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Cost of living Lakeside vs. San Miguel de Allende


joanne

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Was researching on Numbeo the two cities' respective living costs. It stated rent prices were about 35% higher in SMA and eating out was very slightly

higher in Ajijic ,the city I had to use for comparison .( I know Chapala and Joco are cheaper for a lot of things.) A lot of the other things (food, utilities, etc. were pretty similar on the site.) Not too much data about medical and dentistry costs.

I hope those reading this post familiar with both cities will offer their opinions. I know there are cheaper places to live in Mexico but hard to beat

each other's weather IMO.

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Weather is milder and more even here thanks to the lake effect.  I doubt that eating out is cheaper there based on admittedly a limited sampling.  We also have the advantage here of fast access to a major airport and a major city for shopping, health care and cultural amenities.

Our experienced person here in comparing the two places is Gringal, I'm assuming she will weigh in.

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Gringal,

 If you read this post may we have your input, please?

I assume from Mainecoons' post that one living in SMA  still has to fly into/out of either Queretaro or Leon airport, both a lot farther from SMA than GDL airport is from Lake Chapala.

 

 

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We've lived in both places and find lots to love about each. That said, other than being the two most well-known expat havens the two places don't seem to me to have all that much in common. 

SMA is a city, with heavy traffic even on the small streets at all times and a real onslaught on weekends when tourists (not just from D.F. but from all over the country) descend. Lakeside is s series of villages, very mellow by comparison except of course for traffic on the carreterra. We did just fine without a car in SMA but we're reasonably fit and like to hike. Many streets are quite steep and the cobblestones and other obstacles are just as formidable as at Lakeside. 

Just as each village at Lakeside has its own character the same is true of the various colonias or neighborhoods in SMA. In both cases you want to rent for at least a year if not indefinitely and really get to know the areas. 

We were pleasantly surprised that rents, for what you get - and especially given that the valuations on housing in SMA start at about double Lakeside - were about on par with, and often less than, asking prices for gringo-oriented places here. Equally refreshing, asking prices are most often in pesos (as they should be everywhere). Utilities are about on par with Lakeside except that reliable high-speed internet is much more consistently available,  with the important exception that if you live year-round in SMA you absolutely need to allow for the cost of propane heating for several months each winter, as it gets seriously cold in SMA. Really looking at solar gain and heat sources in any prospective rental is vital. For a modest 2 BR place figure US$ 200-400 in additional costs for propane heat during the winter. 

As for food costs, you can get glorious produce at the weekly market for even less than you pay at Chapala's weekly tianguis and there's great street food, but there are also exponentially more tempting and costly high-end dining options than at Lakeside. Culturally and culinarily SMA is to Lakeside what San Francisco is to Omaha - with (relative) prices to match. Keep in mind that that also means it attracts, in general, a very well-heeled crowd  - and not just expats (I used to routinely see Mexicans from Mexico City buying several cases of $40-100 a bottle of wine at La Europea in SMA for a weekend party). If you're on a limited budget you'll likely find yourself saying "no" to lots of invitations to meals out and cultural events because of their price tags, and forming friendships with fellow expats who are in their SMA house for a month or two before flying off to their other houses in Barcelona or New York might prove a bit challenging. It's not all that kind of crowd in SMA, but those rattling the expensive jewelry are certainly very visible and predominant during high season. 

Another reflection of relative wealth is that English-speaking, gringo-oriented doctors and dentists charge prices that start at double the Lakeside average. On the other hand the Seguro Popular hospital in SMA is gorgeous and as far as I know entirely lacking in the anti-gringo shenanigans that many of us have experienced at IMSS in particular. 

SMA is not a place to live if you need to be on an airplane easily, frequently or affordably. Querétaro airport is tiny and expensive to fly out of and Leon is only slightly better, while all the really good fares are from D.F., 3+ hours away. Bus service, on the other hand, is great and you are smack-dab in the middle of México's colonial heartland, with a vast number of interesting places to visit within a few hours.

SMA is high and dry - think Santa Fe climate. If you live in Centro it will feel as busy as being in an American city of a million, and if you choose to live outside of centro you'll have traffic and expensive parking to deal with. Air pollution in centro may not be at Guadalajara levels, but it ain't Lakeside either. Lakeside feels much more like small-town Southern California (I spent a lot of my youth in Santa Monica and Venice and the weather and water-influenced climate are very similar). SMA is stimulating, exciting, architecturally gorgeous - and also potentially quite draining, at least at times. Lakeside is very slow-paced (many in SMA would say podunk) by comparison. There are wonderful expat communities in both places and I'd encourage any prospective expat to give them both a lengthy try, but a budget retiree is going to have a much easier time thriving - and many more folks in the same boat - at Lakeside. 

Hope this helps. 

 

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14 minutes ago, Kevin K said:

We've lived in both places and find lots to love about each. That said, other than being the two most well-known expat havens the two places don't seem to me to have all that much in common. 

SMA is a city, with heavy traffic even on the small streets at all times and a real onslaught on weekends when tourists (not just from D.F. but from all over the country) descend. Lakeside is s series of villages, very mellow by comparison except of course for traffic on the carreterra. We did just fine without a car in SMA but we're reasonably fit and like to hike. Many streets are quite steep and the cobblestones and other obstacles are just as formidable as at Lakeside. 

Just as each village at Lakeside has its own character the same is true of the various colonias or neighborhoods in SMA. In both cases you want to rent for at least a year if not indefinitely and really get to know the areas. 

We were pleasantly surprised that rents, for what you get - and especially given that the valuations on housing in SMA start at about double Lakeside - were about on par with, and often less than, asking prices for gringo-oriented places here. Equally refreshing, asking prices are most often in pesos (as they should be everywhere). Utilities are about on par with Lakeside except that reliable high-speed internet is much more consistently available,  with the important exception that if you live year-round in SMA you absolutely need to allow for the cost of propane heating for several months each winter, as it gets seriously cold in SMA. Really looking at solar gain and heat sources in any prospective rental is vital. For a modest 2 BR place figure US$ 200-400 in additional costs for propane heat during the winter. 

As for food costs, you can get glorious produce at the weekly market for even less than you pay at Chapala's weekly tianguis and there's great street food, but there are also exponentially more tempting and costly high-end dining options than at Lakeside. Culturally and culinarily SMA is to Lakeside what San Francisco is to Omaha - with (relative) prices to match. Keep in mind that that also means it attracts, in general, a very well-heeled crowd  - and not just expats (I used to routinely see Mexicans from Mexico City buying several cases of $40-100 a bottle of wine at La Europea in SMA for a weekend party). If you're on a limited budget you'll likely find yourself saying "no" to lots of invitations to meals out and cultural events because of their price tags, and forming friendships with fellow expats who are in their SMA house for a month or two before flying off to their other houses in Barcelona or New York might prove a bit challenging. It's not all that kind of crowd in SMA, but those rattling the expensive jewelry are certainly very visible and predominant during high season. 

Another reflection of relative wealth is that English-speaking, gringo-oriented doctors and dentists charge prices that start at double the Lakeside average. On the other hand the Seguro Popular hospital in SMA is gorgeous and as far as I know entirely lacking in the anti-gringo shenanigans that many of us have experienced at IMSS in particular. 

SMA is not a place to live if you need to be on an airplane easily, frequently or affordably. Querétaro airport is tiny and expensive to fly out of and Leon is only slightly better, while all the really good fares are from D.F., 3+ hours away. Bus service, on the other hand, is great and you are smack-dab in the middle of México's colonial heartland, with a vast number of interesting places to visit within a few hours.

SMA is high and dry - think Santa Fe climate. If you live in Centro it will feel as busy as being in an American city of a million, and if you choose to live outside of centro you'll have traffic and expensive parking to deal with. Air pollution in centro may not be at Guadalajara levels, but it ain't Lakeside either. Lakeside feels much more like small-town Southern California (I spent a lot of my youth in Santa Monica and Venice and the weather and water-influenced climate are very similar). SMA is stimulating, exciting, architecturally gorgeous - and also potentially quite draining, at least at times. Lakeside is very slow-paced (many in SMA would say podunk) by comparison. There are wonderful expat communities in both places and I'd encourage any prospective expat to give them both a lengthy try, but a budget retiree is going to have a much easier time thriving - and many more folks in the same boat - at Lakeside. 

Hope this helps. 

 

AS another that has lived in both places EXCELLENT Comparison, Kevin K !!! We still enjoy a 3-4 day visit to SMA about every 6-8 weeks.

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Kevin's post covered much of what one "needs to know" about San Miguel de Allende.  My spouse and I moved there in 2004 and moved to Ajijic in 2008.

We bought a new house from the contractor in SMA in the San Rafael barrio: up on the hillside with a wonderful view of everything. There were very, very few expats in our neighborhood, so our transition from northern CA was .....um......abrupt, but interesting and quite pleasant.  Our Mexican neighbors put up with our Spanglish and were especially friendly after my tall husband made a habit of helping the short older ladies toss their garbage up onto the weekly truck.  Here's my take on San Miguel living from a strictly personal point of view; some of it fact and some just opinion.  All things considered, I'm very glad we moved there first or we might be wondering what we missed.:huh:

WEATHER:  It's COLDER in the winter.  Golf ball sized hail is not uncommon.  Every bit of warm clothing we brought from the S.F. Bay area was needed in the winter.  In the evenings, we were huddled in the living room in those mummy bag things and had a blanket blocking the stairway.  There was a gas fireplace, but what we needed was an old fashioned roaring wood fire.  Summer: very hot in some months.  Think May here.  Air: it's in a natural "bowl", so the downtown collects fumes from the very busy traffic.  Not bad up on our hillside.  A higher elevation than here.

COST OF LIVING:  That depends on your personal spending habits.  The upscale restaurants were more pricey, but there were enough modestly priced ones to satisfy our dining out desires.  As Kevin said, a great open air market for fresh food and several supermarkets.

HOUSING:  Again, Kevin covered this re rentals.  Real estate purchases:  A vast difference between the much desired centro area as compared to the outer barrios. We could not have begun to afford a house like the one we own in central Ajijic.

PEOPLE:  As in any place we have lived, they come in all types.  Strictly personal observation:  More expats trying to "find themselves" as wannabe authors, artists, etc. and more just plain old snobs.  We found friends of like mind and avoided the aforementioned. ;)

CULTURE:  SMA has more and better quality visiting musical, dance troupes and other performers.  Much more elaborate public festivals with great costumes on display. Photographers' heaven.

WHY WE SOLD OUT AND MOVED TO LAKESIDE:   Health reasons, primarily mine.  I can "just" handle this altitude; SMA was a bit too much of a challenge.  Plus, we fell in love with having a real lake, the malecon and the green or gold hills embracing us.

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39 minutes ago, Hud said:

AS another that has lived in both places EXCELLENT Comparison, Kevin K !!! We still enjoy a 3-4 day visit to SMA about every 6-8 weeks.

Thanks Kevin K and Gringal for your replies. Very informative. I was in SMA for about 2 weeks in 2009. MUCH different than Lakeside. Narrow sidewalks with lots of traffic in the centro area. Some really elegant shops in the centro area. It looks like your budget would have to be 1 1/2 to twice the average budget at Lakeside for a similar quality of life. Bugget dining options were a bit scarcer in SMA in my opinion.

Also, SMA is over 7,000 ft. like Santa Fe as Kevin K mentioned. I had bizarre dreams virtually every night we were there( I assume from the altitude.) I believe the climate in SMA is similar to Santa Fe's climate- low humidity, pretty hot summers and some really cold nights in winter.

I think Hud here has the right idea. Take the 1st class bus from Guad (or drive), have a nice visit and come back to your  home at Lakeside.

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Kevin and Gringal nailed it.

I wasn't going to reply to this post because things have changed since we lived in San Miguel...from May 1st of '96 to October of 2004. We did go back for a visit about three years ago and were dismayed at the changes. You could shoot off a cannon in the Jardin where every day used to be a vibrant mass of people...all the streets around the Jardin have been made strictly pedestrian which is difficult for those with limited mobility.

Let me say for the record that I flew into Guadalajara for a fact finding mission in January of '96 and stayed at the Danza del Sol. I was not impressed with either Ajijic or Chapala and thought I would roll over and die of boredom. That's why I chose San Miguel. It was a happening place back then with more things to do and classes to attend than I had days in the week.

Having now lived in this area for five years, I wouldn't dream of going back to San Miguel to live nor to San Pancho in Nayarit where we also lived for six years.

Things change, places change and people change....... no matter what anyone else's opinion is, you must experience things for yourself and decide what's right for you.

 

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27 minutes ago, Ferret said:

 

Things change, places change and people change....... no matter what anyone else's opinion is, you must experience things for yourself and decide what's right for you.

 

THAT, is the bottom line ! :)

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As pretty much said by Kevin and Hud it depends as well on your comfort level or things in common with your fellow expats.   I find SMA what I call classy; but, one mans classy is another man's snobby.   For example the guys I met there tended to dress a little more upscale while here short pants and wife beater shorts are more the norm.   An observation, not a judgement. Women dressed well in both places.  Intellectual comfort with the arts more prevelant there, but we have Guadalajara close by which trumps SMA in all things if that is a criteria.  So yeah, try them out to see which is a better fit for your lifestyle and your pocketbook.

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Fine discussion of a justly popular topic.  Lived in SMA in the early '80s and have visited a few times since and would point out that the authentically colonial architecture and of course the Parroquia have attracted international-class design industries and practitioners.  If I could have afforded it thirty years ago, I would have bought a place with a Centro view, as so many have.  That's why there are so many reasonable rentals - everybody wants a piece of a this world-class setting, just to own.  At its' best, SMA is cultural, down to it's architectural foundations.  As for snobbery, on my last visit I stayed with a fine family who have had real impact on the arts and real estate over three decades and they are <ahem> Texans.   On my one trip Lakeside last spring, I bought a small view lot up the hill in San Juan Cosala, remembering perhaps my lost opportunity in SMA, and maybe because it reminded me of growing up in hills north of Berkeley, looking west across the bay to Mt. Tam. For me, a view and the weather are key.  

As many have suggested, and as so many relocation experts agree, rent first in as many situations as convenient.  That's what I'll do before I build anything Lakeside.

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For people considering moving to Mexico, auto insurance is another expense

where the cost differential between Mexico/NOB constitutes significant savings. We just renewed

our policy with Qualitas, full coverage for a Mexican plated vehicle with value $250,000 pesos, including roadside assistance,

legal, 5% deductible on collision, 10% deductible total theft and an upgrade to $750,000 pesos medical for occupants.

I year cost is $6184 pesos ($329.00 US)

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Considering the proximity to a major airport and a major city with amenities, the awesome climate and the open space and lower cost of living, I'm surprised lakeside doesn't get more expats. 

Maybe we lack good marketing. 

If they brought high speed internet I can see young tech people moving here if it's marketed to the world better. 

 

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13 minutes ago, Crazydog said:

Considering the proximity to a major airport and a major city with amenities, the awesome climate and the open space and lower cost of living, I'm surprised lakeside doesn't get more expats. 

Maybe we lack good marketing. 

If they brought high speed internet I can see young tech people moving here if it's marketed to the world better. 

 

This might not be a desirable outcome when you consider the amount of traffic on our main drag during this, the "low" season.  We don't have the infrastructure to support a large influx of people at this point.  They'll trickle in without advertising.

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6 hours ago, gringal said:

This might not be a desirable outcome when you consider the amount of traffic on our main drag during this, the "low" season.  We don't have the infrastructure to support a large influx of people at this point.  They'll trickle in without advertising.

I don't think not having a wide enough main road is what keeps people from wanting to come here nor do I think it's the reason it's poorly advertised.  If there is demand for this place and new influx of people the roads and infrastructure will get sorted bit by bit by the government and private investors. 

More new people make the local economy less stagnant. Maybe those homes that have been sitting on the market for years will finally find buyers. They create new jobs for the locals as well.

Look at places like Playa del Carmen, they probably were smaller than the towns around here and look how much they got transformed. 

We probably are going to lose the "village vibe" if lakeside grows but there are good and bad things that come with that. 

In my opinion this place is still a hidden spot which provides an affordable cost of living but it would be nice to see the local economy improve as well and have a bit more life. I doubt it will ever become like Playa or Puerto Vallarta but somewhere in between would be good. 

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6 hours ago, Crazydog said:

In my opinion this place is still a hidden spot which provides an affordable cost of living but it would be nice to see the local economy improve as well and have a bit more life. I doubt it will ever become like Playa or Puerto Vallarta but somewhere in between would be good. 

Are you sure this is the place you want to live?  Do you really think most current residents desire a "transformation" into something more like Puerto Vallarta? 

 

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6 hours ago, Crazydog said:

If there is demand for this place and new influx of people the roads and infrastructure will get sorted bit by bit by the government and private investors. 

Crazydog, do you actually live at Lakeside?  What you've said really bears no relationship to the reality of either government or private investors.  In addition, the Lake Chapala area is in no way hidden; it's one of the most popular areas in Mexico for foreign retirees, and has also begun to be popular with younger people as well.  

Ajijic is more than 450 years old.  The Spanish found it without so much as a map.  Then came 50 varieties of books about the area.  Now, Lakeside and its delights are all over the internet.  In some ways, the north shore is already overly popular and over populated.  In other ways, it's still a village.  Whatever the future holds for Lakeside, it will evolve naturally. There's no point in pushing it.

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Oh, sure. That imagined new highway through Chapala and Ajijic to Jocotopec will eliminate most of downtown Chapala and at least half of everything along the carretera right through Ajijic with its four lanes, median, laterals and ciclopista; maybe even more than half of everything.  Once done, nobody will want to live on the north shore of Lake Chapala. It is already full now. Its geography and topography is its reality and, fortunately, the limiting factor.

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I don't notice a lot more expats here.  What is very noticeable is a lot more Tapatios living here.  It seems that despite the bad roads we have become a suburb of GDL.  That has its good side and bad side like everything else.

What new highway RV?  They can't even manage to patch the potholes on the existing one and you seriously think they are going to build a real road here?

I'll assume you are jesting.

My observation is the expat community isn't growing nearly as fast as the Tapatio one here.

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The great thing about Lakeside is that there is a lot of place to expand outside of the greater Chapala-Joco area. If this area gets over crowded for one's likes... move further out.... EZPZ.

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15 hours ago, Crazydog said:

If they brought high speed internet I can see young tech people moving here if it's marketed to the world better.

I agree with you so much on this point. Low cost housing (compared to urban areas NOB), great weather, great outdoor opportunities to stretch the muscles from too much computer time. This could become a real happening place for techno peasants.

All Chapala government would have to do is ask the Federal government to feed a high speed link from Telmex Chapala/Ajiic to the super high speed line which runs along the Federal Highway to CDMX and Guadalajara. Tel Mex would get all the benefit, without spending money, but the potential rewards are just too great. Maybe there maybe even a lower cost way - I don't know. I all ready posted how they should build, and advertise Pokemon Go waystations

I am very impressed with the new roads in Mexico. They are using high quality concrete and lots of engineered steel reinforcements

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59 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

I am very impressed with the new roads in Mexico. They are using high quality concrete and lots of engineered steel reinforcements

Time will tell on that. I drive a lot of miles here, lately many trips to all northern border crossing. While I do see some new re-construction it appears to mostly be just resurfacing with no attempt to re-engineer the base, which IMO is where the problem lies. Maybe new construction will improve... be interesting to see how the new bypass up around Guadalajara will 'ride' in 5 years.

 

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The differences I see is that San Miguel de Allende is a real bonafide colonial city, rich, compact, high altitude, dry, dusty , brown and yellow.  It is full of Mexican historical and colonial charm.  A wonderful place to visit, like say Rome would be in a minuture kind of version.  El Lago de Chapala area is sort of hickville, poor fisherman village lifestyle, but of course with lots of beautiful villas over looking the lake, a spread out kind of rural area, green and luscious with many homes having medium to large green tropical gardens.  If you water it, it will grow like crazy here in Chapala.  We are like a medium class to poor fisherman village area, over looking the bay of Naples with all the amenities and a Walmart and Superlake (a grocerystore full of US and Canadian imports) to boot.  We are around  15 to 20 thousand expats strong, spread out along the North shore of beautiful Lake Chapala with a constant spring like climate (in the shade!) year round.  Our summers are in the mid 70's cool and wet, with a slight chill in the air at times.  Our winters drop down in the 60's, mostly dry and slightly wet occasionally.  Year long it is like that, except for May and the first half of June ( before the rains kick in) it can get up into the upper 80's and lower 90's with very low humidity, to us locals it feels very hot and exhausting but short lived.  That is our hot and perhaps uncomfortable season when you will want to run the ceiling fans.  It is recommended to check out both areas and spend at least a month in both.  Lake Chapala, take into consideration, is a long, narrow strip of an area, nestled between the mountains and the lake with many towns and life styles, some bearing on the verge of being extremely gringo excentric and 10 minutes down the road are nice towns with very few gringos.  But everything is close here, includind the intl airport and the historical metroplitan city of Guadalajara known as the pearl of the West!

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