Aguinaldo & vacation pay

[5Jacks]

Based on the above, I am confused on vacation pay. My maid has worked for me 2 years, one day a week. You pay her 250 a week for one day. Does this mean I have to pay her 8 x 250=2000pesos? Doesn't seem right.

I interpret the "daily rate" as the weekly pay divided by 7. In your case, 250/7, and then multiply that by the number of days specified in the chart.

[kbleitch]

Joyfull, from Sonia's post above, as well as Rollybrook's site:

Salario Diario: take the amount paid in a week and divide by 7 for daily rate. For example, a person who works 2 days a week and makes 350 p / day. That is 700 pesos divided by 7 for a daily rate of 100 pesos.

So, your maid's daily rate would be 35.72.

[snowyco]

Joyfull,
kbleitch's and 5Jacks explanations fit Sonia's April 2015 explanations and advice very well, for both the 15 days of aguinaldo pay calculation + plus the + ______ days of vacation pay calculation.

[mudgirl]

Vacation pay:

# days worked in the year divided by 365 x # vacation days (8 for someone who has worked for you for 2 years) x 1.25 x daily pay ( what they earn in a week divided by 7).

[snowyco]

There's one more problem with making the ersatz choice of equating "quince dias" to just "two weeks" or to ½ of a month:
It cheats the employee out of 8% of their aguinaldo.

If the gringo employer says that 15 days pay = ½ month pay = only 2 weeks pay ... then the gringo is claiming that the year is made of 12 months, each month with 2 "two week" periods.

This sounds good at first glance, but that ersatz "2 weeks" = 15 days, calculates to just 48 weeks a year.
(two "2 week" periods a month = 4 weeks a month x 12 months = 48 weeks a year)

Why short your workers aguinaldo pay, by claiming that a year has only 48 weeks => shorting them 4 weeks ?

The Ley de Trabajo specifies 15 days of daily pay for the aguinaldo, which fits with the Ley de Trabajo's 20 days of daily pay for severance, and fits with the varying # days for vacation pay, etc.

It makes sense to just follow the law, where "quince dias" of pay = 15 days of pay.

[El Bizco]

I pay aguinaldo that is greater than a month. I don't use 14 days or 15 days. My interest in this debate is not to find a way to screw an employee, it is purely academic, this meaning/use of 15 dias. I hope everyone pays more than the law requires.

That said, I know it is very difficult for some to grasp that 15 dias = 2 semanas in this culture. But Mexico is not unique in this. In Italy, 8 giorni = 1 settimana. And I'm pretty certain it is that way in much of Asia as well. Why this is, can be another thread. Right now what interests me is the use of 15 dias in a law. To a NOBer that would mean clearly 15 days, not 2 weeks. For many NOBers it would be inconceivable that it could mean anything else but 15 days. Yet my very educated Mexican wife insists that it is. And a Mexican attorney referrenced in this thread says it is. And having lived a long time in Italy, I am used to this way of thinking, and I agree. (And it's certainly easier for an employee, who perhaps can't read and is used to being paid by the week, to calculate. They know they have 2 weeks coming. They aren't thinking 15 days.) I believe the lawmakers were using 15 dias in its most common meaning: 2 weeks.

So, I challenge you Sonia, if you are a native speaker of Mexican Spanish, I'd like you to tell us all that 15 dias does not mean 2 semanas. Moreover, since you never answered my PM but read it, please explain the website you referenced to use for aguinaldo calculations. It is not an official government site. It is just a site put together by persons unknown. It doesn't mean the algorithims they use are correct. In fact, the 14 vs 15 day issue aside, I gave you numbers that show the site makes an incorrect calculation. (The computer program demands that you enter a monthly pay amount. Anyone who has ever done a payroll by hand knows that if you are paying someone by the week, you can't start using calculations based on a month, as a month is not equally divisible by weeks. The only way to get a accurate monthly figure is to do an average: add up the pay for the entire year then divide 365 by 12. That will likely give you a compound number of pesos and centavos, but the program will only accept an integer, a non-decimal number. So you have to either round up or down and either result is incorrect. That program is neither elegant nor accurate.)

How about you Spencer? I know you aren't a native speaker of Mexican Spanish, but what about 15 dias? And what number are you using in your aguinaldo calculation?

As I said, I pay a very generous aguinaldo and my interest in this is academic, so please don't get all puffed up with your responses. I would especially like to hear from persons who have used a Mexican attorney and learn what they used, 15 or 14.

For those interested in why Mexicans say 2 weeks is 15 days, and why Italians say 1 week is 8 days, I suggest we start a new thread to explore that.

[slainte39]

Because if you begin 2 weeks from the same hour to the same hour, unless it's 12:01 AM to 12:00 PM, 14 days later, you will have 15 days, just not 15 complete days. If you use the numbers in the last sentence, you will be 1 minute short of 2 weeks, and only 14 days.

Make sense? The law does not say 15 complete days, because any Mexican knows what 15 days means. Obviously, a few people on this board don't have a Mexican education, or even the common sense of most Mexicans.

Not worth a new thread.

[snowyco]

Because if you begin 2 weeks from the same hour to the same hour, unless it's 12:01 AM to 12:00 PM, 14 days later, you will have 15 days, just not 15 complete days. If you use the numbers in the last sentence, you will be 1 minute short of 2 weeks, and only 14 days.

Make sense? The law does not say 15 complete days, because any Mexican knows what 15 days means. Obviously, a few people on this board don't have a Mexican education, or even the common sense of most Mexicans.

Not worth a new thread.

"Make sense? The law does not say 15 complete days, because any Mexican knows what 15 days means. "

If "quince dias" in the Ley de Trabajo really means only pay for 14,

then (?) are you also telling people to only pay 19 days of finiquito, when the Ley says "veinte dias" ?

When the Ley de Trabajo orders us to pay "10 dias" of vacation pay, do you advise us to only pay for 9 ?

Why would the Ley de Trabajo published in the DOF have one unique "15 days really means only 14 days" of pay listing,

while all the other DOF citations of in numbers of days of Salarios Diarios of days of payments-owed-to-workers required by the Ley de Trabajo mean the actual number ? Or do I misunderstand your point ??

Make sense?

[snowyco]

Because if you begin 2 weeks from the same hour to the same hour, unless it's 12:01 AM to 12:00 PM, 14 days later, you will have 15 days, just not 15 complete days. If you use the numbers in the last sentence, you will be 1 minute short of 2 weeks, and only 14 days.

Make sense? The law does not say 15 complete days, because any Mexican knows what 15 days means. Obviously, a few people on this board don't have a Mexican education, or even the common sense of most Mexicans.

Not worth a new thread.

.

"Make sense? The law does not say 15 complete days, because any Mexican knows what 15 days means. "

Do you also advise us that the "cinco (5) dias retorno seguro" permit DOF listing is really only for 4 days?

Similarly: When we get a 180 day visitante visa as listed in both the Ley de Migración and SRE Laws mean it expires in just 179 days?

When the Ley de Migración and SRE Laws order us to go to our local INM within "treinta dias" of arriving in Mexico to continue the Residente Temporal visa or Residente Permanente visa process,

are you telling people they must go to their INM office in 29 days ?

How should we apply this Do It Yourself " -1 system" of days to published Mexican laws that refer to "business days" ... where the DOF says "cinco dias" , which lawyers across Mexico interpret as 5 business days (1 week) for retorno seguro permits , because the "logical" system of

"quince dias magically = 14 days" then do you say that our retorno seguro permits are good for only 4 days.

Make sense ?

[slainte39]

A straw man argument....

You keep comparing days vs. days when the argument is about quince days being the vernacular that Mexicans use for 2 weeks.

I am not saying they use 180 days meaning 179 or that 5 days means 4 days. I am only addressing the one time period with an explanation and not a legal opinion. Stay with the item or topic being addressed.

Make sense?

I'm surprised you didn't throw in that Mexicans say 366 dias por un ano...which they don't.

[Ferret]

Somehow I doubt that "vernacular" terms are used in a court of law. It makes about as much sense as saying "someone meant to say" instead of "they actually said".

Whatever...I will continue to use "15 DAYS" (and not two weeks) which is the way it was confirmed to me by C.P. Eva Virginia Gonzalez Robles of Bucerias, Nayarit who, as an accountant specializing in labour law, has defeated many lawyers in court on the subject.

Always get a receipt for the "legal" monetary obligations pertaining to an employee. If you want to give them the moon in addition, then no receipt is required.

[Al Berca]

OK. Two weeks pay. Got it. Thanks.

[El Saltos]

It's that simple. Same with vacation. There is no need to get into complicated mathematical computations. Especially with vacation, I urge my employees to take their vacation, they do, then I pay them for any unused.

[Ferret]

<insert smiley banging head against wall>

[slainte39]

Somehow I doubt that "vernacular" terms are used in a court of law. It makes about as much sense as saying "someone meant to say" instead of "they actually said".

Whatever...I will continue to use "15 DAYS" (and not two weeks) which is the way it was confirmed to me by C.P. Eva Virginia Gonzalez Robles of Bucerias, Nayarit who, as an accountant specializing in labour law, has defeated many lawyers in court on the subject.

Always get a receipt for the "legal" monetary obligations pertaining to an employee. If you want to give them the moon in addition, then no receipt is required.

Someone asked why Mexicans say quince dias(vernacular) for 2 weeks and I was just giving my personal interpretation, nothing more.

You can pay whatever you like for aguinaldos and I'm not giving any legal advice or suggesting what you say in a "court of law*.

I am surprised that your accountant has defeated many lawyers in court on this subject as in many years in business and knowing many employers, I have never heard of it going to any kind of court or administrative decision. It must be a bigger issue with a lot more parties in Bucerias than it is here at lakeside or Guadalajara.

[Ferret]

It was in the courts of Tepic during the "boom" construction period on the coast. Many builders for the big projects brought in workers from out of state and took shameless advantage of them.

When we started to build our own house there, we knew who we should see to get all the workers covered properly because she was cousin to Lawyer Sergio Santana who carefully went over all our documents when we purchased the land. We knew all the stories of individual homeowners who hadn't covered their workers correctly, couldn't register their homes because they hadn't and had huge fines levied by the government against them because of it.

Nayarit is very strict.

[Sonia]

Agree with Ferret. Some companies pay a month extra and others even 6 weeks. Those paying six weeks pay 4 weeks in December and 2 weeks in July. Having worked in HR for many years in small and large companies and closely with accountants plus having been to several labor board hearings I will continue with 15 days and that is considered the minimum.

Happy Holidays

Sonia

[Tomas]

The readers here need to remember that some of the posters here are the same ones who have spent their lives trying to pick the fly shit out of their pepper shaker. We have good workers and pay them mush more than is mandated for both their Christmas bonus and vacation pay...This is especially beneficial as the U.S.$$ has strengthened so much compared to the peso..it costs us nothing more in peso's..Be generous to your valued employees..

[Carnivore]

Our staff, gardener and maid, each with us for 10 years will receive the following; 15 days pay for Christmas, 14 days pay for Vacation which they have never taken and when they want a day or two here and there we simply give it to them without docking their pay. In addition they receive an additional bonus that represents 25% of their Vacation pay. Our staff also have a weekly saving deducted from their regular pay and tomorrow when they receive their full Christmas pay the gardener will receive his accumulated savings of $5,200.00 pesos ($100.00 per week) and the maid her savings of $2,600.00pesos ($50.00 per week).

Our staff will receive their

Any of our full time resident friends pay their staff using exactly this same formula that was clearly detailed to us by our Mexican lawyer.

Commencing with their first pay of the new year their pay will be adjusted upward in keeping with the published cost of living increase.

When reading some of the posts that have been made within this thread it's very apparent that many expats are being far less than fair with their employees.

Oh.....and yes....in the case of our gardener we pay for IMSS coverage for his entire family of five.

[El Saltos]

Our staff, gardener and maid, each with us for 10 years will receive the following; 15 days pay for Christmas, 14 days pay for Vacation which they have never taken and when they want a day or two here and there we simply give it to them without docking their pay. In addition they receive an additional bonus that represents 25% of their Vacation pay. Our staff also have a weekly saving deducted from their regular pay and tomorrow when they receive their full Christmas pay the gardener will receive his accumulated savings of $5,200.00 pesos ($100.00 per week) and the maid her savings of $2,600.00pesos ($50.00 per week).

Our staff will receive their

Any of our full time resident friends pay their staff using exactly this same formula that was clearly detailed to us by our Mexican lawyer.

Commencing with their first pay of the new year their pay will be adjusted upward in keeping with the published cost of living increase.

When reading some of the posts that have been made within this thread it's very apparent that many expats are being far less than fair with their employees.

Oh.....and yes....in the case of our gardener we pay for IMSS coverage for his entire family of five.

Staff who've been with you for 10 years deserve (and are owed) substantially more than two weeks vacation. You may want to check with your attorney again on the details of the law concerning vacation earned for time in service.

[Yo1]

I was talking with a friend the other day who said some of his neighbors who have had employees for 7-10 years have never paid vacation and have never given their employees a raise! My friend gives his employees a raise the same as the inflation rate in order that they aren't losing ground with their purchasing power. He is Canadian so doesn't get the same good exchange rate that the dollar does. His neighbors castigate him for what they feel is overpaying his help, but it is they who are cheating their employees, taking advantage of their situation and being cheap.

[Yo1]

Staff who've been with you for 10 years deserve (and are owed) substantially more than two weeks vacation. You may want to check with your attorney again on the details of the law concerning vacation earned for time in service.

Years 5-9 is 14 days vacation. Year 10 is 16 days vacation

[El Saltos]

Years 5-9 is 14 days vacation. Year 10 is 16 days vacation

Correct. 14 work days, not two weeks pay.

[Al Berca]

Huh?

[El Saltos]

There's difference between "two weeks" pay and 14 days of vacation (which is nearly 3 weeks). My maid has worked for us for 10+ years. She works 5 days per week. She gets 2 and 4/5 weeks of vacation, i.e. 14 days.