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Flying out, leaving TIP car in Mexico

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Just read a Post on a San Miguel site where a person said the following:  " Our car permit is in my husband's name (we're on tourist visas). He had to fly out yesterday to care for his mom for awhile. When the plane was just about to take off, they found him and he had to pay a 390 peso fine because he's leaving the car behind. Word to the wise! "

Is this the beginning of the end of being able to do this and get away with it?  Yes, I know it is not 'legal', but folks do it all the time. I wonder what the status of that TIP is now?

 

 

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Welcome to Mexico starting to use computers to track all kinds of things. Was hoping they never would but it looks like I was wrong.

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Last time I drove down a few years ago at the car permit area they turned the monitor around and showed me every visa and permit I ever had in Mexico.  Yes Computers track things here now. We (and many others) decided it was not worth it to keep a gringo plated car here. Not regretted the decision as easier to fit in with Jalisco plates.

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http://www.sat.gob.mx/aduanas/vehiculos/importacion_temporal/Paginas/automoviles_ingles.aspx

 

"The term to return the temporarily imported vehicles by foreigners will be that of the term of their stay condition granted by the immigration authorities.

Return:

In order to register and obtain the receipt of the partial or definitive return of the vehicle, the interested party must present before the personnel of BANJERCITO working at the CIITEV Units of the customs offices of exit of the vehicle, the permit, hologram and, when applicable, the recreational vehicles and the tow for its transportation that have been temporarily imported."

If I understand it correctly if you have a 180 day FMM tourist card you are good to go for 179 days before you legally have to return to the border and turn in the TIP and receive your deposit back. It doesn´t mention what happens if you turn in your FMM tourist card and leave the country and then return with a new 180 day FMM tourist card before the TIP expires but won´t the TIP have the original 180 day expiration date on it? It appears you will get the TIP canceled and your deposit back if you show up at the border within the original 180 days and turn it in.

 

Also I am leery of posts that seem strange from posters I don´t know are not trolls on any Mexico forum. I´ve read some obviously false testimonies so many times it appears to me some people are simply bashing Mexico and Mexicans and fear mongering.

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1 minute ago, bournemouth said:

Alan - the OP is well known here,  respected and no troll - he is offering useful information.

Of course he is but he is not the person posting this: "a person said the following:  " Our car permit is in my husband's name (we're on tourist visas). He had to fly out yesterday to care for his mom for awhile. When the plane was just about to take off, they found him and he had to pay a 390 peso fine because he's leaving the car behind. Word to the wise! "

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Not questioning Rick but I have serious doubts this happened. Who is "they"? And"they" came on plane? Did "they" take the person off to pay and the plane waited?

saludos

Sonia

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According to the OP, the passenger was about to leave; not arrive.

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We know people that have been on a tourist visas the entire time. They own a house and US cars. They go back to the US a couple times a year and it is easy to keep the tourist visas current and never lapse.

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When you leave a car in Mexico on a tourist permit, and return with a fresh tourist permit, the car has become illegal in Mexico.  As an illegal vehicle, it could be subject to confiscation and the insurance may not be valid.  Just because you obtained a fresh tourist permit does not make the car legal again. It was supposed to leave before the original tourist permit AND the TIP expired.  Naturally, any applicable deposit will be forfeit.

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How is it fear mongering to state what the law is and that it is sometimes actually enforced? I personally know someone who had exactly what the OP posted happen about 5 years ago at the PV airport. Everyone is free to take their own chances, but knowledge is a good thing, no?

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1 hour ago, mudgirl said:

How is it fear mongering to state what the law is and that it is sometimes actually enforced? I personally know someone who had exactly what the OP posted happen about 5 years ago at the PV airport. Everyone is free to take their own chances, but knowledge is a good thing, no?

You took my post and twisted it around. Fear mongering is one of several things trolls try to do which has nothing to do with the TIPs or FMM tourist cards mentioned by me.

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3 hours ago, RVGRINGO said:

When you leave a car in Mexico on a tourist permit, and return with a fresh tourist permit, the car has become illegal in Mexico.  As an illegal vehicle, it could be subject to confiscation and the insurance may not be valid.  Just because you obtained a fresh tourist permit does not make the car legal again. It was supposed to leave before the original tourist permit AND the TIP expired.  Naturally, any applicable deposit will be forfeit.

http://www.sat.gob.mx/aduanas/vehiculos/importacion_temporal/Paginas/automoviles_ingles.aspx

 

"State under oath to tell the truth that they commit to return the vehicle concerned within the authorized term and no longer perform acts or omissions that constitute offenses or crimes due to the improper use or destination of the vehicle."

""The term to return the temporarily imported vehicles by foreigners will be that of the term of their stay condition granted by the immigration authorities. "

Authorized term = 180 days for the TIP:  FMM tourist card  = 180 days when applying for the TIP = TIP is valid for 180 days  "[the term of their stay condition granted by the immigration authorities. ]" .

 

I see nowhere where it is against the law to leave the car in Mexico and hand in your valid for 180 day FMM tourist card say 3 months early and then 2 weeks later get another 180 day FMM tourist card when re-entering Mexico and still return to the border before the 180 day TIP expires, hand in the TIP, get your deposit back and then hand in your second FMM tourist card  early.

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And in addition, once you have a TIP you may drive your vehicle across the border multiple times during the duration of of your permit. 

saludos

Sonia

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14 hours ago, HookEmHorns said:

LOts of incorrect information here, and some correct. Based on many personal experiences, Alan is correct. When you turn in your TIP, they do not ask about your FMM. The TIP paper shows when it expires and that is the date the car must be removed. You must have an FMM (or other doc.) to get the TIP, but the TIP stands alone, as does the FMM. IF you decide to turn them both in at the same time, then that is your choice. If you turn in your FMM before expiration and then get another, that act does not extend the date on your original TIP, as you are still bound by iuts original date. No forfeit of deposit if you comply with TIP date. Sorry, RV, you missed on this one.

That has been our experience as well.  They do not ask for your Tourist or other documents when you turn in the TIP.  We flew out and left our car once while we were on Tourist visa.  Later we drove our car out and got our deposit back.

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UPDATE:. Since I started this topic a couple of weeks ago, I've heard from the person who posted this account on an SMA forum.... 

The lady now believes that the reason they came on the plane had nothing to do with 'leaving a TIP car in Mexico', but that the fine had to do with a Tourist visa fee that was not payed. She said, 'my husband doesn't hear well nor speak Spanish and thought it had something to do with a car', but she now believes not.

So much for this being an indication that 'they' were able to 'see' information about a TIP vehicle left in Mexico while flying out......

 

 

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On 6/19/2016 at 9:25 AM, AlanMexicali said:

Of course he is but he is not the person posting this: "a person said the following:  " Our car permit is in my husband's name (we're on tourist visas). He had to fly out yesterday to care for his mom for awhile. When the plane was just about to take off, they found him and he had to pay a 390 peso fine because he's leaving the car behind. Word to the wise! "


I have spoken with Aduana agents at 3 different border crossings on this, and called SAT in Distrito Federal on this   All 4 said that a foreigner on a visitors visa is not allowed.to fly out of Mexico and leave their TIP car behind.

The TIP is valid only as long as the associated visa is valid.  When we fly out, we surrender the visitor's visa and INM cancels it.  That makes the TIP vehicle automatically illegal to drive, unless you get a Retorno Seguro permit.

Since many TIP holders carry a copy of Article 106 in their car, we can go back to our 'old friend' Article 106 of the Ley Aduanera (the section expats have used for over a decade to show police how long our TIP is good for).

Article 106, section IV of the Ley Aduanera covers this nicely:

 

Quote

 

"ARTICULO 106. ……………………………………………………………………………………………………..

Fracción IV.        Por el plazo que dure su condición de estancia, incluyendo sus renovaciones, en los términos y condiciones que establezca el Servicio de Administración Tributaria mediante reglas, en los siguientes casos:

a)    Las de vehículos propiedad de extranjeros que se internen al país, con la condición de estancia de visitante y residente temporal, siempre que se trate de un solo vehículo. ... "

 



Notice that the vehicle permit is only valid  " Por el plazo que dure su condición de estancia  ...  con la condición de estancia  de visitante y residente temporal".

INM and Aduana interpret this to mean that when the visitor flies out of Mexico,  the " la condición de estancia "  ends,  with the cancellation of their visitor's visa.

     If Article 106 used   'the expiration date'   versus "la condición de estancia",  then  Alan's personal interpretation could work,  but Article 106 specifically does   not   say "fecha de caducidad" .

Sonia's thoughts about driving out are an entirely different matter, because driving-out is not flying-out.

INM treats flying-out differently than driving-out, where visiting foreigners must surrender their visitors visa when flying out.

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On ‎20‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 11:47 AM, Sonia said:

And in addition, once you have a TIP you may drive your vehicle across the border multiple times during the duration of of your permit. 

saludos

Sonia

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On ‎19‎/‎06‎/‎2016 at 9:25 AM, AlanMexicali said:

Of course he is but he is not the person posting this: "a person said the following:  " Our car permit is in my husband's name (we're on tourist visas). He had to fly out yesterday to care for his mom for awhile. When the plane was just about to take off, they found him and he had to pay a 390 peso fine because he's leaving the car behind. Word to the wise! "


"I have spoken with Aduana agents at 3 different border crossings on this, and called SAT in Distrito Federal on this   All 4 said that a foreigner on a visitors visa is not allowed.to fly out of Mexico and leave their TIP car behind.

The TIP is valid only as long as the associated visa is valid.  When we fly out, we surrender the visitor's visa and INM cancels it.  That makes the TIP vehicle automatically illegal to drive, unless you get a Retorno Seguro permit.

Since many TIP holders carry a copy of Article 106 in their car, we can go back to our 'old friend' Article 106 of the Ley Aduanera (the section expats have used for over a decade to show police how long our TIP is good for).:"

 

This applies to Mexican citizens only. Foreigners with an INM document are suspossed to turn in their TIP every time they drive out and when they return get a new TIP If the above post is correct.

"Validity

The term to return the temporarily imported vehicles by Mexicans residents in a foreign country will be of 180 natural days of effective stay in the country, starting from the date of entry of the vehicle to national territory and usable in a period of twelve months, considering multiple entries and exits, guaranteed in all moments by the existing guarantee.
The term to return the temporarily imported vehicles by foreigners will be that of the term of their stay condition granted by the immigration authorities."
 
 

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My father in law, deceased for some years now, used to winter in Manzanillo with his wife.  He came for 6 months per year, rented nice places, ate out a lot, supported local charities and made a nice economic contribution to Mexico.

One time when he was here, a financial emergency came up and he had to fly back to Chicago for several days.  Upon his return he was arrested for leaving the car here WITH HIS WIFE and it cost him a bunch of mordida to get it handled.  He was thrown in jail and physically threatened in the process.

They left and never came back.  Never spent another nickel in this country.  

I wonder how many similar stories which all add up to economic loss for Mexico and the many Mexicans who work in the tourist and expat industries you would find.  I know of a number of them locally myself and I doubt I hear of more than a small fraction of the cases.

 And for what?  So some petty bureaucratic hack can justify his existence.  The numbers of cars brought here by expats is so trivial it doesn't even make a blip on the chocolate radar screen.  And of course, why do we have chocolates to begin with?

So the car dealers can charge retail and sell cars in Mexico at high prices to the detriment of everyone but the rich.  A noble cause, well suited to a government that can't provide even minimal security or basic infrastructure without stealing most of the money allocated thereto.  Smile when you hit those potholes!

Yeah, its the law and it is stupid and oppressive now just as it was then.  What it is more than anything is an excellent example of how government seems to exist for the main purpose of hassling people and taking their money.  It's no use to go back to the U.S. because the story is pretty much the same there.

BTW I drive a Jalisco plated car.  When we went permanente we removed a perfectly good "J" car back to the U.S. and sold it at a loss.  It wasn't worth it to go through the deliberately made expensive and convoluted process to import it.  That car was a real threat to Mexico, yep.

Rant over. :D

 

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I'm with you on this MC - I think the Manzanillo area is a hotbed of corruption though.

As you know, when we moved to Mexico, you were allowed a vehicle, as long as you renewed your FM2, FM3, FMM every year. We made the decision which vehicle to bring (we had 3 and 2 ride on mowers- remember that lifestyle?). We chose the vintage diesel 4x4 and sold all the others. The decision was partly because diesel is considered a greener fuel than gasoline, and these old engines can burn filtered cooking oil and home heating oil. It can climb the toughest trails, can go through deep water and sand. We mostly use it locally, but are armagedon ready - minus the guns! To the point - it is environmentally destructive, to force us back to Canada to sell the vehicle when it has less than 50,000 miles, on a vehicle which was engineered to last 250,000 miles. The environmental cost of building a new car to use in Mexico is a huge stain and carbon footprint on the world's environment. I don't think we are too far away from calling bureaucrats out on stupid, bonehead decisions, especially on environment violations which should be deemed criminal acts. The environment is for the future generations of Mexico. If you want to get people visiting again, you have to keep everything green and clean.

And less we forget, Spencer thought he could obtain an amparo on the administrative legislation - but nobody would step up to the plate with the greenbacks to fight it. Then it became general law, to late for would have been a quick street fight, but now a championship WWE effort.

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On June 20, 2016 at 9:08 PM, AlanMexicali said:

I see nowhere where it is against the law to leave the car in Mexico and hand in your valid for 180 day FMM tourist card say 3 months early and then 2 weeks later get another 180 day FMM tourist card when re-entering Mexico and still return to the border before the 180 day TIP expires, hand in the TIP, get your deposit back and then hand in your second FMM tourist card  early.

"I have spoken with Aduana agents at 3 different border crossings on this, and called SAT in Distrito Federal on this   All 4 said that a foreigner on a visitors visa is not allowed.to fly out of Mexico and leave their TIP car behind.

The TIP is valid only as long as the associated visa is valid.  When we fly out, we surrender the visitor's visa and INM cancels it.  That makes the TIP vehicle automatically illegal to drive, unless you get a Retorno Seguro permit.

Maybe I am missing something but are your comments not contradictory? So far I am with HOOKEMHORNS.

In this which I have read in the past many times, I do not see the tie to the FMM:  http://www.sat.gob.mx/aduanas/vehiculos/importacion_temporal/Paginas/automoviles_ingles.aspx Which states: "State under oath to tell the truth that they commit to return the vehicle concerned within the authorized term and no longer perform acts or omissions that constitute offenses or crimes due to the improper use or destination of the vehicle".

Can anyone point to the law that says specifically during your 180 day TIP you can not fly out and return and car is not legal? I can be convinced either way but so far I have not see the words as part of a law. 

saludos

Sonia

 

 

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Sonia, a lot of folks just make up their own information and claim it is the law. "Must be true because I've done it 5 times with no consequences" they say. :P

But I'm with you.... I've seen no one quote chapter and verse on this matter.

 

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Oh heck!  Let the nitpickers and scofflaws do as they wish. May they enjoy their confiscations and/or jail time if they do get caught. Granted, that few are caught, but when they are........ouch!

Fact, as I see it: Your car can stay for the length of your authorized stay. Your stay ends when you step out of Mexico and turn in your FMM.  If you do not turn it in, you enter a grey zone, but the moment you get a new one, the fact of your departure and end of your authorized stay becomes a know, verifiable fact, and a vehicle still sitting in Mexico became illegal at the moment of that act.  That is what those “words“ in the law say to me.  If they say something else to others, I am not concerned & wish them luck.

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RV but you are not in Mexico and often use words like "confiscate" while trying to instill fear and refer to "words" but you never quote a law. All some of us seek is an actual law and so far we have only seen myths, someone taking to someone, contradictory comments and rumours.

Note this thread started with misinformation as I quickly suspected and nothing to do with what is being discussed now. 

If anyone can post a law in Spanish that supports or refutes leaving a vehicle in Mexico while the tourist card holder leaves and returns within the 180 days the TIP is in effect I would sincerely love to be educated on this issue.

thanks

Sonia

 

 

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On 6/30/2016 at 11:36 AM, Mainecoons said:

My father in law, deceased for some years now, used to winter in Manzanillo with his wife.  He came for 6 months per year, rented nice places, ate out a lot, supported local charities and made a nice economic contribution to Mexico.

One time when he was here, a financial emergency came up and he had to fly back to Chicago for several days.  Upon his return he was arrested for leaving the car here WITH HIS WIFE and it cost him a bunch of mordida to get it handled.  He was thrown in jail and physically threatened in the process.

They left and never came back.  Never spent another nickel in this country.  

I wonder how many similar stories which all add up to economic loss for Mexico and the many Mexicans who work in the tourist and expat industries you would find.  I know of a number of them locally myself and I doubt I hear of more than a small fraction of the cases.

 And for what?  So some petty bureaucratic hack can justify his existence.  The numbers of cars brought here by expats is so trivial it doesn't even make a blip on the chocolate radar screen.  And of course, why do we have chocolates to begin with?

So the car dealers can charge retail and sell cars in Mexico at high prices to the detriment of everyone but the rich.  A noble cause, well suited to a government that can't provide even minimal security or basic infrastructure without stealing most of the money allocated thereto.  Smile when you hit those potholes!

Yeah, its the law and it is stupid and oppressive now just as it was then.  What it is more than anything is an excellent example of how government seems to exist for the main purpose of hassling people and taking their money.  It's no use to go back to the U.S. because the story is pretty much the same there.

BTW I drive a Jalisco plated car.  When we went permanente we removed a perfectly good "J" car back to the U.S. and sold it at a loss.  It wasn't worth it to go through the deliberately made expensive and convoluted process to import it.  That car was a real threat to Mexico, yep.

Rant over. :D

 

I second everything you just said.  Government offers nothing but expenses and aggravation.  It's all about control and getting money they have not earned.

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