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I do not disagree that if you do not speak Spanish are not here, cannot take care of the problem, you speak with a lawyer or a notary. I did just that and called the State before I went to the office to ask them why they said the Syte was asking for papers.

I also do not see how ignoring them or slamming the door  on them is going to take anyone anywhere.  I believe in going to see the people  who ask to see them and tell them in person no if that is what I want to do. Running away , hiding behind a door is not the way to make the problem to go away or the way to live.

If people do not speak Spanish fluently they can go to you or their lawyers and ask for help but I do not think poor mouthing city hall  on the forum is the way to go to solve a problem with them. 

Intercasa you offered your advice and it was appreciated, however the harangue from some other poster was not.


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12 hours ago, Intercasa said:

Please feel free to volunteer and take the sick, elderly and their documents to City Hall and help the others when the request was issued under false pretenses.  I am cautious when an authority needs to use false pretenses or false statements to get something but then again I have seen alot.  An improper fishing expedition may not yield good results for all. 

"False pretenses."  

As I noted previously, respectfully I think Spencer probably knows more about this topic than we do.  He has specifically explained to us why this activity is not being conducted by the legal rules of a state audit.

At this point I believe we have a fairly clear picture of this situation although why this fishing expedition is going on at all is still a mystery to me.  It will be up to the individuals going forward to decide how to handle it.

Thank you Spencer.




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What id the false statement Intercasa? Do we know there is no audit of Chapala? 

 I like to understand things and right now I do not: . it says Chapala (it is their letter) wants " la documentación" "con la finalidad de estar en condiciones de dar respuesta a la Auditoria Superior del Estado de Jalisco en tiempo y forma, evitando con ello se finque alguna multa o crédito fiscal a su Predio por omisión de algún pago. o por ocultar o negar información".

Are we talking about the same letter?

They say they want the documentation to answer the State... no?  Are they lying ? Do we know the State is not asking questions to them?

Doesn´t Chapala have the right to ask for copies of documents to answer  an audit? Or is there simply no audit  and they are planning to collect fines for people no showing up and get money that way?

I would like to know what is in it for Chapala to send 3 people to houses to ask people to present some copies of predial or water...a multa if we do not comply?



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OK, time for a review here:

Spencer posted this on Monday, May 8:


This is a scam as the legal foundation is false and the supposed authority asking only audits governments or those who receive government funds.  In theory the people doing this can and should be arrested by the police as they are using false pretexts and fake information in flagrancia.  People need to stand up and shame the government into stopping their petty scams and demand those who are scamming go to jail and lose their jobs or else they will keep scamming and business as usual. 


We were told people should say: No debemos brindar la documentación que nos solicitan que demos dar respuesta en atención al oficio aclarando que NO tenemos relación comercial con el ayuntamiento y que por ende NO se le atribuye la facultad en representación de la Auditoria Superior de requerir los documentos, y solicitar que se envie COPIA PARA LA Auditoria Superior, las facultades de la Auditoria Superior vienen en el articulo 35bis de la Constitución Política del Estado de Jalisco

Art. 35 Bis. La revisión y auditoría pública de la cuenta pública y de los estados
financieros de las entidades a las que se refiere el siguiente párrafo, es una
facultad soberana, inalienable e imprescriptible del Congreso del Estado; el cual
se apoya para tales efectos en la Auditoría Superior, que es un organismo técnico,
profesional y especializado, de revisión y examen del Poder Legislativo, dotado
con autonomía técnica y de gestión, con personalidad jurídica, patrimonio propio y
capacidad de decisión, integrado por personal profesional, seleccionado por
oposición, bajo el régimen de servicio profesional de carrera.
La Auditoría Superior, en el ejercicio de sus atribuciones, puede decidir sobre su
organización interna, funcionamiento y resoluciones, en los términos que disponga
la ley.
Corresponde a la Auditoría Superior del estado de Jalisco la revisión de las
cuentas públicas y estados financieros de:
I. Los poderes Ejecutivo, Legislativo y Judicial;
II. Los organismos públicos autónomos;
III. La Universidad de Guadalajara y los demás organismos públicos
descentralizados, empresas de participación estatal mayoritaria y fideicomisos
públicos del Poder Ejecutivo;
IV. Los ayuntamientos, organismos públicos, descentralizados, empresas de
participación municipal mayoritaria y fideicomisos públicos municipales.
También será objeto de la revisión de la Auditoría Superior del estado de Jalisco,
en los términos de la ley, cualquier persona o entidad pública o privada que reciba
o maneje recursos públicos.

Loosely speaking, this is how that translates:


We do not have to provide the documentation that we request that we give answer in attention to the office clarifying that we have no business relationship with the city and therefore is not attributed the power on behalf of the Superior Audit to require the documents and request that Send COPY FOR THE Superior Audit, the faculties of the Superior Audit come in article 35bis of the Political Constitution of the State of Jalisco.

Art. 35 Bis. The public audit and review of the public account and the
Financial statements of the entities referred to in the following paragraph, is a
Sovereign, inalienable and imprescriptible faculty of the State Congress; which
Is supported for such purposes in the Superior Audit, which is a technical body,
Professional and specialized review and review of the Legislative Branch, endowed with
With technical and management autonomy, with legal personality, own assets and
Decision-making, composed of professional staff selected by
Opposition, under the regime of professional career service.
The Superior Audit, in the exercise of its powers, can decide on its
Internal organization, functioning and resolutions, in the terms that it disposes
the law.
It is the responsibility of the Superior Audit of the state of Jalisco to review the
Public accounts and financial statements of:
I. The Executive, Legislative and Judicial Powers;
II. Autonomous public bodies;
III. The University of Guadalajara and other public bodies
Decentralized, majority state-owned enterprises and trusts
Of the Executive Branch;
IV. The municipalities, public bodies, decentralized,
Majority municipal participation and municipal public trusts.
It will also be subject to the review of the Superior Audit of the state of Jalisco,
In the terms of the law, any person or public or private entity that receives
Or manage public resources.

bmh then posted this:


Intercasa Are they doing this to Mexicans as well.. On our street the people with foreign names were the ones who were hit..to forget oi.

I spoke to a notary that I was seeing on something else and he told me they are trying to see who did remodelling without permit and get money from people. He told me to go over there and tell them I am not remodelling and tell them 

I am going there tomorrow, I will have you letter as a back up..iI will be interested to hear what they have to say..

Johanson they are asking for certified copies of 7 different documents which they should have anyways.. copies of predial copies of original permit for construction of the house

copies of original contracts for water sewer 

permit for remodelling  

copy or escritura and so on..

Of course at the end they tell you you will be fine if you do not comply.

In this subsequent thread on this topic, bmh seems to be indicating he/she was asked for water and tax receipts only.  


NLU it is a tempest in a teapot. I also spoke with the notario and then went to City Hall with some of the papers.. They took one copy of my receipt for the predial and a copy of the Simapa receipts for 2016 and a copy of a new contract from SIMAPA.. No big deal show up when they tell you to show up with your receipts and you will be done in 5 minutes.

They told me it was an audit of their papers and that the State wanted the receipts from the contribuyentes rather than one of their department... NO BIG DEAL

Unless there was and is someone present from the "Auditoria Superior" of the state government, how can municipal employees claim to be conducting an audit when there appears to be no basis in the law for such delegation of authority?

Exactly what is being audited?  SIMAPA, the municipal tax collection office, building permits or the lack thereof?  

Spencer, are you stating that if a LEGAL audit of some sort was being conducted here by the Auditoria Superior they would have to be directly in charge of it and present?  Can they delegate the "leg work" to the entity being audited without direct supervision and verification?

bmh when you went in was anyone from the Auditoria Superior there and provided ID confirming that?  Did you show them all 7 documents but they only copied three?  

Also, not sure what a "contract" with SIMAPA would be.  We've never had any formal contract with them in 10 years, we just go in and pay the SIMAPA bill annually and receive a receipt.

Unless one is the original owner, not sure why subsequent owners would have copies of original building permits, plans or anything like that.  Our place is about 18 years old and we sure don't have any of that.  We do have our property tax and SIMAPA receipts from the time we bought the house, 10 years ago.

Let's continue to seek clarity here.


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The Auditoria has no jurisdiction over regular people unless they get funding from governments. 

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The employees of Chapala are saying THEY ARE THE ONES WHO ARE AUDITED. Chapala is asking for documentation from t the regular people.Chapala is not conducting an audit they are the ones being audited.

From what I gathered the Dpt of Apremios is the one being audited. I asked them what was their function and they say to collect the Predial.. 

The letter is obviously a form letter ...most people unless they just build do not have the original water, contracts or construction permits etc..and if it was required for people to have them , the notarios would pass them on.

I told the dir of Apremios there was no way to get those permits and he said no problem I just need a copy of the predial receipt for 2016 and  receipts for SIMAPA: He made the copies right there. 

Yes , you do get permits for water sewer etc.. when building a house but those are not passed on by the notarios.

I just got a new contract because I had water put in on a separate part of the garden that was part of a different lot and I had to get a contract, I have the original contract on that one so contracts get issued but I sure do not have any of the original paperwork of the house that was built 50 years ago...

Mainecoons when I spoke to the Dir of Apremios he told me he was the one who needed the copies because the State was auditing them . No one from the State was present.

I asked why he was not getting copies from Catastro he said because they were  a different department and the audit wanted him to show his documentation. 

The man was pleasant and answered all my questions in a satisfactory manner. 


I think Intercasa´s point is clear, the State cannot audit us.. 

It was clear to me the State was auditing Apremios hence Chapala needed some copies..The letter is asking for everything in case they need it  but unless they are dealing with new construction they will not get everything.  

I think the employees that came by the house should be clearer on what they really need and what is going on... Imagine not speaking the language and having 3 people showing up at someone's house to ask for  some paperwork... One guy and 2 witnesses nevertheless...

They also where asking for my husband who is not fluent and I had to insist I was 50% owner so I had the right to answer just as much so they put me down as his legal representant  after a call to their boss.. They really should have some letter in English explaining the whole thing so people would understand what they wanted ,  They know there is a communication problem and really did not do anything to help people who did not speak Spanish.


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Thanks for the detailed explanation.  Very helpful.

I guess I can't fathom why "Chapala needed some copies" of things like tax payments and water payments.  As you noted in your post I quoted above, they should have all this stuff already.  Are they also not able to keep complete records?

Also it appears they are very selective as to whom they are asking.  Is this a random sample or are they fishing for something else?

I still see no legal basis for their apparently conducting an investigation of themselves.  Based on the law cited I don't see how they can demand documents they should already have on behalf of a claimed investigation.

Spencer, I'm wondering if you have any contacts in the Auditoria Superior.  Maybe we should ask them if they are auditing Chapala.  

As bmh pointed out, they need to be a lot more proactive in advising the community what they are trying to accomplish here.  Showing up at random doors and demanding people march down to city hall with documents they should already have doesn't engender cooperation IMHO.

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I think that when Chapala has legit requests they should have an interview in a local Spanish and English speaking paper, I think people would cooperate a whole lot faster if they knew that it was legit, that the copies did not have to be certified and that they had to bring what they had and it was ok if they did not have some of those papers.

Sending 3 officials door to door may be the way to do it but it sure does intimidate, the Mexicans do not open their doors either and  figure they will all go away and forget about it.. which  may be what happens . Also they should have someone who can speak English with them or a number where people would call and ask questions.

I was told that there is probably something in my records that attracted attention. In our case we have owned the house for 17 years and I decided to go on meter, when I did that I found out I had to water lines like I had 2 electrical lines because I had 2 lots and of course one water line  was done without permit so I signed a contract for the line.. A new water contract on a unbuilt lot attracted attention.. Apparently I was told some people predial went down because of subdivision and that was another  abnormality and so on.Some people have wells and no permits and so on.. There is probably some discrepancy between the records they have and what is on the ground and this is how names come up.I would think they have random samples of people too but all of that could be explained in an interview.. Maybe the Guadalajara reporter could do an interview with the director of Apremios to clarify things...

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One PS they give you phone number to call if you have questions(in Spanish) I called and I was told the line was out of order and would be reported as out of order.. I asked them if that was their idea of a joke and they hang up on me...

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Thanks, I just read it.  Unfortunately it is pretty sketchy.  It was nice of them to notice that maybe people are less than enthusiastic about opening their doors to three young guys in civilian clothes.  Maybe that is because we are all aware of similar appearances in some home invasion crimes here?  

It doesn't explain why this was done with no notice.  Since it was targeted at properties over 1000 square meters it would seem to be pretty simple to send someone around first posting a notice.  And since you are looking for voluntary cooperation, perhaps recognizing that a whole lot of the people you are contacting don't have the level of Spanish that supports translating and understanding legal documents.  

So maybe next time an explanation of what you are doing and what you need in both languages would get you better results?  Governments NOB have long done this as a matter of course.  

It also doesn't explain what is behind this deal other than some sort of audit of the Chapala government.  My question still remains why anyone would have the Chapala government in effect auditing itself.  If there is a concern that, for example, sums were collected for property taxes and water bills but those sums somehow disappeared between the time we paid and got our receipts and the money was recorded, or not, by the government.

They should have a copy of everything they are asking from us and the information on their copy should be the same as on our copy.  Why don't they or why aren't they?

It still feels like sending the fox to watch the hen house to me.

Just a comment for the GDL reporter.  You missed most of the story.  Perhaps if you devoted more effort to in depth investigation and reporting of important local stories like this and less effort to constantly treating us to your highly biased view of U.S. politics your paper could be a positive force for improving a local government that could stand quite a lot of same.

Thank you.


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I would think the audit is going to compare Chapala receipts and the receipts provided by the taxpayers.. A good way to see if there are discrepency between what we paid and what Chapala received or say to the State  they received..

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Only problem is that they asked for many items and many werent payment receipts. 

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Yes that part is a little strange.. What took me a little by surprise is that first they did not check in their files what they wanted for me , did not check before they answered to my questions " do you want a copy of the escritura, remodelling project", did not need to see any fee paid for that either...but then if they were only being audited for the 2015 fiscal I did not have any changes or permit for that year except for my water contract. Maybe they did ask for the other papers to people who build in 2015... One person only has a small window of the whole picture.

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construction permits, remodelling permit , permits for well or water connection and sewage can indicate new construction so I bet they look for payment of predial or increase of predial in connection with those. Although they are not payment receipts they can indicate a change in the way the predial should be calculated..


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Quite a few years ago, the Ayuntamiento de Zapopan was caught having used false receipts for certain payments received mainly construction licenses. They used these and didn't report anything, simply said stole the money. Probably someone in the Auditoria suspects Chapala is doing something like this. It is also common practice to audit corrupt Ayuntamientos in the final years of the administration, better to do it yourself (same political party) and acquit of all charges than have the next guy maybe from another political group doing the audit.

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Being one of the many who had one left on his door, and found be my housesitter/ security guard, I am very happy that I could turn to this forum and listen to all of your comments, especially those made mainecoons and Spencer.

Thank you all for all of your comments, and again especially Intercasa

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49 minutes ago, johanson said:

Being one of the many who had one left on his door, and found be my housesitter/ security guard, I am very happy that I could turn to this forum and listen to all of your comments, especially those made mainecoons and Spencer.

Thank you all for all of your comments, and again especially Intercasa

But I guess you did read Dale Palfrey report in this weeks Guad Reporter which attempts to clarify the reasons for the visits etc. Maybe not the best organized program but should shoot done some of the conspiracy pundits that City Hall was out to get you

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7 hours ago, lakeside7 said:

But I guess you did read Dale Palfrey report in this weeks Guad Reporter which attempts to clarify the reasons for the visits etc. Maybe not the best organized program but should shoot done some of the conspiracy pundits that City Hall was out to get you

a total puff piece on this subject by the Guad reporter. City Hall is out to get us and some people are just now wising up, may be higher ups got the word and want to see some proof. We were held up when we went to pay our taxes in January of 2016. we have always paid up early and never any problem. not this time. the cashier instructed us to go to a little office and the fellow actually wagged his finger at us and showed us google photos of our house and told us we had done a lot of construction and we would have to allow a worker to go and take photographs and measurements in our home. no way....we contacted our lawyer. he submitted our escritura, approved construction plans of 10 years ago and still they wanted to charge us 15,000 pesos in multas and fees. we explained that we had done exactly what was required and paid what was asked and didn't think we owed anything. finally after almost 11 months of haggling we settled on 5,000p administration costs and triple the tax amount--still a deal. now where that money went...also the fees for renewing our business licence increased dramatically with new requirements to show paid water and predial--our landlords--and were charged by the size of our sign another 550p and 10% of our liquor licence fee--880p--for alcohol related services, also a good place to look for $$$. we don't know how long you have lived lakeside, but this present administration has been the most rapacious.

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I allowed them to measure the house and they had to lower my predial as they figure was too high by 200 meters..so it goes both way. 

I agree you have to watch them like hawks . Forget refunding money for overpaying for years...

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GR article quotes government as wanting to verify 20 properties, we have evidence of that number being over 200, we requested documents through transparency on April 28th but they have yet to respond and are late in doing so and we will have to file a motion to force them to give the info.  Early in the year another department was targeting foreigners and their businesses to ask them for more papers which they had no authority to ask for.  The audit agency has said this is wrong, the government lied to the GR about the numbers and are thwarting efforts to verify their authority to ask for these papers, sure sounds like nothing is out of order, just another day in local government. 

    Registro de la solicitud Electrónica Ayuntamiento de Chapala 28/04/2017 20:17 28/04/2017 20:17
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