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20 minutes ago, Bisbee Gal said:

Can anyone put the $10,000 USD annual premium into perspective against actual costs (in pesos) for recent 'big' surgeries you have experienced here and paid for out of pocket, without any insurance coverage?  I've googled estimates for this, and mostly I get "medical tourism" sites that give very broad estimates for surgeries (many of them cosmetic surgeries, or bariatric or other elective surgeries) in Mexico, but nothing specific to Guadalajara.  

Also...Gringal, was the $10K annual premium per 70+ year old person, or per couple??

Specifically:  That was $10,000 U.S dollars per year with $5,000 U.S. dollar deductable for one person.  Under 70, it was $155 per month, per person.  May I suggest you check this out in the large brown ad in last week's reporter to get all the details of the coverage.  However, the rates for the 70 plus group required that you email them, which I did.

Personally, my situation is:  My husband and I dropped Medicare Part B upon moving to Mexico over a dozen years ago.  Calculating the number of months since then times the premium for Part B only, we have a very substantial "medical savings account" which would cover most surgeries short of a heart tranplant and leave money left over.  We also pursue a healthy lifestyle and are not on any permanent drugs.  We signed up for IMSS "just in case" but would prefer not to be in an IMSS hospital, which is why I inquired about the Protex plan.  For those who are in a position to pay those rates, it's their choice. I hope that most medical issues which require hospitalization can be taken care of in some of the less costly but frill free smaller hospitals in the area. Some would call ours a "cross your fingers" medical plan.

I chuckle a bit to think of how the "Elevator" would enjoy being hospitalized in one of the best SP places in this area. That suitcase had better include toilet paper.:D

 

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I disagree with Gringal about the state of SP hospitals, at least in Jocotepec and Guadalara. This based on reports about Jocotepec and Guadalajara. Jocotepec is not a full hospital, by the way. How do I know this? My General Doctor is an Internal Medicine specialist, who consults at Guadalajara at various hospitals. She is also an ER doctor at the largest SP hospital in Guadalajara. I have asked her many times about SP hospitals and coverage, and I'll share this with because it is important, and I don't think she would mind. One problem is that SP will cover one thing, but exclude another treatment - it is very hard for even the Doctores to tell what they cover. The second problem is that they are often out of prescriptions. I asked her if I ended up in her hospital would it be a conflict that I was also a private patient, she told me not at all, they had the equipment and specialists available. She said though it doesn't work this way for non-emergency. You have to go to the Jocotepec facility by private ambulance (make sure you have enough cash to pay them) and then they stabilise you and if you need specialist attention or deep surgery, then they have a central dispatch which will try to find you a bed. If I need to pay for a medical translator/assistant in an SP hospital, I am confident my GP will find a very good one, possibly even a medical student. If I am recommended for a test or procedure not covered by SP, I  would gladly pay out of pocket, knowing I am getting the Mexican price, not the Gringo price.

Pay for your own prescriptions, pay for private ambulance, pay to see a good doctor every couple months, who for me, I would elevate to a gifted healer and well worth 650 pesos. I have to get going on my own advice here :unsure:, make up a little backpack with all your medical info, some pesos in small bills. Don't bring a phone, unless it is a "burner", no jewels, no touch tablets, a weeks worth of medications you are on, also some rolls of 2 ply Costco toilet paper that gringos are addicted to. Now focus on getting out of that dam hospital and back to the peaceful, and healing oasis which is Lakeside. Everyone hates hospitals, and if a Doctor says "this may sting a little bit" - they are lying!

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IMO it is good to sign up for all the medical coverage you can get, UNLESS you have at least 500,000 USD on hand and preferably much more. Me, I sign up for all the medical coverage I can get--that includes full coverage in Arizona (but I have to get there) and here, catastrophic coverage (it's all I can qualify for) AND IMSS, which I have had for almost 10 years--never have used it, except for checking in with a doctor so that I have a file--but one never knows, do one???? Life is unpredictable, and medical care is getting more expensive by the day.

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19 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

I disagree with Gringal about the state of SP hospitals, at least in Jocotepec and Guadalara. This based on reports about Jocotepec and Guadalajara. Jocotepec is not a full hospital, by the way. How do I know this? My General Doctor is an Internal Medicine specialist, who consults at Guadalajara at various hospitals. She is also an ER doctor at the largest SP hospital in Guadalajara. I have asked her many times about SP hospitals and coverage, and I'll share this with because it is important, and I don't think she would mind. One problem is that SP will cover one thing, but exclude another treatment - it is very hard for even the Doctores to tell what they cover. The second problem is that they are often out of prescriptions. I asked her if I ended up in her hospital would it be a conflict that I was also a private patient, she told me not at all, they had the equipment and specialists available. She said though it doesn't work this way for non-emergency. You have to go to the Jocotepec facility by private ambulance (make sure you have enough cash to pay them) and then they stabilise you and if you need specialist attention or deep surgery, then they have a central dispatch which will try to find you a bed. If I need to pay for a medical translator/assistant in an SP hospital, I am confident my GP will find a very good one, possibly even a medical student. If I am recommended for a test or procedure not covered by SP, I  would gladly pay out of pocket, knowing I am getting the Mexican price, not the Gringo price.

Pay for your own prescriptions, pay for private ambulance, pay to see a good doctor every couple months, who for me, I would elevate to a gifted healer and well worth 650 pesos. I have to get going on my own advice here :unsure:, make up a little backpack with all your medical info, some pesos in small bills. Don't bring a phone, unless it is a "burner", no jewels, no touch tablets, a weeks worth of medications you are on, also some rolls of 2 ply Costco toilet paper that gringos are addicted to. Now focus on getting out of that dam hospital and back to the peaceful, and healing oasis which is Lakeside. Everyone hates hospitals, and if a Doctor says "this may sting a little bit" - they are lying!

Sounds to me like we actually don't disagree about SP hospitals.  They are a great asset if that's all the coverage a person has, and why the toilet paper dig was made isn't clear, but you need to have your basic supplies, including your pillow, some kind of toilet paper, your usual meds and a friend or hired person (of the same sex) to stay with you and take care of your basic needs, as in becoming instant nurse, bedpans and all. Do not expect any serious pain relief medication. You are expected to "offer it up" and suffer.  If I'm in error, please correct me. However, they will probably fix whatever is wrong with you or send you where they can.  I got all this from people who have been there.  Yes, it's any port in a storm, especially for the poor.

IMO, the gringos taking advantage of this freebie meant for the poorest folks deserve the karma they'll get if they use that system. I consider SP as well as IMSS to be an enlightened move on the part of the Mexican government.  No one needs to die because they can't get care.  Other countries could take a lesson from that.

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Very well spoken Gringal. But lets get rid of this notion that SP is for the poor, they have dumped a ton of pesos into this system, and the primary focus is on FAMILY HEALTH. Can you imagine what it must cost to bring up a pack of kids in this country? This may be well out of date, and probably incorrect, but I read that in the U.S. it takes $100,000 in medical, dental, and school costs to raise a child from birth to adulthood. You people who have raised Northern families should ask for the money back - like a student loan!

If anybody wants to be snarky about "using" SP they are more likely to accuse of taking treatment away from babies and little kids. It doesn't work that way in TRIAGE systems. Guess who is last in line and hospital beds in Triage? These overworked and dedicated doctors will get to you - eventually. Painkillers, especially opoids, must be difficult to deal with. The final Triage stage is palliative care, near death and high dose painkillers. I think Mexican doctors have a justified fear of painkillers, and what they can destroy.

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47 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

Very well spoken Gringal. But lets get rid of this notion that SP is for the poor, they have dumped a ton of pesos into this system, and the primary focus is on FAMILY HEALTH. Can you imagine what it must cost to bring up a pack of kids in this country? This may be well out of date, and probably incorrect, but I read that in the U.S. it takes $100,000 in medical, dental, and school costs to raise a child from birth to adulthood.

If anybody wants to be snarky about "using" SP they are more likely to accuse of taking treatment away from babies and little kids. It doesn't work that way in TRIAGE systems. Guess who is last in line and hospital beds in Triage?

The source of a ton of pesos dumped into the system is not the poor, so let's not confuse the issue.  I believe it's the government, which is the taxpayers.

It takes a lot of money to raise children anywhere, and one could question the wisdom of having a large family with little income, but that's not the issue.  This is a government supported program intended to help families.  I know enough about the medical world to be aware who is first to be treated in a triage system:  It's not the richest one; it's the sickest.  What is your point of disagreement here? 

Those gringos who sign up with SP are often people wanting to get something for nothing so that they can enjoy an even better lifestyle, and the Mexican government is tolerant enough to apply a very generously interpreted "means test"  with no verification of claims, so most get in the system. It's alsp true that there are some expats whose means ares such that SP is all they can afford.  They don't have two cars, country club memberships and 5 dogs, either.  We're not talking about them.

The IMSS system, on the other hand, charges a yearly fee to all, based on age, with no means test.   Both systems are under financial strain at present.

This issue, as I see it, is a matter of simple ethics, not of what one can legally do. A person can get a free meal at many soup kitchens in the states.  But is it "right" for someone who can afford to pay for his or her own meal to line up for a free soup kitchen meal, or not?   

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That's a little too black and white I'm afraid. What if I have no problem telling the truth on the means test, what if I volunteer in the soup kitchen, what if I donate works art or sculptures that make sick people smile, what if I help fundraising for special medical equipment? What if I bring small gifts of Doctor approved treats and tell the most lonely they are teaching me Spanish in return?

I know too well that many skinflints moved here for sole reason of hanging on to their golden riches, we have to rise above them. The people who come here on a tight budget are most welcome, but they should be prepared to help tend the garden.

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2 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

That's a little too black and white I'm afraid. What if I have no problem telling the truth on the means test, what if I volunteer in the soup kitchen, what if I donate works art or sculptures that make sick people smile, what if I help fundraising for special medical equipment? What if I bring small gifts of Doctor approved treats and tell the most lonely they are teaching me Spanish in return?

I know too well that many skinflints moved here for sole reason of hanging on to their golden riches, we have to rise above them. The people who come here on a tight budget are most welcome, but they should be prepared to help tend the garden.

In perspective, I believe it is close to black and white. 

Volunteering in this community is a totally separate issue from taking advantage of a program intended for those poorer than yourself.

I volunteer heavily in supporting a program here because I believe in the benefit given and it gives me the satifaction of knowing it makes a difference.  Most people volunteer in their various ways for the same reason. It has nothing whatsover to do with the SP issue.

Otherwise, I am with you that we should rise above "skinflintism" and help tend the garden.

 

 

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18 hours ago, gringal said:

In perspective, I believe it is close to black and white. 

Volunteering in this community is a totally separate issue from taking advantage of a program intended for those poorer than yourself.

I volunteer heavily in supporting a program here because I believe in the benefit given and it gives me the satifaction of knowing it makes a difference.  Most people volunteer in their various ways for the same reason. It has nothing whatsover to do with the SP issue.

Otherwise, I am with you that we should rise above "skinflintism" and help tend the garden.

 

 

Seguro Popular is not a "program" for the poor. It started that out way about 20 years ago and now is the second main socialized medicine system in Mexico with 58,000,000 members and is paid for by tax dollars. You and everyone else in Mexico everytime you buy something pay 16% IVA tax.

You keep saying it is for the poor but you really don´t know anythig about the socialized medicine systems in Mexico or it´s story [comments like yours are rumors only or very outdated information]. If you pay taxes of any kind and are a resident or citizen you can join [legal right]. Taking advantage of it or taking it away from the poor is not correct and insulting to many citizens and residents because it has expanded to include and service the 58 million or is trying to.

 Please get your facts straight before comdemning others who know what they are doing here and understand Mexico´s socialized medicine systems well enough to join where they can or where they like just  like all/most Mexicans do.

If you are paying high premium high co-payment private health insurance go for it. No medical treatment is that complicated anymore that socialized medicine can´t sucessfully treat 99% of them. This has been proven correct in dozens of countries Worlwide. IMO

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34 minutes ago, AlanMexicali said:

Seguro Popular is not a "program" for the poor. It started that out way about 20 years ago and now is the second main socialized medicine system in Mexico with 58,000,000 members and is paid for by tax dollars. You and everyone else in Mexico everytime you buy soemthing pay 16% IVA. You keep saying it is for the poor but you really don´t know anythig about the socialized medicine systems in Mexico or it´s story [comments like yours are rumors only or vey outdated information]. If you pay taxes of any kind and are a resident or citizen you can join [legal right]. Taking advantage of it or it away from the poor is not correct and insulting to many citizens and residence because it has expanded to include and service the 58 million or is trying too. Get your facts straight before comdemning others who know what they are doing here and understand Mexico´s socialized medice systems well enough to join where they can or where the like just  like all Mexicans do.

My facts are straight.  I know it is tax supported and available to all.  No one has suggested it's "taking away from the poor". However, for every person who uses the system, there is less money available to make improvements, buy first class equipment for the facilities or better serve the Mexican population.  This is not a rumor or a product of outdated information.  It is not illegal for expats to use it, and I have not suggested that it is.  I do maintain my original opinion about well off expats who sign on to it, and it is up to the Mexicans who are aware of such things to decide if I am insulting them by saying so.

 If you have been reading the threads on here, you are aware that there are doctors at IMSS who have a bad attitude towards expats who sign up for that system.

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12 hours ago, gringal said:

My facts are straight.  I know it is tax supported and available to all.  No one has suggested it's "taking away from the poor". However, for every person who uses the system, there is less money available to make improvements, buy first class equipment for the facilities or better serve the Mexican population.  This is not a rumor or a product of outdated information.  It is not illegal for expats to use it, and I have not suggested that it is.  I do maintain my original opinion about well off expats who sign on to it, and it is up to the Mexicans who are aware of such things to decide if I am insulting them by saying so.

 If you have been reading the threads on here, you are aware that there are doctors at IMSS who have a bad attitude towards expats who sign up for that system.

The more members the more the budget increases and more expansion. Limiting enrollment actually limits the budgets allotted to the Seguro Popular and the IMSS. Basic economics. Most Mexicans do not prejudice against the ederly. They generally do not prejudice against people who join their socialized medicine systems as they were raised and schooled in a social democracy and understand it better than most Ameiricans. Most are proud of it and not ashamed of it.

 

The Doctors and administrators at your local IMSS should be reported to the federal administration office in Chapala for being prejudice against legal residents of Mexico by stating they are not happy with the law and rules of the system where they work and are obligated to follow the law and rules of the federal government when they signed on to service their enrolled members without prejudice.

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4 hours ago, AlanMexicali said:

The more members the more the budget increases and more expansion. Limiting enrollment actually limits the budgets allotted to the Seguro Popular and the IMSS. Basic economics. Most Mexicans do not prejudice against the ederly. They generally do not prejudice against people who join their socialized medicine systems as they were raised and schooled in a social democracy and understand it better than most Ameiricans. Most are proud of it and not ashamed of it.

 

The Doctors and administrators at your local IMSS should be reported to the federal administration office in Chapala for being prejudice against legal residents of Mexico by stating they are not happy with the law and rules of the system where they work and are obligated to follow the law and rules of the federal government when they signed on to service their enrolled members without prejudice.

On another thread, several posters reported receiving a bad attitude at IMSS from certain doctors. They are reluctant to complain, but of course it would be a service to the rest of us if they did.    Mexicans should be proud of the fact that their government practices social democracy in the medical area.  People do not choose to get sick. The U.S is far behind in that area, but many would vociferously disagree with me and many Congressmen would be happy to disembowel the A.C.A. or any other "socialized medicine" plan and leave the sick to fend for themselves, but that's a topic of discussion not suitable for this forum.

One caveat about IMSS and S.P. I think is worth mentioning:  Before relying on either of these for hospitalization, it would be wise for people to visit the facilities and decide whether they would be willing to use them. They are very basic, without the comforts people are used to having in private U.S. hospitals.  (Think Public General Hospitals in the U.S. for some comparison.) However, they do the job: several posters on here have used them and reported satisfactory results.

If they decide that's fine, then they can feel comfortable taking advantage of the low cost.  If not, there are plenty of fine, well appointed hospitals in Guadalajara where private insurance will fill the bill, complete with private rooms and all the extras.

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Yesterday we were at the doctor was was talking to a patient who was looking for a cheap hospital to have a surgery done and the doctor recommended several clinics that were inexpensive, so ther eis  a lot of choices in this area and the doctors can help yo find something you can afford that is decent without having to go to SP if you do not want to go there.

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32 minutes ago, bmh said:

Yesterday we were at the doctor was was talking to a patient who was looking for a cheap hospital to have a surgery done and the doctor recommended several clinics that were inexpensive, so ther eis  a lot of choices in this area and the doctors can help yo find something you can afford that is decent without having to go to SP if you do not want to go there.

That is true.  My doctor said he would help me in working through the IMSS process if I ever needed it, but would also help us find one of the smaller and more affordable hospitals if I preferred that.

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Alan - an important point, if a person did not belong (which is insane not to if your are permanente) to Seguro Popular, can one pay as a private hospital?

Growing up in Canada, involved with the public health system, started by a firebrand socialist called Tommy Douglas (a Canadian hero by the way). This topic of public health, always becomes politicized. Seguro Popular was Presidente Vincent Fox's baby. The core belief, as I see it, was to prevent the medical bankruptcies that are still a plague in the U.S.A., and the solutions there are highly politicized. Want to lose you home because your 5 year old has leukemia?

Team Chillin paid over $4,500 U.S. for a gall bladder removal in a private hospital in Guadalajara. Our Joco paid an extra $450 U.S. to rent laproscopic equipment in the SP Medical Center. The private hospital was like checking into a medical resort.

So if you are old, and confined to a hospital bed under the Canadian, and I'm sure the Mexican system, you will be in a ward of multiple beds. No private rooms available (although in Canada, Blue Cross will cover this as an addon). Your fellow patients will be groaning, mumbling, farting, peeing all over the toilets. This is not a tummy tuck or Mexican facelift. The worst, or the best part, is that in Seguro Popular hospital the ward will be crowded with Mexican friends and family (kids and babies) all nibbling and sipping away like this is a great adventure. Mexico IS a great adventure, and some lifetime friendships have been formed in hospital wards all over the world and in history. Sharing pains and hardships that people rarely reveal. Plus you get to show off your god given a$$ to strangers because of those hospital shirts that you have to wear. Bonus!

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Don't know why I even bother responding to the folks here who make accusations and cast aspersions while being ignorant of much of what they are trying to talk about. Alan Mexicali has it right and SP and IMSS are merging as well. The system is for anyone living in Mexico and As I said, I put quite a few dollars into this economy and along with my Mexican friends see no issue with using SP. I have my medicare in the US, so SP is just for emergencies anyway. As I said, one can pick the hospital you wish to use and there are some good ones available. If one really investigates SP they will find many more stories of folks satisfied than bad experiences.

The gentleman that owns Adelita's wrote a three part series on SP that is very informative and complimentary.  

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From what i have seen, heard and read, it seems the Seguro Popular hospitals vary in the level of care, facilities available, etc, depending on the area. (kind of like the different ways that Immigration, consulates NOB, and Motor Vehicles, seem to go by different rules depending on where you go)

I once had to take a worker to the Seguro Popular hospital in San Pancho, Nayarit due to a scorpion bite he was having a severe reaction to. They plugged him into IV antivenom for 4 hours, during which time I had to sit in the waiting area, which was outside, so I had some observation time.

In the main hospital corridor there was a dirty old broom leaning up against the wall with a pile of garbage on the floor next to it. Wadded up tissues, empty pop cans and plastic bottles, candy wrappers, and some scarily unidentifiable stuff. While I think a lot of northerners are overly germ phobic, this was rather off-putting in a hospital setting.

There were several women in intense active labor trying to make themselves comfortable on the hard plastic chairs. They appeared to be left there until the last minute, whence they were whisked away for their Caesarian (apparently the most preferred method of birth for Mexican OB/Gyns).

A friend of mine had her baby there (they paid out-of-pocket) several years ago. Although her doctor had assured her beforehand that her husband could be in the delivery room, in fact, he was not allowed in. Then, although it was her third child and the other two natural births had gone smooth and pretty quickly, they didn´t want to let her walk around, squat, or any of the things that women in this day and age do up north be cause it is simply more comfortable and actually speeds up the labor. The nurses kept pushing her down in the bed, wanting her to stay flat on her back with her feet in the stirrups. She also said that the hospital was "filthy".

Good to hear that they are not all like that. 

And elevator, I can´t quite grasp how you equate expressing concern for the future availability of free or inexpensive health care for the average Mexican with being "small minded".

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Ex- Presidente Vincente Fox is from Guadalara, Jalisco. The new Presidente is from CDMX, and the political group which founded the IMSS. You know how things work here, nuff said.

San Pancho would be a medical outreach centre (I don't know the right word - sort of like a "field hospital") - the full hospital is (probably) in Tepic. I know of a man who moved to Tepic, for less pay, because the IMSS could help him with their autisitic son. Thinking about this though, it may be the other medical system for Federal employees, that Alan's wife worked for.

The Medical Center in Jocotepec was only constructed one year ago. My Father died from a medical condition (C. Dificil) that is usually contracted only from hospitals and care home type facilities. This was in Canada. That reminds me, a bottle of Clorox disinfectant wipes and sterilizing gel in the medical backpack.

I am sorry that this thread has wound into medical - but this is important stuff to know. I wanted to mention the Naval Hospital in Puerto Vallarta as recommended for lower cost medical procedures, with top Military and brought in specialist surgeons. Those sailors know how to swab a deck!

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Since you are smallminded you won't grasp any reasonable response so I won't bother.

And for Gringa and the others who "chuckle" and laugh about someone going to the hospital...please let me know when you need hospital care so I can have a laugh as well.

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I am afraid you are too late elevator we have been in hospitals here plenty of times some very good and some very bad. and in one that has a good reputation and is not that good except at collecting money In the bad oneas you better have family who can watch you, wsh you and help you because it can be pretty bad., so do not brag about the system until you have experienced it.

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18 hours ago, CHILLIN said:

Ex-.

San Pancho would be a medical outreach centre (I don't know the right word - sort of like a "field hospital") - the full hospital is (probably) in Tepic. I know of a man who moved to Tepic, for less pay, because the IMSS could help him with their autisitic son. Thinking about this though, it may be the other medical system for Federal employees, that Alan's wife worked for.

 

I was very impressed with the facility in San Pancho.  I asked for a tour when I was a tourist and it impressed me.  I would use it.

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23 hours ago, CHILLIN said:
1 hour ago, elevator said:

Since you are smallminded you won't grasp any reasonable response so I won't bother.

And for Gringa and the others who "chuckle" and laugh about someone going to the hospital...please let me know when you need hospital care so I can have a laugh as well.

ELEVATOR:  Reading comprehension would reveal that the chuckles were directed at YOU, imagining your reaction to the the normal conditions of public hospitals after living your very comfortable lifestyle.  On the other hand, you could be well content when thinking about the savings.  My guess is that you'll head for a medivac to the U.S. if you have a serious medical issue and will never see the inside of a public hospital.

Sorry about the format, Chillin........this site isn't working as it should.

 

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Gringa I know what you said and what you were referring to which was my being in a hospital...not tough to comprehend.

BMH.. where did I brag about the system. In my initial post I said everything in life is a gamble and you play the odds. I related some stories from people I know who had very good care through SP. I never claimed to have personal knowledge so would not venture to brag about it.

You have no idea about what I might or might not do...so go ahead and "guess" if you wish. I'll just keep my options open, which is what my plan has been all along.

 

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