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MEETING AGAINST THE NOISE IN GDL


ezpz
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Here is a link using google translate, don't know if this will work in English, if not, use your own translator:  http://www.informador.com.mx/jalisco/2017/731738/6/formalizan-propuesta-de-ley-antiruido.htm

The cruzadacontraelruido FB page now has well over 21,000 likes.  In case you missed it, a couple months ago over 60 bars and other noisy places in GDL were suddenly closed for noise violations, some heavily fined.  Don't know the outcome of each situation, but the backlash against the noise is huge.

Over the past 7 years I have posted much about the noise problem in Ajijic due to the fact that for 8 of my 10 years here, I have lived within 1 block of El Barco or Plaza Bugambilia who have each put out a total of 4 unbearable, solid Noise/Years, sometimes overlapping, in addition to a very noisy nearby carpenter shop situation that now seems resolved.

Some comments on these threads reveal a complete lack of understanding of the intensity of this problem, probably because the posters have never lived so close to unbearably noisy places. Tepid measures such as ear plugs and "white noise machines " whatever those are, are useless partly because the MX people can't buy these things or just up and move, are you kidding?  

Some posters imply that I somehow need to learn about Mexican "culture" when I actually dove head first into it when I arrived here because the traditions are much more fun than the gringo scene!  I was a Fiesta-head, taking hundreds of fotos and videos of the fiestas and processions which used to get thousands of views online before smart phones changed everything.  I go places where gringos fear to tread - like Full Moon and other pre-hispanic type rituals which are very enjoyable.

I speak passable Spanish and my reality-based feelings about the noise are shared by my Mexican neighbors as well - we are united against the noise - because THEY are the ones who have to get up and go to work and school everyday, and do not appreciate the ever increasing onslaught of commercial noise which has spread like a cancer throughout much of MX.  In previous years, this applied to very loud gringo rock bands as well.   It is a great myth, another Gringo Urban Legend, that "Mexicans like everything loud."

The true Mexican fiestas and traditions happen only sporadically, or annually at very limited times, unlike commercial invasive noise which often continues all year around!  The fiestas have always been ritual times for the whole community to get together in prayers and thanks at the church along with nightly music, drinking, dancing, and staying up late for fun, just for 9 days.  Afterwards, things would quiet down in these small towns.

I also have almost 20 years of professional experience working with amplified sound in major competitive urban music scenes where the protocol regarding acoustic issues is already baked into the culture, so we never had these "issues" up there!  It's very easy for me to discern that virtually no one here who uses sound equipment knows how to do so, especially given the fact of the open-air, concrete construction here which amplifies the sound even more, sending it out in loud echos far beyond its source.

I also was present in SF in the 60s, when the local rock bands started becoming overnight national sensations and drawing larger and larger crowds.  I saw how they had to keep changing and creating new venues because of neighbor complaints, when the free concerts at GG park started drawing 10,000 people.  It was NEVER OK to continue bothering the neighbors!  

So, it is quite fair to point out that the root of the noise problem is technological ignorance combined with the great ease of purchasing loud sound equipment, a relatively new development.  Plus, it's a macho thing partly show off how much money you can waste on way over-sized equipment.  The actual amount of noise-makers is quite small - mostly young males trying to copy trends from the USA.  The neighbors typically resent the sonic intrusion into their/our home lives, but have been very stoic about it, not realizing that there is a Federal Law of Sound in MX, recourse does exist, and that continued complaining to the local licensing boss eventually pays off somewhat, at least.

Attached are 3 fotos from the Human Be-In San Francisco 1967.  Note the size of the equipment in the background.  Then note the size of the crowd.

Have a great day!

Just to keep the newbies updated, I do get tired of posting the same things over and over, but people sometimes still need explanations.  The ONLY solution to the noise problem is for affected neighbors to unite and fight.  This probably will require that you speak Spanish, one key to true acculturation.  

human5.jpg

HumanBeIn.jpg

human.jpg

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Sorry EZPZ - I have to dispute the equipment size thing, the sound at the Be-In would have been atrocious, a mere distraction to those in the crowd. You already gave an indication of the wave of he future - the ubiquitous Marshall stacks - they were very loud, but not meant for outdoor stadiums. So loud, they had to start miking the drum kits, and had have monitors because the performers could not even hear themselves sing or talk. This meant a soundboard, and really big events would have to use multiple soundboards. The late sixties, early seventies, eighties, definitely had its share of very loud music. From the Sex Pistols and the Damned (who played so loud to cover they really couldn't play), Motorhead was deafening, AC/DC was so loud that last year their guitarist went completely deaf. Black Sabbath, so many others. Satirized in the movie "This is Spinal Tap" where their multiple Marshal stacks were modified to be able to play at "11" volume. Iggy Pop playing 1969, in 1969 - this was loud, loud, loud - the Godfather of Punk, some might say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT0L2Xg5k4c

 

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30 minutes ago, k2tog said:

You're now upset about noise in Guadalajara? #snark 

You missed the point he was making:  Guadalajara is doing something about the noisy venues.  There is nothing about the "culture" here or there demanding over amplified noise, and I agree that those ordinances against it (instituded by the Mexicans) are a good thing.

BTW:  a lot of people who were at those incredibly noisy events back "in the day" are wearing hearing aids now or it's "HUH?".

 Personally, I don't have a problem.  No excess noise in my neighborhood and my hereditary bad hearing has arrived, but I have plenty of empathy for people who have to get up in the morning for work or school as well as for older foks who need their sleep and for anyone who has to put up with what passes for entertainment but isn't.

I'd like to hear from anyone who has an argument FOR over amplified noise.  Speak up!

 

 

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7 minutes ago, betty7 said:

mexicans who like loud late & messy: are usually loweclass OR very young teenages. not too much different than many parts of the world. i have been to very clean quiet areas of mexico. there may bave been a few festivals but far few bewteen.

Very true! 

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Aside from the fact there should be no serious belief at this point that loud and late bar noise is some pillar of Mexican culture, I wonder about the implications for this area from the growing crackdown in GDL.  

Specifically, I think we all know at this point Lakeside is becoming a suburb of GDL and it would be hard to miss the crowds bouncing and jolting down Chapala highway on weekends and holidays all over this area.

I would be hard pressed at this time to find any evidence our local government is as concerned about our peace and quiet as the governments in GDL and Zopopan have become.  Indeed, we've had several totally inappropriate raves and a number of loud, late concerts inflicted on the area already which were given permits by said local government.  I've no doubt we would have more except for the very strong local protests that followed.

The kind of noise that has led to the reported shutdowns in these stories are not all that unusual from a growing number of local bars and I see no evidence that any steps have been taken to curb it here.  As the customer base from GDL grows, one wonders if the noise will continue to grow along with it.

I think we should all be a bit concerned that given this environment it may be only a matter of time before the folks being curbed up there figure out this area is ripe for the taking and follow the Tapatio crowd down.  From their vantage point, I would conclude there is little in their way here, just grease the right palms and you're good to go.

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I know that some old farts on this board will say {Don't like it leave}  the point is  there is no need for outside people to come into this area and bring with them the same noise polution they are leaving.  Almost like the muslins who leave the hell hole they lived in and try to turn their now new countey into the same.   If only they would respect the piece and quiet that this area offers how sweet it would be. I think ezpz has it right.    There is a differce between music and @#$%^&*()_+ noise

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2 hours ago, gringal said:

I'd like to hear from anyone who has an argument FOR over amplified noise.  Speak up!

Some of the greatest, most memorable times of my life were listening to and playing over amplified music as a young man. Shame to totally deny it to the locals, many of whom can't afford to bus into one the very expensive, sound approved, sanitized stadiums and venues in Guadalajara. There has to be a balance. Maybe it has swung too far the other way, I don't know, I would never think of living Centro anywhere, unless I absolutely had to. And by the way what do "muslins" have to do with anything. 

(edited by Mod to remove gratuitous personal comment)

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The events I referred too featured hundreds of buses and cars that brought in thousands of people from out of town and were characterized by open drug selling, tagging, littering and rowdy behavior.   They were most certainly not local.

I doubt the local young folks have the money or the numbers to justify out of town promoters conducting these large and elaborate events just for them.  From time to time as part of other celebrations the local government or business community does sponsor rock and banda bands at the plaza on weekends.  There was a balance and that was it.

When I was a young person the adults in the community understood very clearly that events of the other kind were anything but good for anyone and particularly the young.  What they are is using and abusing the young for the promoters' profit and pay for play for the local government.  

We are abrogating our responsibility to protect the young from this sort of thing and the consequences are everywhere around us to be seen.

I see no reason why our "centros" Lakeside should become over loud, over late concert venues or bar districts for out of towners.  One of the interesting aspects of the GDL/Zopopan crack down is that there, like here, bars and "restaurants" are widely distributed in residential neighborhoods.  The people there have come to realize that left unchecked, these establishments can and will destroy the living environment of those neighborhoods.  They are putting a stop to it.

If we don't, it won't take long for the noise/booze for profit crowd there to realize they can get away with it here.  Indeed, some of the local bars have already done so.  In the absence of a government that puts the community environment first, this problem is increasing steadily in ALL the local centros.

One of the amenities of this area is the ability to live in walkable towns instead of being chained to cars in the suburbs as most people are NOB and here in many of the fraccs.  You may not be aware of this but a lot of people live in our centros, Mexican and expat alike.  I'd be willing to bet the great majority of the population here lives in or very close to centros.

If all the "townies" decided they had to move to the fraccs because their environment was sacrificed on the altar of profits, they wouldn't be able to.

We do not live here for the purpose of having the environment destroyed by lax government and out of town promoters.  This cavalier attitude of "move if you don't like it" is particularly callous towards the less affluent who are largely concentrated in the centros and most assuredly do not have the means to move.

It appears some of these events are now being held in Chapala with increasing frequency.  I have to wonder how the broader community there feels about this.  Our experience indicates that if the folks there don't rise up, the frequency will just keep increasing.

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17 hours ago, betty7 said:

mexicans who like loud late & messy: are usually loweclass OR very young teenages. not too much different than many parts of the world. i have been to very clean quiet areas of mexico. there may bave been a few festivals but far few between. 

it's always low class to annoy your neighbors, no matter how much money you have. there are some tapatios building a family party house 2 doors down form us and we're wondering if it will be every weekend or twice a year--ezpz will be able to hear it from her house....this is a 3 story structure with a huge covered mirador with large grill, a pool and 3 story casita for 10 in the back. already looking at contingency plans....

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5 hours ago, betty7 said:

 "memorable times" in some old persons life is of no interest to the general public. no one cares. we dont need a dossier of rock & roll, how loud it was or is. tell that to the mexicans who signed the petition. 

How many in a city of 4 million signed that petition?

You are wrong, the rock and roll/ rebel stage is tremendously important for cultural development in a diverse society. The general public is fascinated with this concept, witness the success of movies like "Footloose", staring Kevin Bacon - a Chicago boy moving to a small town where rock n' roll and dancing is prohibited. Or one of my favourites "Cry Baby" starring Johnny Depp, with the "drapes" and the "squares", one of John Waters very finest films. What is pathetic, however, are those who hang on to their rock rebel roots, way past their sell by dates. They end up in small towns like this, telling everyone they are "professional" musicians, when they are lucky to make 200 pesos per night boring audiences to death.

Cry Baby Trailer

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5 hours ago, betty7 said:

cafemediterranio, lowerclass people make money but it dosnt change them. sloth is sloth.

Huh?

Definition of sloth

1:  disinclination to action or labor

2:  any of various slow-moving arboreal edentate mammals 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Hola!!  i thought I was banned from the board for a while!   jajajaja, glad to be back.

Sorry, I regret that I forgot to make my salient point regarding those fotos from SF 1967, at a time when rock music crowds were just starting to grow.  That crowd was estimated at 30,000 in Golden Gate Park, SFs equivalent of NY Central Park, very large.  

The sound equipment that you see in those fotos is only slightly bigger than what I have personally seen in bars and very ill-conceived "rock concerts" here in this area!  With an audience of maybe 25 people!  Do you see the problem???   There is NO reason for anyone to have such large equipment in such a small venue, plus it is a lot of work to lug that equipment around for measly one-nighter gigs.  That demonstrates the complete lack of knowledge of sound equipment in this area which is a major factor in the noise problem.

One day, when I am so inclined, I would like to post some individual examples of the quite unbelievable noise I have personally had blasted into my house.  This has never been a theoretical, cultural debate to me!  It's more a matter of survival for me and other neighbors of affected areas.  If many complaints are received by Chapala police and office of Reglamentos, they will get tired of the complaints and do something, sort of, ojala!!  As I have stated before, there has been some improvement in the Plaza B gym and El Barco situations.  We can only hope it continues and that people have come to their senses.

Please do visit the FB cruzadacontraelruido page to stay updated and informed on how many Mexicans Really Feel about the noise.  You can make and send videos of a noisy event to them at the time of occurrence.  Dr. Gabriel Garcia, who turned me on to all this, tells me that this organization has a protocol to contact law enforcement at the time to hopefully do something.  A meeting was held to lay out certain protocol for amplified music equipment in commercial venues, including bars, gyms, and evento places.   An avalanche of complaints might help the noise makers see that their excessive volumes are actually hurting their cause.  

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On 7/25/2017 at 1:40 PM, CHILLIN said:

Sorry EZPZ - I have to dispute the equipment size thing, the sound at the Be-In would have been atrocious, a mere distraction to those in the crowd. You already gave an indication of the wave of he future - the ubiquitous Marshall stacks - they were very loud, but not meant for outdoor stadiums. So loud, they had to start miking the drum kits, and had have monitors because the performers could not even hear themselves sing or talk. This meant a soundboard, and really big events would have to use multiple soundboards. The late sixties, early seventies, eighties, definitely had its share of very loud music. From the Sex Pistols and the Damned (who played so loud to cover they really couldn't play), Motorhead was deafening, AC/DC was so loud that last year their guitarist went completely deaf. Black Sabbath, so many others. Satirized in the movie "This is Spinal Tap" where their multiple Marshal stacks were modified to be able to play at "11" volume. Iggy Pop playing 1969, in 1969 - this was loud, loud, loud - the Godfather of Punk, some might say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FT0L2Xg5k4c

 

Those super loud rock bands that you mention were playing in major stadiums, not small town small venues with no soundproofing.  Big Difference!  The whole issue here is how that loud music from the USA is translated to here in MX in small venues with echo-chamber acoustics.  Answer:  Not Well.  Hence, the problem.

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On 7/26/2017 at 3:27 PM, CHILLIN said:

 

How many in a city of 4 million signed that petition?

You are wrong, the rock and roll/ rebel stage is tremendously important for cultural development in a diverse society. The general public is fascinated with this concept, witness the success of movies like "Footloose", staring Kevin Bacon - a Chicago boy moving to a small town where rock n' roll and dancing is prohibited. Or one of my favourites "Cry Baby" starring Johnny Depp, with the "drapes" and the "squares", one of John Waters very finest films. What is pathetic, however, are those who hang on to their rock rebel roots, way past their sell by dates. They end up in small towns like this, telling everyone they are "professional" musicians, when they are lucky to make 200 pesos per night boring audiences to death.

Cry Baby Trailer

Once again, I'm very sorry to have to state a very obvious fact.  The MX teens are not at all deprived by not having big rock concerts here.  Haven't you ever been to a real fiesta???  The patron saint fiestas in every town are packed with young people dancing to banda music - same with the loud late banda concerts.  A 9-day fiesta with live music and dancing is like a rock festival would be to teens up north.  It's a special occasion every year, plus assorted Virgin fiestas, that the townspeople look forward to planning and participating in all year around.  The fiestas are deeply meaningful traditions to the people here. I speak Spanish and my MX neighbors were very sick of all the rock  (and techno DJs, rap,etc.) music!  They were glad to have me speak out against it.

There is NO need for the ugly loud type of rock music that finds its way here.  The few attempts to foist it on the public here have been failures financially and succeeded only in severely aggravating the neighbors.  Let me know if you need specific examples.  I have heard it all!  El Barco tortured the neighbors for 4 solid years with a barrage of super loud and lousy rock bands.  I'm to the point where I hate rock music, especially the ego tripping guitarists.  I've always been much more of a fan of Soul Music in all forms.  I've seen water guys visible perk up when they come in to my house and I'm playing Motown or Earth Wind and Fire - they really liked that, it's much closer to MX music with a lot of indigenous rhythm and great heartfelt singing.

Overall, I have noticed an improvement of the noise around my place, last hold out is some of the exercise classes at Plaza B gym.  People in general who used to be noisy are now calming down, even the dogs.  Gracias a Dios!!!!  Everyone is sick of the noise.  Just let us get back to some PEACE!!  Queremos la Paz!!!!!

 

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On 8/6/2017 at 10:42 AM, ezpz said:

Hola!!  i thought I was banned from the board for a while!   jajajaja, glad to be back.

Sorry, I regret that I forgot to make my salient point regarding those fotos from SF 1967, at a time when rock music crowds were just starting to grow.  That crowd was estimated at 30,000 in Golden Gate Park, SFs equivalent of NY Central Park, very large.  

The sound equipment that you see in those fotos is only slightly bigger than what I have personally seen in bars and very ill-conceived "rock concerts" here in this area!  With an audience of maybe 25 people!  Do you see the problem???   There is NO reason for anyone to have such large equipment in such a small venue, plus it is a lot of work to lug that equipment around for measly one-nighter gigs.  That demonstrates the complete lack of knowledge of sound equipment in this area which is a major factor in the noise problem.

One day, when I am so inclined, I would like to post some individual examples of the quite unbelievable noise I have personally had blasted into my house.  This has never been a theoretical, cultural debate to me!  It's more a matter of survival for me and other neighbors of affected areas.  If many complaints are received by Chapala police and office of Reglamentos, they will get tired of the complaints and do something, sort of, ojala!!  As I have stated before, there has been some improvement in the Plaza B gym and El Barco situations.  We can only hope it continues and that people have come to their senses.

Please do visit the FB cruzadacontraelruido page to stay updated and informed on how many Mexicans Really Feel about the noise.  You can make and send videos of a noisy event to them at the time of occurrence.  Dr. Gabriel Garcia, who turned me on to all this, tells me that this organization has a protocol to contact law enforcement at the time to hopefully do something.  A meeting was held to lay out certain protocol for amplified music equipment in commercial venues, including bars, gyms, and evento places.   An avalanche of complaints might help the noise makers see that their excessive volumes are actually hurting their cause.  

You're right. I use a 15 watt tube head with a single 12 " speaker cabinet. Plenty loud for a lot of indoor venues. Marshall stacks are really a bit passe IMO. I sure wouldn't want to be trucking those around to gigs anymore. From what I've noticed , more always seems to be better in the volume dep't. But then I'm 62. There was a time when I too thought that louder had to be better.

 

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I have watched a lot of venues here setting up. There is only ONE procedure I have ever seen regardless of venue size - turn the volume up until you get feedback and then backoff a tad. i was recently at a graduation party at the Huerta evento. As they set up, I gave the thumbs down when the volume got too high and the boss did moderate. Interestingly, the kid left with the equipment would come in and turn it up more and more each time. He did not sit there, but, went outside. Rather than cause a scene we left.

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On 8/10/2017 at 2:41 PM, betty7 said:

kids should not be in charge.

Exactly!!  Trouble is, the people running equipment all have the experience of kids, which is to say, none.  And that is why things are so noisy here.  They are trying to copy things from up north without a clue as to how it is actually done.  And why should they??  Most Mexicans are already happy with their own culture and music!  

Only continuing complaints will get through to all the noise-makers and enablers AND licensing officials that people are sick and tired of it, mad as hell, and not going to take it anymore.  The cruzadacontraelruido in GDL shows a critical mass of people are fighting this noise problem.  But, Mexicans are not accustomed to having faith in their govt. to take proper action in behalf of the people, and there is no existing protocol for these occurrences since all this is rather new.  Therefore, the noise is not really part of "the culture" but rather an insidious outside influence which is diluting and damaging the real culture here.  A few years ago there were about 4x as many noise/hours from bars (in Ajijic) as from the traditional fiestas which actually draw far larger crowds.

And here I am, a foreigner, defending the beautiful, rich, and vibrant real culture and traditions of Mexico.

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More thoughts... the kids here who claim to like super loud music do not realize that high volume levels came about when the crowd size was growing much larger back in the 60s.  Having loud music in a small venue is just plain stupid.  They really should just save up their pesos and go to real arena concerts if they want to hear very loud music, which would be a rare special occasion.  Continuous exposure to loud music through speakers or ear buds or headphones is damaging to the hearing and some of these kids are probably actually going deaf.  That is an incurable problem!

You have to wonder why they think they like it so loud.  It wasn't that way when I was young in SF.  No one played loud just for the sake of it, things got loud because the crowd sizes kept growing very fast with the super talented and inspired musicians in the Bay Area.  I think a lot of kids are actually very unhappy these days, they want something to blast them out of their misery.  The music itself is also way below what it was in past years and a lot of young people will agree with that if they have been exposed to the great music of past eras.

The normal logical chain of events in the real world of the music/entertainment business was that FIRST, musicians and singers work hard to hone their skills at playing, performing, and songwriting.  Then, they work hard to find exposure to larger audiences if they weren't already in a major music scene area.  Then, they might get a manager and/or recording contract and put out an album and gain national publicity and exposure.  After having lots of record sales/downloads, whatever,  ONLY THEN would they book themselves into large venues where they would be playing loud.  Playing at those rock star volume levels in small, open air, concrete venues is really putting the carriage before the horse besides being extremely aggravating to the neighbors!  I think the Mexican noisemakers really need to understand that.

When cars started appearing here, the infrastructure and rules of the road had to be devised and enforced.  Same thing with garbage collection, recycling, all phases of the internet, etc.  It is a matter of healthy adaptation to new modern technology.  

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