Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Recommended Posts

sonia that distance is like 1 1/2 miles. cant imagine what kind of torture that must have been, especially for those who live closer. just remember how many people were "choosing" to be there right in the middle of it & enjoyed every moment. that was my point of my last post. good work. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 hours ago, MtnMama said:

My I respectfully suggest that those of you who are bothered by noise move to gated communities such as Brisas or Chapala Haciendas or Rancho de Oro where it is much quieter? Don't expect to live in the village near large community event venues and have quiet. It makes as much sense as moving a mile or two from a major airport and expecting them to change the flight patterns as people did when I sold real estate in Denver's Park Hill.

A rudiculous suggestion!  I want to live where I live, right here in Chapala.  And not all of us have your financial resources. We can`t live in gated communites and would never want to.  We love our neighborhoods, where the people live.  You rich folks can live in your rich gated communities but the rest of us must make where we live livable. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Gated communities, more rural neighborhoods - whatever. Many are no more expensive than living in the village but are much more peaceful. I've lived in a village, and the joy that seems to come from loud is quite amazing. To me it makes more sense to live somewhere that already meets your wants than living somewhere and wanting to remake it.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

 

  • Like 6
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I guess we are fairly lucky. Living 10 years on the block as an eventos, maybe 3 times has music ever gone beyond 1 am.  Actually this is not a gated community but we occasionally get " the kids" here to party at dad's. Police called twice, music went down , then right up again until a neighbor pulled out the electric meter.  So at 4 am all was quite -_-

Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, MtnMama said:

Gated communities, more rural neighborhoods - whatever. Many are no more expensive than living in the village  To me it makes more sense to live somewhere that already meets your wants than living somewhere and wanting to remake it.

 

Yes indeed.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let me see if I have this correct.

A handful of people and businesses and concerts that are here to put money in the pockets of a local government that can't seem to deliver services despite endless tax increases, show up in recent years with loud amplification equipment and run it at all hours in the local communities and the interpretation is that this is somehow now the general Mexican culture and if you don't like it, move.

Have I got that right? :D

Let's try a similar hypothetical case.  A few cattle ranchers decide they can make more money by moving their herds into town, feeding them in the streets and leaving the crap lying there.  

Should the residents deal with the problem by moving?

If this is actually Mexican culture, could someone explain to me in a logical manner why the Mexicans are passing laws against it?

I'm just an ignorant gringo so keep the explanation simple. :)

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

7 hours ago, MtnMama said:

Gated communities, more rural neighborhoods - whatever. Many are no more expensive than living in the village but are much more peaceful. I've lived in a village, and the joy that seems to come from loud is quite amazing. To me it makes more sense to live somewhere that already meets your wants than living somewhere and wanting to remake it.

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change,
Courage to change the things I can,
And wisdom to know the difference.

 

I agree with the idea that it is better to live where your wants are met than to try to remake the place you are. However, I don't think there are many rentals in gated communities or rural neighborhoods under $500, but there are in Chapala.   The desire to having the noise laws enforced is not unreasonable. I have no stake in this matter since I live in a fairly quiet neighborhood, but I have empathy for those who don't.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would think that proponents of free market capitalism and deregulation of government oversight, i.e. The "nanny state" would embrace these independent entrepreneurs. Who knows, from the humble evento down the street , the next great corporate empire could sprout. 

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

free market is fine. if it interfers w/quality of life & boundaries its not. expats think what ever they happen to see & hear is "mexican culture". what niave ignorant fools. they cant wrap their heads around the idea that many mexicans dont like noise. my maid is not happy w/it, as she works almost 6 days per week. as for these "promo" events, most workers here resent them. they dont reflect mex culture, its a drunken disco. how many middle aged taxi drivers are there? none. its mostly kids from guad, & some local teens. club owners/promoters can be sleezy. give them an inch they take a mile. zerbit, last thing we need is another "corporate empire". one big spring break.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, zerbit said:

I would think that proponents of free market capitalism and deregulation of government oversight, i.e. The "nanny state" would embrace these independent entrepreneurs. Who knows, from the humble evento down the street , the next great corporate empire could sprout. 

By the same line of reasoning, one should embrace the drug cartels, the industries which spew pollution into the air and water and the elected "entrepreneurs" who walk off with your tax dollars and leave your trash piling up in the street.

That might be the viewpoint of the more extreme proponents of "free markets" which don't exist in reality anyway but I suspect most people understand government has an important role in protecting society in general from the greedy and sociopathic few for whom personal profit and gratification is the only priority.

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I ,for one, am happy about no longer living in the nanny state of Canada. Every system has it's flaws anyhow and so far the flaws here are not grating on me. Just one of the things I like are that some laws here are treated at all levels as mere suggestions and rightly so. I am also quite pleased with what this local government is accomplishing with the resources that they have. From a lot of what is written in this thread and other similar ones lately,I am a part of a minority of foreigners in this regard. It's interesting that no Mexicans contribute with any regularity on this board.I wonder why.

  • Like 5
Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

By the same line of reasoning, one should embrace the drug cartels, the industries which spew pollution into the air and water and the elected "entrepreneurs" who walk off with your tax dollars and leave your trash piling up in the street.

That might be the viewpoint of the more extreme proponents of "free markets" which don't exist in reality anyway but I suspect most people understand government has an important role in protecting society in general from the greedy and sociopathic few for whom personal profit and gratification is the only priority.

 

Lol. Won't get political here. But your comment is pretty amusing given the direction a certain government is taking. I'd think you'd embrace that new direction  in your southern home. 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

nedsmall: there was a mexican who contributed to the board. (jerry was my email friend). he was attacked because he didnt go along w/the expat narrative. people here did not know he was mexican @ first. he also lived in the US for many years & was a patriot & veteran. another mex lady who was my friend was called a troll. she was married to an expat & lived in marisol. she sold her house when her husband died & left for mex city. see? not all mexicans are of the singing dancing drinking sombrero serape tourist attractions you like. zerbit: as for complete deregulation? chaos is not a good thing. we are already living in a bananna republic. i dont want it to be worse like honduras.

Edited by betty7
correction
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

35 minutes ago, zerbit said:

Lol. Won't get political here. But your comment is pretty amusing given the direction a certain government is taking. I'd think you'd embrace that new direction  in your southern home. 

 

You are demonstrating the "all or none" logical fallacy while straying from the topic by comparing apples and oranges.  The noise pollution issue being discussed in this thread is ONLY about this country and more specifically about this locality within that country.

Quote

When it is suggested or implied that one must believe all or nothing of a particular set of beliefs.

I think we all know which government you refer to.  You might want to notice that said government has long since embraced environmental clean up and regulation the core of which no one is suggesting should be repealed.  By contrast here, government in our southern home seems much more likely to ignore the environmental laws it already has or to take bribes to ignore them.

You know, if I held the belief that government can do no wrong and the solution to all social ills is more government, the very last thing I would do would be to be an apologist for government that doesn't even carry out its core role.  That is simply validating the opposite extreme view that government should be done away with.

Instead, I'd be doing everything I could to support my Mexican and expat neighbors in motivating government to do its job better instead of just rolling over and perpetuating a false myth about the culture here.

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Coupla more things... AS we speak, the Plaza B exercise classes (very loud, fast, and annoying!) are being held on Sunday mornings!! Aggghhh!!!!  It has been very up and down with them.  It seemed that a while back they put in some sort of baffling material to mitigate this noise problem, but now that is gone and they are back to blasting, now on Sunday morning with some jerk up there with a microphone!  Shocked, I have gone up there a few times recently and had to yell at them because the noise was too loud to talk in a more polite tone of voice.  Their reaction was hostile towards me and the neighbors.  They know they are bothering people but they don't care!

Here is the Mexican Cultural thing I don't understand about this noise issue.  This culture is much more polite and gracious than the Northern culture we came from.  Mexicans will tell you pretty little white lies if they think it might keep from offending you somehow.  But when it comes to noise, that very polite consideration just goes right out the door and they get mad at you for complaining!  The only proper response to a noise complaint is to apologize and turn down!  But they don't understand "turning down".  They only understand "OFF" and "LOUD".  Hence the ongoing problem.

It all boils down to complete technological ignorance about how to use the equipment, and why.  Any volume control has settings between 1-10, roughly.  There is a whole gradation of volume levels they could choose from to arrive at the CORRECT level for the room or venue they are playing in. "Correct" would include consideration of the others nearby within earshot.  There is not one venue in this entire area that is sufficiently large to accommodate the very loud volume levels they play at.

Not one Mexican that I have talked to was aware of the Ley Federal, which evidently has never been publicized in the local media.  We expats found out about in the GR, TX to Dale Palfrey.  I have made copies of the law and circulated them to some neighbors, so they knew they had a legal leg to stand on.  They have been reluctant to complain because they don't think it will do any good and because some fear reprisal if they sign a petition with their names and addresses on it.  That is why neighbors need to present a united front on these issues.

The basic underlying problem is that Mexican architecture, very open air and constructed with bricks and concrete, is completely incompatible with amplified sound.  Every room in every structure in Mexico is automatically an echo chamber!  The traditional Mexican music is acoustic and is enhanced by this quality of the local architecture.

Sound technology was developed in the northern, cold climates where all the buildings are enclosed and highly insulated already, and adding more soundproofing is a small matter.  The Mexicans who like to copy aspects of the Northern culture, like rock music and exercise classes and large sound equipment do not realize the bigger picture here.  They need a lot of education on this matter to really resolve this noise problem.  The only other solution is to require complete soundproofing of all venues which feature amplified sound, and permits only for traditional fiestas outside.  No more commercial noise!!!  

Once upon a time, the only loud music was at fiesta time, and that was the designated time for everyone to go out and dance and drink and stay up late and have fun.  I have read that some Aztec cultures used to execute people for drinking between fiestas.

I've spoken directly with certain involved parties and they don't even realize the most basic fact of this matter which is that sound waves travel!  And thereby affect many more people than their little parties. The noise is generated mostly by young males trying to be macho and show off, according to Mexican amigas.

 Hopefully the MX government at local and state levels can add some specifics to the stipulations of the Ley Federal and include some instructional information in their permit process... and/or just stop issuing permits for loud commercial blowouts.  But, they like getting the permit $$$ and who knows what happens when the cash changes hands.

BTW, moving is not a solution to the problem unless you are living out of suitcases which leaves me and my Mexican neighbors out.

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

20 minutes ago, Mainecoons said:

 

You are demonstrating the "all or none" logical fallacy while straying from the topic by comparing apples and oranges.  The noise pollution issue being discussed in this thread is ONLY about this country and more specifically about this locality within that country.

I think we all know which government you refer to.  You might want to notice that said government has long since embraced environmental clean up and regulation the core of which no one is suggesting should be repealed.  By contrast here, government in our southern home seems much more likely to ignore the environmental laws it already has or to take bribes to ignore them.

You know, if I held the belief that government can do no wrong and the solution to all social ills is more government, the very last thing I would do would be to be an apologist for government that doesn't even carry out its core role.  That is simply validating the opposite extreme view that government should be done away with.

Instead, I'd be doing everything I could to support my Mexican and expat neighbors in motivating government to do its job better instead of just rolling over and perpetuating a false myth about the culture here.

 

Funny how small government supporters can become medium sized government supporters when the need arises. And that other country that shall remain unnamed is  looking to go backwards on the environmental protections in place. 

  • Like 4
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Very detailed commentary ezpz, thanks.

Zerbit, feel free to rejoin us in discussing the topic.  To the rest here, I apologize for taking the bait.

IMO a big part of what is going on here is that a segment of our resurgent Tapatio weekend crowd and local and out of town promoters that make money off of them have figured out they can get away here with activities that are being increasingly shut down by GDL area governments who are enforcing the Mexican noise laws.

Some of the locals see this and realize they can play too.

A little grease applied in the right places and we're off to the races.  I don't believe the perps are ignorant that they are causing problems around them, I believe they could care less.  As do the people taking their "fees."

I see this not as a technology problem or a lack of clear regulations designed to prevent it.  It is another local government problem like the trash piling up on our corners.

That's how it looks to me.  YMMV.

 

 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On ‎5‎/‎4‎/‎2017 at 8:59 PM, mexart said:

Who really profits? An out of town promoters takes control of the lives of large segments of the local population, tortures them for his profit. Why do we put up with that?

Somehow we have to push back against the forces that would turn all of Lakeside into some destination tourist zone with complete contempt for those who are residents here. Can something be done to regulate or need this torture!? Can we at least stop all activity at midnight!? Limit the number of continous days? Set limits on music volume.!? Lakeside is first and foremost residential, economically and culturally so let's respect the people who live here!

How long is the presidente term?  When a presidente takes money from whereever he can (including BIG money from promoters fees) and doesn`t care a whit about community response, I imagine the community must wait for the next election and apply huge pressure at that time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

ezpz, the mexican exercise people think they have to blast it. they tell them that in guad when they get "certified". (or they hear that this is the way to do things. gee i took classes here w/many certified teachers years ago but the blast was not in the training @ that time. also they played real dance music you could move too, not heavy metal). many stores in mex/us have the blast to attract people. there are reasons why they do this. (stanford U came up w/that technique. source: NYT's). the arobic people yelled @ you because you were interfering w/their business which means income. its your fault. you are always screaming @ these people & they are not interested in what you have to say. i think the mexicans are divided 50/50 about the noise. i was getting my haircut & the lady closed the window/ door. there was a loud bus outside. she said she suffers stress in her location. zerbit: i like small gove but im not an anarchist. theres one thing to keep it simple. another to be a "simpleton". there is plenty of noise here for you to enjoy. leave the rest of us alone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, betty7 said:

ezpz, the mexican exercise people think they have to blast it. they tell them that in guad when they get "certified". (or they hear that this is the way to do things. gee i took classes here w/many certified teachers years ago but the blast was not in the training @ that time. also they played real dance music you could move too, not heavy metal). many stores in mex/us have the blast to attract people. there are reasons why they do this. (stanford U came up w/that technique. source: NYT's). the arobic people yelled @ you because you were interfering w/their business which means income. its your fault. you are always screaming @ these people & they are not interested in what you have to say. i think the mexicans are divided 50/50 about the noise. i was getting my haircut & the lady closed the window/ door. there was a loud bus outside. she said she suffers stress in her location. zerbit: i like small gove but im not an anarchist. theres one thing to keep it simple. another to be a "simpleton". there is plenty of noise here for you to enjoy. leave the rest of us alone.

Bennie2 or Betty7 of what ever you are calling yourself this week, if you feel the need to pack other people's lunch on this forum fine. But your feeble little crowbarring of an insult into your comment is pathetic at best. Avoiding you like the plague, never mind leaving you alone is more my goal.

 

 

 

 

 

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is a reasonable Google translation of the sound law.  For newbies to this issue, I hope you can see that even in Mexico, it is legally and ethically wrong to create disturbing noise. Loud noise is inherently stressful and it is well known that stress is a factor in 80% of illnesses.  We have been dealing specifically with these issues for 7 years in Ajijic, this is nothing new.

Don't be smug if you live in the outlying or gated communities.  Given that sound waves travel and that the loud noise is an ever increasing trend here, anyplace could be subject to noise pollution with the new restaurant/bars and event places that pop up all over the place.  Also, the El Barco and Plaza Bugambila neighborhoods were quiet when I moved in!  But things change!   In other words, don't think this couldn't happen to you!  Restaurant #4 went out of business a few months ago and is sitting empty now.  Who knows who will move in there and what they will start up.  

I'm copying Sonia's link to the DB equivalency chart so you can get a concrete idea of what is a permissible volume level in businesses, if only they would strongly enforce these things!   Noise equivalency: http://www.noisehelp.com/noise-level-chart.html

AGREEMENT amending paragraph 5.4 of the Official Mexican Standard NOM-081-SEMARNAT-1994 is amended establishes the maximum permissible limits of noise emission from stationary sources and measurement method.

On the margin a seal with the National Coat of Arms, which states: United Mexican States. - Secretary of Environment and Natural Resources.

CUAUHTÉMOC OCHOA FERNÁNDEZ , Undersecretary of Environmental Development and Regulation, based on the provisions of articles 32 Bis of the Organic Law of the Federal Public Administration; 51, second paragraph, of the Federal Law on Metrology and Standardization; 5 o. Fr actions V and XV; 15, fractions III, XII and XVI, 36, section II and last paragraph, 37 TER and 155 of the General Law of Ecological Balance and Protection to the Environment; 8 fractions III and IV of the Internal Regulations of the Ministry of Medi or Environment and Natural Resources, and
CONSIDERING
That noise pollution is a major environmental problem with increasing presence in modern society, due to the development of industrial, commercial and service activities that are both fixed and mobile sources that generate different types of noise that, according to their intensity , Frequency and time of exposure, affect not only humans but also the living beings that make up the ecosystems in which the human population is immersed.
That Article 4 or. of the Constitution of the United Mexican States establishes the right of everyone to a healthy environment for their development and welfare constitutional mandate that involves the protection of all natural and artificial or human - induced elements that make possible the existence And development of human beings and other living organisms interacting in a given space and time.
That Article 155 of the General Law on Ecological Equilibrium and Environmental Protection prohibits noise emissions as soon as the maximum limits established in Mexican official regulations issued by the Ministry of the Environment and Natural Resources are exceeded, considering the values of Maximum concentration permissible for the human being of pollutants in the environment determined by the Ministry of Health.
That on January thirteenth, nineteen hundred and ninety-five, the Official Mexican Standard NOM-081-SEMARNAT-1994 , which establishes the maximum permissible emission limits of fixed sources and their Method of measurement , a normative theme whose modification was reiterated in the National Standardization Program published in the same official medium on April 29 , two thousand and thirteen.
That despite the existence of the normative regulation indicated in the previous paragraph, our country, at the international level, continues to be indicated as an example of nations in which the problems generated by acoustic pollution have increased. For example, the World Health Organization has estimated that at least 120 million people worldwide have hearing problems result from excessive noise to which they are subjected, especially in large cities.
For its part, the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has reported that thirteen million inhabitants of its member countries, including Mexico, are exposed to a sound level exceeding 65 decibels. In this regard, recently, in the year two thousand and twelve, the National Fonoteca carried out the measurement of sound levels in five different points of the Mexican capital, reporting that Mexico City exceeds the desirable upper limit recommended by the World Health Organization .
Whereas, in view of the precautionary principle, the lack of scientific certainty does not constitute an obstacle to the adoption of measures for the protection of the environment and human health; That is why demerite the process of modification of the existing regulation in the matter.
That Article 51 of the Federal Law on Metrology and Standardization establishes that when the causes that motivated the issuance of an official Mexican standard do not subsist , the corresponding National Advisory Committee on Standardization may modify the standard in question without following the procedure for their preparation, are intended unless creating new requirements or specifications or procedures more stringent.
That in the present case, although it is true that the causes that motivated the issuance of the official Mexican norm NOM-081-SEMARNAT-1994, which establishes the maximum permissible limits of
Noise emission from fixed sources and their method of measurement , it is also true that such causes have been largely overcome by the current reality of the harmful incidence of noise in humans, which has been described in previous paragraphs.
That from the analysis of the current regulation, it is deduced that the maximum permissible levels of the sound level in weight " A " , contained in Table 1 of the aforementioned official Mexican standard, mean that all sources of noise must comply with them Values, which is not an adequate criterion; Given that the various human activities that are developed within any facility can not be equated, so in the opinion of the Federal Commission for Protection against Sanitary Risks of the Ministry of Health and the Ministry of Environment and Natural Resources, it is appropriate to establish the levels of noise and zoning recommended by the World Health Organization.
That there are substantial differences between noise levels in a residential, industrial, commercial or service area, so that the determination of the maximum permissible noise levels for each of them does not create unnecessary obligations to those areas in which They develop less noisy activities , notwithstanding that said zoning represents greater benefits in the health of the people who are exposed to high levels of emission of noise.
That in this sense, the General Directorate of Industry, after technical assessment, submitted to me for consideration the present instrument, which is intended to specify the maximum permissible limits of the sound level " A " issued by fixed sources, Generating activity, the areas in which it can be produced and the timetables in which it can be generated; Modifications that do not create new requirements or procedures, but only specifies and identifies important technical aspects for the determination of acceptable levels of noise and, therefore, I have had to issue the following:
" AGREEMENT AMENDING PARAGRAPH 5.4 OF MEXICAN OFFICIAL STANDARD NOM - 081-SEMARNAT-1994, which establishes the maximum permissible limits EMISSION OF NOISE STATIONARY SOURCES AND METHOD OF MEASURING ION " 

 
SOLE ARTICLE . 5.4 of Mexican Official Standard NOM-081-SEMARNAT-1994, which establishes the maximum permissible emission limits of fixed sources and their method of measurement, is hereby amended to establish the following:
" 5.4 The maximum permissible limits of the sound level " A " weighting issued by fixed sources are those set forth in Table 1.
TABLE 1. PERMISSIBLE MAXIMUM LIMITS.
ZONE
SCHEDULE
MAXIMUM 
PERMISSIBLE LIMIT dB (A) 
Residential 1 (exterior)
6 a.m. to 10 p.m.
10:00 to 6:00 a.m.
55
fifty
Industrial and commercial
6 a.m. to 10 p.m.
10:00 to 6:00 a.m.
68
65
Schools (outdoor play areas )
During the game
55
Ceremonies, festivals and entertainment events.
4 hours
100
 
1 Understood by: single-family and multi-family housing; Housing housing with commerce in ground floor; Mixed housing; Housing housing with offices; Neighborhood centers and educational services areas.
TRANSIENT
UNIQUE . This Agreement shall enter into force on the day following its publication in the Official Gazette of the Federation.
Mexico , Federal District, on the seventh day of November, two thousand thirteen. - The Undersecretary of Environmental Development and Regulation , Cuauhtémoc Ochoa Fernández .- Heading.
btn_imprimir.gif
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

First off, those of you who find Ajijic too noisy -- don't ever move to Chiapas! Much noisier there, especially San Cristobal up in the mountains. Cohetes, bandas, parades, and my favorites, the late-night borrachos who commandeer the microphone at the party and send drunken karaoke warbling into the night air! It's like Seis Esquinas times two.

Speaking of the six corners area, we used to live just above that part of town. Our bedroom window served as a perfect sound reflector for the local church cohetes and marching bands, especially when they warmed up just on the other side of the carratera. On many of these occasions, even after we had officially gone to bed, the wife would open the door and step out onto the small balcony to get a better view or listen. Her fascination with Mexican culture is truly child-like. I have video of a fireworks display from Roberto's, about 200 feet from our rooftop. In the video you can hear her utter joy through her laughter.

We've done some house and pet-sitting in Vista del Lago and the Racquet Club. MUCH quieter, too quiet for us, in fact. Having said that, I would not rent (or buy) too close to an event facility or pig slaughterhouse, but fans (for white noise) and earplugs are essential in Mexico.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
 Share

×
×
  • Create New...