bdmowers Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 7 hours ago, JRPJR said: I would suggest that evidence that shows that something "could be' doing something is not very conclusive. But in any event since there is "much evidence" to show this is the case, perhaps you could provide several references to different studies to support your claim. If you`re curious, I`d suggest you look it up yourself. This subject has been discussed and referenced ad nauseum in this forum. I`m not really interested in rehashing it all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, cbviajero said: On 1/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, cbviajero said: What exactly is the problem with GMO corn? Aren't the crop yields better. Doesn't Mexico import most of the maize consumed here from the US? Just curious. BTW,I've helped my father in-law desquelitar his milpa in Guanajuato,hard work. What exactly is the problem with GMO corn? Aren't the crop yields better. Doesn't Mexico import most of the maize consumed here from the US? Just curious. BTW,I've helped my father in-law desquelitar his milpa in Guanajuato,hard work. As a Ph.D. public health & environment chemist, I can say with 100% certainty that Monsanto's GMO seeds that include genes from non-food species ... are definitely not the same as the natural food-sourced genes from our prior 6,000 years of crop breeding. ... When Monsanto scientists insert mouse genes, or bacteria genes, or fungus genes into their GMO seed's DNA: The resulting GMO-DNA is very very different ('Frankenfoods') from human's previous 6,000 years of natural food-sourced genetic breeding. These never-before-seen 'Frankenfood' combinations of microbial genes inserted into corn genes cause the corn plants to artificially create new never-before-seen artificial chemicals in their seed and new never-before-seen proteins etc that our immune systems are not designed to handle. This is part of why humans are legally prohibited from eating GMO corn... There are also 20 years of documentation of multiple proven problems with Monsanto's GMO seed usages - based on overall significantly higher costs and lower overall long-term yields, but that belongs in a separate post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, cbviajero said: What exactly is the problem with GMO corn? Aren't the crop yields better. Doesn't Mexico import most of the maize consumed here from the US? Just curious. BTW,I've helped my father in-law desquelitar his milpa in Guanajuato,hard work. Crop Yield Problems and Heavy Insecticide, Heavy Herbicide & Heavy Fertilizer usage required by GMO crops: We should not ignore the 20 years of documentation of multiple proven problems with Monsanto's GMO seed-system usages: ~ The crop yields are higher for the first 3 years using Monsanto's GMO system of GMO-seeds, plus their required herbicides & required pesticides + the GMO-seed-required heavy fertilization => There is significant proven environmental damage from the excess nitrate & phosphate run-offs from the heavy fertilization required by Monsanto's GMO crop-system, and => There is significant proven environmental damage from the heavy pesticide & herbicide use required by the Monsanto GMO crop-system - as the Monsanto chemicals run-off into our drinking water streams, rivers, & lakes, => Plus, we shouldn't ignore proven problems with new insect-resistance and disease-resistance developing as both insects & diseases .. and weeds ... become tolerant to the Monsanto chemicals => super-bugs, super weeds, super-fungi, super-molds, & super-blights ... tolerant all-new weeds&pests that are created by GMO-crop-system heavy pesticide & heavy insecticide usage. ~ .... Then, by year 5, the crop yields steadily decline ... causing the overall costs per bushel of corn, bale of cotton, etc all wind up being measureably higher than if they never changed to the GMO+heavy fertilization+heavy pesticide & insecticide use. ... These problems are not mentioned by Monsanto in their US slick sales brochures, but over 120,000 suicides a year by bankrupted family farmers in India, who lose their land to Monsanto-distributor loan sharks, due to the lower crop yields and substantially net higher operating costs after 5 years. And none of these points cover how Monsanto's GMO seeds are spreading to neighbor's fields ... in every place they have been used ... jumping uncontrolled, permanently into the surrounding farms ... and once Monsanto's 'Franken-genes' are out in the environment, creeping into our food supply ... as they have already been found in Doritos corn chips ... there is no putting the genie back into the bottle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 On 1/29/2016 at 7:29 PM, cbviajero said: What exactly is the problem with GMO corn? Aren't the crop yields better. Doesn't Mexico import most of the maize consumed here from the US? Just curious. BTW,I've helped my father in-law desquelitar his milpa in Guanajuato,hard work. Continued factual scientific reasons for not allowing GMO products nor GMO seeds into Mexico: ========================================= Next, consider the many hollow claims that the Monsanto GMO-seed system is somehow the same as the previous 6,000 years of crop breeding: If you have grandchildren whom you want to stay healthy, or if you care about future generations of kids around the world, remember these facts: ~ GMO seed contain genes never-before-seen in natural food crops: .... Inserting bacteria-genes into a corn seed causes the corn plants to make - new unnatural proteins - in the corn products. ... Human genes and human immune systems developed to handle the ordinary proteins and ordinary natural chemicals found in 6,000 years of human plant breeding. ... The new unnatural proteins and new artificial chemicals that Monsanto's GMO seed make are causing problems for kids & adults with allergy problems => On a chemical & molecular levels, the GMO's really are 'Franken-foods' combinations of us eating genetic materials from laboratory-fusions of microbes genes + corn genes + other 'Monsanto propriatary' Frankenstein-like combinations on non-food genetic materials ... artificially inserted into our 6,000 years of natural food-sourced genes. As a Ph.D. public health & environment chemist, I can say with 100% certainty that Monsanto's GMO seeds that include genes from non-food species ... are definitely not the same as the natural food-sourced genes from our prior 6,000 years of crop breeding. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bdmowers Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 Thanks, Snowco, it`s difficult for a non trained scientist like me to do all the research necessary then express the problems with GMO seeds and food. Thanks for laying it out for us. GMO is a nightmare recklessly being visited upon the earth - humans and non-humans and the earth`s vulnerable soils - by large corporations purely to satisfy their "bottom line" and their shareholders, in other words, for pure greed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRPJR Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 18 hours ago, bdmowers said: If you`re curious, I`d suggest you look it up yourself. This subject has been discussed and referenced ad nauseum in this forum. I`m not really interested in rehashing it all. I guess that means you can't come with any examples. However if your concern is that the references that you are aware of may be above my ability to understand, let me try to put your mind at ease. I have a PhD in physical organic chemistry and after receiving my doctorate spent 2 years as a post doctoral fellow studying the effects of molecular isomeric structure on biological activity. Because of my background I have difficulty with people sharing their beliefs with others as fact without documentation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luvsdawgs Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 OK, one more thing. It was on the news last year that frog dna was being used on orange tree dna in Florida to produce a "better" orange. Read, more profitable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 2 hours ago, JRPJR said: I guess that means you can't come with any examples. However if your concern is that the references that you are aware of may be above my ability to understand, let me try to put your mind at ease. I have a PhD in physical organic chemistry and after receiving my doctorate spent 2 years as a post doctoral fellow studying the effects of molecular isomeric structure on biological activity. Because of my background I have difficulty with people sharing their beliefs with others as fact without documentation. As a Ph.D. Analytical Chemist co-owner of a 75 person analytical soil, air, water, and tissue testing laboratory, we performed over $10 million of pesticide & herbicide testing on farm run-off waters, streams, lakes and rivers from across America for the USGS, 17 different State governments, the US DOD & DOE for 13 years, and I can definitely say that we saw Monsanto's glyphosate & Roundup based herbicides in water samples across America at troubling levels that were affecting both fish and aquatic biota health. Our herb & pest test results were consistently confirmed by parallel toxicity testing using various types of fish fry: Rather than JRPJR's guessing & hypothesizing as an academic post-Doc who has not done decades field studies: EVERY time we determined problematic levels of Monsanto's GMO crop program herbicides & pesticides, the bio-testing labe simultaneously saw unusually high, troubling-ly low LD50 concentrations => where 50% of the fish fry were killed by the stream, lake, and river water containing even low levels of Monsanto pesticide and herbicides necessary for their 'Frankenfood' GMO crops. JRPJR: Rather than critiquing other's points, you could offer some data or some research studies that contradict the 3 decades of findings of the significant problems caused directly by GMO-farming. ... Hint: We won't be seeing any substantive replies by JRPJR, because the legitimate reliable studies of real-world pollution effects from GMO crop systems demonstrate the problems I described above. And yes, just like big-Tobacco industry and big-Cigarette industry 'sponsored' 'research' studies claimed that cigarettes were safe & healthy - by doing cooked-biased research. So, yes, there are Monsanto 'sponsored' 'research' studies that claim no harm ... but those Monsanto paid-for studies are as reliable as Philip Morris & RJR research that claimed '3 pack a day' cigarette smoking was 'safe & healthy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 8, 2016 Report Share Posted March 8, 2016 JRPJR: Rather than critiquing other people's points, you could offer some data or some research studies that contradict the 3 decades of consistently negative findings of the significant problems caused directly by GMO-farming. ... Hint: We won't be seeing any substantive replies by JRPJR, because the legitimate reliable studies of real-world pollution effects from GMO crop systems demonstrate the problems I described above. And yes, just like big-Tobacco industry and big-Cigarette industry 'sponsored' 'research' studies claimed that cigarettes were safe & healthy - by doing cooked-biased research. So, yes, there are Monsanto 'sponsored' 'research' studies that claim no harm ... but those Monsanto paid-for studies are as reliable as Philip Morris & RJR research that claimed '3 pack a day' cigarette smoking was 'safe & healthy'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/gmo-farming-poisoning-worlds-drinking-water The above is ONE that I chose because even if you avoid GMO like the plague, you can't get away from what they've done to the water which we all need even if we're growing organically. Here's a list of a whole pile more...nine pages of links to articles. http://www.greenmedinfo.com/guide/health-guide-gmo-research Luvsdawgs...I remember when ALAR was sprayed on all apple trees to make the apples the lovely red that consumers identified with by keeping them on the tree longer. Then it was discovered to be a carcinogen...bye bye alar. I would so like studies to be done BEFORE it is applied to anything that we eat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 If Monsanto's GMO-corn is so good, why was it banned for human consumption in the USA 12 years ago? For readers who are unsure about the science of what's claimed above: Good Analytical Chemists & Public Health Chemists are trained for at least 10 years ... in professional real-world determinations of the health risks presented by pesticides, herbicides, and GMO foods ... Note that a 'post-doc' like JRPJR is a still a student who is still in school to receive more training before they go out to get a real-world chemistry job. Also note that 'physical-organic chemists' like JRPJR are generally theoretical chemists with minimal experience in testing & evaluating real-world water, soil or tissue samples. As an environmental professional working with EPA & FDA regs since the 1970's, it's clear that when the best food-science scientists in Europe and the USA ~ ban GMO-corn for human consumption ~ it speaks volumes about the very real scientific safety concerns over GMO-corn.https://www.rt.com/news/banned-gm-resurfaces-saudi-arabia-074/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHILLIN Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 The entry of the overbearing hipsters in the late 1970's also opened the stage door for the Quincy ME, the cranky "super" scientist, alert to the devious ways of criminal minded corporations. It didn't matter if they were right or wrong, as long as there is lots of drama, buoyed by speculative data at best. They don't want to be regarded toiling environmental scientists, no, they are exciting, dynamic people, out to save the world, and all its little babies. There main contribution is stuffing the data banks of Snopes.com. Farmers committing suicide in India (never happened). Canadian farmer sued by Monsanto (the court verdict was that he actually stole $1,000's worth of seeds). Mexicans not allowed to eat GMO corn (um-those tostados from Mexico City sure are good), Declining crop returns, you don't seem to understand corporate farming too well, this would never be allowed, and it is not, which is why so many Mexican farmers want in on the gravy train. I think in the end,there are a bunch of scientists who are blathering $%&/()s, they just want attention and monies to carry our their research, which no one is interested enough to pay for. Then in Flint Michigan there are vigilant protectors of the environment, who are so criminally incompetent, that over a period years the City's drinking water became poisonous. No wonder the people no longer support the scientific whistle blowers, who all to often are not blowing whistles at all, they are blasting toxic gases from another human orifice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHILLIN Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Now this Snopes post about Monsanto is very telling. http://www.snopes.com/food/tainted/monsantocorn.asp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferret Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Follow the money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JRPJR Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Here's a recent article from NBC's Today show online with some quotes from a NY Times writer. I doubt either the Times or NBC could be considered pro agribusiness. I think the article points out that there are pros and cons to the growing and consumption of GMO foods. The concerns really seem to center more on the farming process itself rather than the consumption. For the record the FDA has no current requirement that GMO containing foods be treated any differently than their non GMO counterparts. http://www.today.com/health/gmo-fears-t18036 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHILLIN Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Now this article about the 100's of 1,000's of suicides in India because they can't afford Monsanto seeds is also telling. http://issues.org/30-2/keith/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 Note that Chillin' has no professional public health background, and no environmental-testing scientific background ... and appears to have little or no professional scientific training. Sadly, internet content frequently get's dragged-down to its lowest levels by people with no expertise & no experience, by people who resort to personally nasty Cruz-like and Trump-like name-calling and personal smears. Why ignore: The GMO-corn's proven problems with new insect-resistance and new disease-resistance developing as both insects & diseases .. and weeds ... become tolerant to the Monsanto chemicals. Chillin ignores => super-bugs, super weeds, super-fungi, super-molds, & super-blights ... tolerant all-new weeds&pests that are created by GMO-crop-system's heavy pesticide & heavy insecticide usage. Chillin' ignores; ~ GMO seeds contain genes never-before-seen in natural food crops: .... Inserting bacteria-genes into a corn seed causes the corn plants to make - new unnatural proteins - in the corn products. ... Human genes and human immune systems developed to handle the ordinary proteins and ordinary natural chemicals found in 6,000 years of human plant breeding. ... The new unnatural proteins and new artificial chemicals that Monsanto's GMO seed make are causing problems for kids & adults with allergy problems => On a chemical & molecular levels, the GMO foods really are 'Franken-food' combinations - causing us to eat genetic materials from laboratory-fusions of microbes genes + corn genes + other 'Monsanto propriatary' Frankenstein-like combinations of non-food genetic materials ... GMO food's central activity is artificially inserting non-food genes into our 6,000 years of natural food-sourced genes. ... Chillin also ignores the environmental problems caused by the excess Monsanto glyphosate, insecticide, & fertilizer runoff caused by Monsanto's GMO corn-farming system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHILLIN Posted March 9, 2016 Report Share Posted March 9, 2016 21 minutes ago, snowyco said: Note that Chillin' has no professional public health background, and no environmental-testing scientific background ... and appears to have little or no professional scientific training. That sure was a great comfort to the fine citizens of Flint Michigan. It was a housewife who was the first "whistleblower". You are flogging a dead horse, relying on skills and memories which are long past their sell by date. GMO won, and is winning converts everyday. Mexico wants in on it. http://southsaskfarmer.com/2014/01/02/grow-gmos/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 Sure... a Flint Michigan housewife ... or a far-off Chapala arm-chair critic can look at brown water and say: ... "There's a problem here." Identifying exactly what problem, where the problem is coming from, and identifying the specific risks was done by professionals. Chillin's version of the Flint problems ignores: the fine analytical testing done by analytical chemistry professionals at Virginia Tech U - where it took Ph.D. chemical professionals to first, identify the contamination ... and then those same analytical chemists identified the source-cause of the contamination ... Those same analytical chemist Ph.D. professionals then definitively proved the risks ... Sadly, the internet is full of uneducated Monday-morning quarterbacks, who sit in judgment and personally critique & smear the people who solve the problems, and criticize those actually do the work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowyco Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 As I commented about Monsanto's loan-shark partners/distributors, consider what Chillin's article really said: "... Sadanadan found that states with the highest incidence of farmer suicides were those that offered the least institutional credit to farmers. This forced small farmers into the hands of private lenders who charge exorbitant interest rates (as high as 45%). In those states where farmers had better access to institutional credit and farm insurance, there were markedly fewer suicides. " So, Chillin's article actually confirms what was written about the nasty negative aspects of Indian farmers using Monsanto's mandatory very expensive chemical programs. These farmers had previously maintained their family farms for generations, until the bought into Monsanto's slick promises of higher yields & Monsanto's promises of higher returns. => Chillin's article reports that Monsanto GMO's higher operating costs directly drove over 120,000 Indian farmers to take big risks that ultimately forced them into bankruptcy... drove the poor farmers of their land ... leaving them humiliated & ruined ... falling desperately into committing suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mod-3 Posted March 10, 2016 Report Share Posted March 10, 2016 This is getting personal and going nowhere. Closed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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