who do so are supporting a bunch of murderers and corrupters and IMO are no better than the criminals.

 

 

I asked some simple questions of you and got this long, convoluted, repetitious nonresponse. So let's try this again. Earlier in this thread you said:

 "My references show heroin usage increasing rapidly in this country...."

Do your "references" back up this claim with statistics? Do your "references" break down the statistics on a regional basis or is it just some generalized claim about Mexico as a whole? Do your "references" contradict or disprove the information reported in the Washington Post or L.A. Times? Are your "references" more credible than those two newspapers?

Come on, let's see what you got.

 

 

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To distribute the drugs that were beginning to accumulate as a result of border pressure and scrutiny, drug dealers - as many as 35,000 strong by some reports - began to offer free doses to students and partygoers, particularly young women. Some drug dealers began to be paid for their services in product rather than money. And the addiction figures began to grow.

"Mexico’s Attorney General stated, “It is clear to everyone that our nation has stopped being a transit country for drugs going to the United States and become an important market as well. We are experiencing a phenomenon of greater drug supplies in the streets, at relatively accessible prices.”

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/mexico-drug-addiction.html

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1 hour ago, AngusMactavish said:

To distribute the drugs that were beginning to accumulate as a result of border pressure and scrutiny, drug dealers - as many as 35,000 strong by some reports - began to offer free doses to students and partygoers, particularly young women. Some drug dealers began to be paid for their services in product rather than money. And the addiction figures began to grow.

"Mexico’s Attorney General stated, “It is clear to everyone that our nation has stopped being a transit country for drugs going to the United States and become an important market as well. We are experiencing a phenomenon of greater drug supplies in the streets, at relatively accessible prices.”

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/mexico-drug-addiction.html

Yeah, I read that story on the Narconon site while trying to track down statistical information on heroin use in Mexico. To me, it seemed to corroborate the news stories we have been discussing here about the logjam of heroin at the border and how that has fueled the outbreak of heroin use in the border areas of Tijuana and Juarez...and not the country as whole. What was your impression?

Let me add that Narconon was created by Scientology as a recruiting agency for the so-called "religion." I would never cite them as an unbiased source of credible information. 

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38 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

Thank you Angus, I think that covers my point pretty well.  Alex I'm happy to discuss this with you in a civil manner, otherwise no.  At least I cited references, you did not.  I simply asked you for those.  Sorry that upsets you.

I'd still like to see credible statistical evidence that proves that heroin use is increasing throughout Mexico and not just anomalous to the border areas around Tijuana and Juarez.

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1 hour ago, AngusMactavish said:

To distribute the drugs that were beginning to accumulate as a result of border pressure and scrutiny, drug dealers - as many as 35,000 strong by some reports - began to offer free doses to students and partygoers, particularly young women. Some drug dealers began to be paid for their services in product rather than money. And the addiction figures began to grow.

"Mexico’s Attorney General stated, “It is clear to everyone that our nation has stopped being a transit country for drugs going to the United States and become an important market as well. We are experiencing a phenomenon of greater drug supplies in the streets, at relatively accessible prices.”

http://www.narconon.org/drug-information/mexico-drug-addiction.html

Further add: This story and the quote from the attorney general refers to overall drug use in Mexico and not specifically to heroin use. Once again, it's an apples to oranges comparison. 

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Here's a 2014 article from Animal Politico that says heroin use in Mexico increased by 67 percent over a three-year period ending in 2011. The article doesn't give specific details regarding the number of people this represents or in which regions of Mexico this increase occurred. The article goes on to say that Mexican public health authorities aren't concerned since this represents less than one percent of the population and is "minimal" when compared to usage rates for marijuana and cocaine. It's still early in the day for me, but I'll try to track down the source for this information later in the day and see if more details are available. My guess is that the actual number of people using heroin in Mexico is quite small and that the actual number of people who are "addicted" is much less than that. I would further guess that the drug warriors, sensational press and fake news outlets have used these figures to fuel anti-drug hysteria.

https://www.animalpolitico.com/2014/04/eu-en-alerta-por-heroina-en-mexico-aumenta-consumo-y-produccion/#axzz2zoGJfmVz

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The percentage of possible heroin addicts in Mexico, according to figures from the Ministry of Health,is less than 1% of the population. However, the cumulative incidence in the consumption of this drug in inhabitants between 12 and 65 years increased 67% between 2008 and 2011.

The group with the highest records of heroin use is that between 26 and 34 years of age , which in that period registered an increase of 107%.

These percentages of increase in consumption in Mexico coincide with those reported in the United States by the Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration (SAMHSA), which indicates that from 2008 to 2012 it increased 70%.

This is from 3 years ago and while the the total percentage then was small look at the rate of increase.  One percent of the population would be over one million users.  That is a significant population and if the rate of increase continued to the present, it would have doubled.

The cartels are the drug dealers in this country and they remove any competition in a most definite and final manner as is demonstrated quite routinely in the news.  I believe it is logical to conclude the addicts are buying from the cartels.  The other references do cover drugs like meth being sold to young people and again, the cartels just about have to be the primary source.  Meth is every bit as bad as heroin if not worse IMO. 

The cartels may not allow their sicarios to use but it appears they have no problem selling to outsiders of any age. 

Thanks for the reference it is a good read.  I wonder if there is a later reference as this one clearly shows a very rapidly growing problem.  Why so many people are into this crap is a total mystery to me, I will go to my grave without understanding this phenomenon at all.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mainecoons said:

This is from 3 years ago and while the the total percentage then was small look at the rate of increase.  One percent of the population would be over one million users.  That is a significant population and if the rate of increase continued to the present, it would have doubled.

 

The article says "less" than one percent. This could mean 1000 people. A 67 percent increase over a three-year period would equal 1670 people. If you have a credible reference to these millions of users, let's see it. I don't have to help you do your research on this subject...just trying to distinguish facts from hysteria.

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