Libramiento covered in garbage

[Guest bennie2]

luvdawgs #1) stop putting words in my mouth, it's manipulative. #2) in general if you asked mexicans to clean a major freeway they would be very insulted. the poorer people would want to be paid. (are the mexicans who clean beaches volunteers)? if so this is a first. #3) why not collect some $$ & pay some t boys? give them like 100-120 pesos for 2 hours. #4) in general blue collar mexicans wash the sidewalks in front of their houses. the solid middle class or upper middle would have the maid/gardener do it. they would be very insulted to clean a public place. #5) to the poster who said jalisco is the worst state, i agree. yes it IS a "backwater" town. who ever said that one is stealing my lines. lovedawgs, if you are so concerned about mexicans in the 3rd world, then give some poor boys a few hours work each week. its a winwin. if you want to know how to make things happen, ask bennie.

[Willie]

 Not sure about Jalisco being the worst state.....when living in Mazatlan, we called Sinaloa the Mississippi of Mexico!  No offense purposely intended.

This a bit of heaven by comparison!!!!

 

[Xena]

Barcelonaman, what do you mean when you call Mexico a "Third World country"? Since the actual meaning has long been corrupted I am never sure what the term means to the person using it. 

[Mainecoons]

7 hours ago, barcelonaman said:

I travel a lot around northern and central states of mexico. And find jalisco is the worst for infrastucture and maintance of services.here is not really typical of other states .

I've been in two thirds of Mexican states and tend to agree.  Jalisco roads are terrible.  But there was a lot more roadside trash in Chiapas.  I was very impressed with Durango.

[barcelonaman]

My thoughts on third world definition are.

Poverty levels.

Sub standard homes and living conditions

Poor infrastructure ( electricity and water supply. transport. Roads .communication etc.)

poor Education standards

Social security and services.(pensions .out of work benefit system. Care for elderly and sick. )

the law and how its upheld.

Environmental controls.

 

Other people will have other thoughts on this but this is my concept of third world.

Obviously not all of the above applies to mexico and some of the above refers to many so called first world countries as well. (No where is perfect.)

In general, citizens just being able to live a decent life without struggling to survive from day to day.

I am fully aware that there are many rich and middle class in mexico but i think i remember reading that poverty is around 40per cent in mexico. So a lot of people. There are some excellent cities here with high living standards. great infrastrucure. Monterrey. Queretaro. Just as  examples.

Guadalajara and much of jalisco is not in the same league as these places.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Mainecoons]

I personally view Mexico as "second world" or emerging nation.  Bad and corrupt government is this country's number one problem IMO.  At the state level, some are better than others, unfortunately Lake Chapala isn't in one of the better ones.

We see the effects of corruption locally as well.  I am always amazed in my travels to see so many municipios without the rich tax base this one has managing to keep their streets and other infrastructure clean and in far better repair.  You don't have to go far from Lake Chapala at all to see this.

 

[barcelonaman]

I didnt want to go down the political route and state the obvious and get into trouble with the mods !

Mexico has been an emerging country for too long, And has been over taken by the likes of bric countries.

Colombia has had similar problems to mexico and they are really catching up.and to keep on topic i believe their libramientos are rubbish free!!

[barcelonaman]

i am not knocking your efforts locally.how much a few hanging posts for trash and removing graffiti influences the locals here i dont know. but its this type of thing that makes it "third world".. you shouldnt have to do it, and doubt its common in non gringo communities.

 

 i am referring to state and national levels. anyway apparently i stole this phrase  from bennie !!

[cbviajero]

3 hours ago, barcelonaman said:

 

Mexico has been an emerging country for too long, And has been over taken by the likes of bric countries.

 

Personally speaking I would and do prefer to live in Mexico than in any of the "bric countries",India,China,Russia,Brazil,South Africa,etc.

[Guest bennie2]

if the students are willing to clean than ok fine. then again it depends upon how many hoops you are willing to jump thru. hoop jumping is what expats enjoy. gofigure. anyway, if they wont/cant help, then pay poor some boys who are not as fortunate to attend school. yes, get on w/it. why you are hanging around schools? its the parents who should have been involved. this area will never provide services because the expats do the work. its a given.

[Saturn]

22 minutes ago, bennie2 said:

if the students are willing to clean than ok fine. then again it depends upon how many hoops you are willing to jump thru. hoop jumping is what expats enjoy. gofigure. anyway, if they wont/cant help, then pay poor some boys who are not as fortunate to attend school. yes, get on w/it. dont why you are hanging around schools. its the parents who should have been involved. this area will never provide services because the expats do the work. its a given.

Maybe the last line here is the key? I too, have often wondered why small villages, towns and cities in other areas, as well as the roads that lead into them, are so clean, and they don't have the huge gringo tax base that we have here. These areas very obviously provide their own services, and results. 

Garbage bags are not going to cut it .....way too huge a mess for that. And until attitudes change here, nothing will be accomplished. What ever happened to Ajijic Limpio?

[CHILLIN]

11 minutes ago, Saturn said:

 they don't have the huge gringo tax base that we have here.

 

There is no such thing, that is why many people moved here. I saw at least 12 men picking trash, baking in the hot sun, along the Libramento on Saturday. If you want quiet, clean, secure, peaceful - you have to pay for it, this is the same all over the world. Charge a small toll to improve the bypass, and then hear the squawking.

[Saturn]

46 minutes ago, CHILLIN said:

There is no such thing, that is why many people moved here. I saw at least 12 men picking trash, baking in the hot sun, along the Libramento on Saturday. If you want quiet, clean, secure, peaceful - you have to pay for it, this is the same all over the world. Charge a small toll to improve the bypass, and then hear the squawking.

Obviously you misunderstood. I guess I needed to explain better. By huge gringo tax base, I mean the few thousand foreigners that live in this area, who pay their taxes yearly, instead of deferring it. I was comparing this area, with it's comparative weatth, from the foreign tax payers, to other areas with no foreigners, let alone a few thousand. Yet these areas are clean, often shockingly so, compared to here. 

I am happy it is being cleaned up. Not just for myself, but for all of us here, expat and Mexican. Hope it is maintained. Tolls are not the answer. Education, pride, and regular maintenance are. Like I said, there should be more than enough tax base here. 

 

 

[Joco]

As I told "John in Ajijic" once when he complained about the garage on the roads and highways not being picked up, offer to pay more taxes so they can hire people to clean it up.

 

Simple to solve.

[Mainecoons]

When we moved here 8 years ago, taxes were far less and yet they managed to fix the potholes, and I don't mean by throwing sand in them, and keep the village clean.  Anyone who thinks that giving the Chapala government more money is going to restore services just hasn't been paying to how successive administrations appear to disappear a lot of money with little to show for it. 

Too early to tell with this one but I'm not optimistic given the history.

Several well placed Mexicans we know have told me that this is one of the most problematic municipios in a state that is pretty problematic in its own right.  That certainly seems to jive with my motorcycle jaunts to now many, many of the towns in this state and nearby ones.  This is one of the dirtiest and least maintained I've seen, the towns even looked better in poverty stricken Chiapas.

 

 

[Guest bennie2]

niave americanos. over&over again w/wanting higher taxes. MC is correct. when will you all "get it"?? some of you have been here over 10 years & think you are back home. the only areas here that are cleaned up are private fracs like floresta. public areas? no way. 

[Saturn]

Correct.  I do not expect it to be cleaned up...nice if it does get done. I just don't get why other areas do much more with much less. Or, I guess I do. I shake my head at those who want to pay more. Others must be laughing. 

[Guest bennie2]

the mexicans were livid when i told the the expats wanted to pay more taxes. told them wayback when a group of busybodies went to city hall. both workingclass & middle class wish most of you would mind your business. (or just go away if they dont need your business).  

[gringal]

1 hour ago, Mainecoons said:

When we moved here 8 years ago, taxes were far less and yet they managed to fix the potholes, and I don't mean by throwing sand in them, and keep the village clean.  Anyone who thinks that giving the Chapala government more money is going to restore services just hasn't been paying to how successive administrations appear to disappear a lot of money with little to show for it. 

Too early to tell with this one but I'm not optimistic given the history.

Several well placed Mexicans we know have told me that this is one of the most problematic municipios in a state that is pretty problematic in its own right.  That certainly seems to jive with my motorcycle jaunts to now many, many of the towns in this state and nearby ones.  This is one of the dirtiest and least maintained I've seen, the towns even looked better in poverty stricken Chiapas.

 

 

It is a fatal flaw in logic to think that giving the government more money will automatically result in more services.

[CHILLIN]

The problem locally is not so much, education, or culture. It is the lack of jobs - real jobs. When people are bring home a descent pay, they gradually expect an increase in peace, security and pride of place. They want to live like the people they see on TV or movies, and like everywhere else, they are also bombarded with images of happy, shiny, family units. Mexico is somewhat unique in that the media, especially newspapers and magazines, also publish photos of horrific violence and poverty. The public supports all this because I think they kind of appreciate that there is always someone worse off than them.

[mudgirl]

Here's my example of third world-  When I went to get Nayarit plates in San Vicente, north of PV, the guy got the VIN numbers off the engine block thus: he lay under my car with a used diesel-soaked rag, which he smeared over the VIN numbers, then took a little piece of scotch tape and pressed it over this, then rubbed his finger back and forth over it to transfer the numbers to the tape, then pulled off the tape and stuck it to the outside of my water bottle, which we took upstairs, where he peeled it off the water bottle and stuck it on the back of the registration application. It was far from legible.

I said, You know, they have these little machines, electronic VIN # readers, just point and shoot. He said, Yeah, in the US. I said, No, actually all the Mexican Aduana agents at the borders use them, you should ask for one.

[bmh]

When I came to the US in 1970 I was appalled at the state of the beaches down south now they are wonderful and clean so this too will pass.just wait for the rainy season the grass will be tall and you will not see the garbage or just ignore it..