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GeckoGretchen

Old issue obviously never resolved

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I know what a "rave" is. Do you?

I try very hard to choose my words carefully. Therefore, good bye.

Yes I do. That's why I put up the definition for you and others who don't appear to understand the term encompasses a range of events with some common characteristics.

Did you not get the parts about how long they run and the emphasis on monster sound systems the like which have now appeared in the middle of Ajijic courtesy of the Lenzo Charro?

Cats, I do remember the big Rave that trashed the Seis Esquinas soccer field and drove the west side of town nuts for two days. That seemed to open the flood gates for similar events all over town. In fact the very next similar event was at the Lenzo Charro and went on for a full day.

All of this is part of a more general problem of venues in Ajijic ignoring their surroundings and neighbors and making late night rackets more and more. For example, the continuing problems with blaring disco at Plaza Bugambillias and also with several "restaurants" in residential neighborhoods that confuse loud with good.

These noise for profit promoters will go where they see the community won't stand up for itself. They can appear next door to YOUR home literally overnight. We have the choice as a community to either stand by and let this problem continue to grow until people start leaving, or we have the choice to come together and demand that it is put under control.

You make the call for yourself. I've made mine.

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Please don't expect small town folk to go toe to toe with Mexico City promoters. It isn't fair nor realistic.

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The outsiders are the promoters and the people they truck in. More and more expats are becoming dual citizens and when you have planted your roots , paid your taxes and supported good causes you are no longer an outsider.

I talked to the president of the Charro to warn him of the coming storm. He says what happens is the promoters, once the people are good and liquored up offer to play longer for more money which is gladly handed over by the drunks. He is fine with the laws being enforced and would appreciate it. He says that during these extended events is when the damage is done, fights occur, trash is thrown etc.

He agrees to keep to the four hour rule, usually 8-12, with lowering of sound even more after 11. He has tried to eliminate the speakers, but, is is out of his control and up to the promoters.. It is their feet that have to be held to the fire.

Wow! That is amazing HarryB. You must have the diplomatic and negotiating skills of a God. Don't be surprised if you get a phone call from a President of a very powerful country who is sending a jet to take you to the Middle East! For those who might think I am being sarcastic, I am not - sincere thanks for your effort.

Now it is the politicians turn. Why does Chapala issue permits to illegal restaurant/bars and venues which would not be allowed in Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, and a great many other small towns near those areas? It stinks of corruption, and many legitimate businesses will either resist locating here, or the get rich quick crowd will flock here hoping to get a feast at the trough.

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No one forces the Lenzo Charro to book these events. Period.

Put the responsibility where it belongs.

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wether its called a rave or not, doesnt matter. the point is that loud music played over the decibel limit and outwith legal hours should be brought to the atention of the local authorities to try and regulate it.

if they wont are cant not much else we can do, but at least inform them. as far as cohetes and gas trucks, roosters etc, that is part of mexican life , we live in mexico and have to adjust and accept it.

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thats some good news from harry b, hope all works out well.now just to get the same reaction from wings army, and the couple of other bars in the town to reduce the music to regulated levels.

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Why does Chapala issue permits to illegal restaurant/bars and venues which would not be allowed in Guadalajara, Puerto Vallarta, and a great many other small towns near those areas?

I didn't realize there were so many illegal restaurants/bars in Chapala???LOL

Who is attending these events that they are popular enough to have but causing all this uproar with others. Do the people that attend and want them, outnumber the people who don't.

Whether you are for (enjoying), or against (not enjoying),it lasts the same length of time for either one.

Maybe it's just a numbers game of pro and con. Could you fill the Lienzo Charro stadium with the cons?

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Money talks, and all the expat squeaking does not amount to “enough“ to grease the appropriate wheels.

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The people in Chapala are new in their jobs and do not know what is going on. If no one confronts them it will be business as usual. We need to prepare a list of specific things we want to happen; presented in a calm and courteous way, with assurances that complaints will be made to the federal government if the law isn't enforced. Even better this list of specifics needs to be supported by petitions, which, BTW impress the hell out of them. Petitions can be done on line.

I've stood up to local promoters and I can tell you their attitude is I have a licence. I can do whatever I want. It wasn't until I threatened to bring in the Federales that attitudes changed. If we can get the licencing office to tighten up on licences and arrange for monitoring and enforcement; things will improve vastly. Getting the town council to pass a fine structure for violations as well would be a money maker and deterrent.

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W

The people in Chapala are new in their jobs and do not know what is going on. If no one confronts them it will be business as usual. We need to prepare a list of specific things we want to happen; presented in a calm and courteous way, with assurances that complaints will be made to the federal government if the law isn't enforced. Even better this list of specifics needs to be supported by petitions, which, BTW impress the hell out of them. Petitions can be done on line.

I've stood up to local promoters and I can tell you their attitude is I have a licence. I can do whatever I want. It wasn't until I threatened to bring in the Federales that attitudes changed. If we can get the licencing office to tighten up on licences and arrange for monitoring and enforcement; things will improve vastly. Getting the town council to pass a fine structure for violations as well would be a money maker and deterrent.

Can you gives us an example of which promoters attitude's have changed.. ? As far as I can the same bars have the same music at the same decibel level as they have always had..

Do you really expect us to believe that the Federales are going to come roaring down the Carretera ski masks on, guns at the ready,, shouting.. " Forget the cartels we have a situation in Ajijic.. A few gringos can't sleep" Blocking both ends of the street with their big black trucks...machine guns mounted and at the ready.. As the officer in charge goes in to the bar/eventos SHOUTING "HOLA HOLAAAA.......CAN YOU TURN THE MUSIC DOWN". "thank you"

Not going to happen.

P.S. I am in La Floresta, and do hear the sound from the bull ring, and am a patron of the musical events in Ajijic

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I missed this thread due to the very vague wording in the subject line! Please be more specific in your subject lines!

My favorite topic and cause... the noise problem affecting Ajijic like a plague.

I live near the Lienzo and Plaza Bugambilias and El Barco as well, so the noise never lets up for me, which is why I continue on this mission of mine to help bring peace to the people of Ajijic. As we speak, I hear Plaza B.

I was a professional house band singer throughout the 70s in the SF-Oakland-San Jose area, so I know a little about amplified sound. I am continually shocked at the complete ignorance regarding amplified sound in this area. This is new technology here, everyone spends way too much for their oversized equipment (Mexican amigas tell me that's a "macho" thing), and they think that the only 2 settings on the sound board are "off" and "very loud".

Yes, the volume from the Lienzo was way out of hand, even taking into account that those concerts are very well attended by the local people who love the big time bandas. This is my 8th fiesta season here, and only recently have I noticed that banda concerts were being given at the Lienzo while there were bandas at the packed Fiesta at the same time.

So, I asked my maid about that last year. She said that the people couldn't come up with enough money to hire the big bandas to play in the plaza so someone (I'm not clear on who) has organized extra banda concerts during the fiesta, using the standard business model - charging admission.

I speak passable espanol and all my neighbors know I'm on the case of the noise - which, to be fair, was produced equally by the gringo rock bands at El Barco until a little over a year ago, when El B. made changes due to pressure from Chapala stemming from pressure from the neighbors.

It entered my mind to ask around if the bandas at the Lienzo had always been this loud - and how was it 10, 15, 20 years ago? The answer was that it is definitely louder now, and yes, all the neighbors (Mexicans, of course) agreed that it was too loud, too much, and that the drunken (drugged?) announcer guys were totally obnoxious blathering/screaming into the mikes at 1 am. Yes, it does really bug the people that have to get up to go to work and school, although I guess the young adults who attend the concerts manage to slog through it.

I've noticed what seems to me to be a reduction of quality of the banda music at these events compared to 8 years ago when I came here and actually liked the bandas, but especially their TV videos which sound a lot better than live - due to sound engineering issues, of course. The bandas now seem hyper-manic, yes sort of rave-like, very up tempo all the time, not much in the way of dynamics or romance anymore. The quality of the music has gone down, sadly.

As I have stated before, virtually no one around here knows how to run sound, even at a bar! That's what shocks me. No one here understands the concept of playing at an appropriate level for the venue you are in. Never mind decibels. You'd think that would be self evident, but, no! Some bandas are famous and play at larger venues where a louder volume would be OK. Then, they come here and don't bother to change their settings. You'd think people would know not to play at theatre/stadium DB levels in a bar or a small lienzo, but they do that here, due to lack of technical experience and the knowledge of what to listen for in the first place.

But, that lack of experience is what is killing the neighbors with excessive volume. No one here grasps the basic laws of sound that the louder it is, the farther it travels, and that the neighbors can hear up to 80-90% of the DB level inside their/our houses!

Just to be Fair and Balanced - the gringo rock bands are guilty of the same thing, except that they have never been famous to play large venues. El Barco conducted a Sonic Reign of Terror for 4 solid years - 2010-2014 - featuring seemingly the worst and loudest groups from Guadalajara along with...the gringos. 4 nights a week!

The Loud Boys played a private party in this area on Nov. 30, as if the Fiesta wasn't enough. In a private home, they are even closer to the neighbors houses, so they were unbearable, too. Better than before with the new personnel, but still WAY TOO LOUD. Guys, remember, you are playing Out Doors in an environment constructed of bricks and concrete which only serves to amplify the sound even more. Mexican acoustics are not the same as sound-proofed club in the USA.

I continue to be meeting people in the community regarding the noise issues, but prefer not to spill all the beans on this web board. Besides, when I try to talk about the noise problem to the gringos, they always come up with "cohetes...bla, bla, bla..." which are a very minor issue, unlike the ongoing bar noise. I'd rather have cohetes every day of the year than a loud bar nearby!

Gringos alone cannot band together and expect any movement on this issue. It takes a group of Mexicans to make a dent with Chapala, and it helps greatly if you can speak Spanish to get a rapport with your neighbors and hash out a strategy. Trust me, the neighbors of ALL the loud venues are sick and tired of the noise! It is getting worse every year!

At least the fiesta banda madness comes only a couple times a year - at the San Andres Fiesta and at Carnaval.

Here is how the better bandas sounded when I came here:

http://ajijicnews.com/pages/banda2

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I think the promoters of these events and the people they are busing in here know fully well just how loud they are and I rather doubt you are going to "reform" them. But I'm glad to see a number of you enlightening the unaffected as to the fact this situation is relatively new and escalated to the point of excruciatingly loud and frequent very quickly.

I'll wager they are here because other places won't tolerate this and we need to deal with it in the same way. Namely expect that our muncipio will stringently enforce the Mexican-passed noise and nuisance laws. I'll also wager that if this is done, they will depart for other places that let them get away with it.

What is absolutely certain is that if nothing is done to put a stop to this, it will continue to escalate.

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My wife and I frequently attend events in private salons here in SLP and the DJs and live bands play at excessive volume except while the dinner is being served and the toasts to the new couple and many times it is so loud you have to scream at the tables to be heard. Only one wedding reception event we attended had the live band playing at levels you could talk to each other comfortably until 1 AM when they started playing very loud as all the younger attendees were up dancing. This habit really stiffles the crowd communicating with friends and family and enjoying the events IMO. I see many people outside talking to each other, not in the salon. Also the habit of letting 4 or 5 year olds hopped up on sugar from the candy bar after dinner running around all over the salón chasing each other and people tripping over them is common at these events.

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EZPZ has the right approach:

“Gringos alone cannot band together and expect any movement on this issue. It takes a group of Mexicans to make a dent with Chapala, and it helps greatly if you can speak Spanish to get a rapport with your neighbors and hash out a strategy.“

A confrontational, purely expat approach from the usual Ajijic crowd will be, at best, met with platitudes and smiles with promises to look into the matter. In a worst case scenario, the promoters are informed about the complainants and somebody gets hurt or worse. There is a tradition of “vengaza“ which could apply if those who profit heavily should fear that their profits are threatened.

Pay attention to EZPZ‘s advice. To do otherwise might just cause a backlash of even more noise, until the last expat has departed.

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I happen to know someone who a couple of years ago pressed a case for noise abatement coming from near the Centro Laguna Mall. He was tapped on the shoulder in that mall by a Mexican male who showed him copies of his and his wife's passports. "

We know who you are and what vehicle you drive. Stop the complaints." He was finally able to sell his house and they have returned NOB. What RV said can and does happen.

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I agree EZPZ's advice that this must be very much a joint effort is correct. I'm simply pointing out that you aren't going to "reform" the excessive sound of these events by teaching them how to use sound equipment properly. They could care less if it is too loud and they could care less about the neighbors. This is all about using the community to make a buck and it will go on and continue to escalate until the community puts a stop to it.

Let's remember it was Mexicans who recognized this problem and passed the sound control laws in the first place. We need to tap into that sentiment and use it to motivate local government to enforce their own laws.

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Let's remember it was Mexicans who recognized this problem and passed the sound control laws in the first place. We need to tap into that sentiment and use it to motivate local government to enforce their own laws.

This sentiment was not because that some eggheads think that Mexico City should be a quieter place. It was because of the alarming data, increasingly coming in, that noise pollution brings with serious health risks, especially for the young, the elderly and the poor. It is also a serious risk to urban wildlife, even disturbing the fisheries and sea mammals such as whales. Don't focus on what WHO calls the "annoyance" factor, which is just one facet of the whole problem.

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Today I talked to a few more people, mostly Mexicans, and found complete agreement that the noise is too loud! One Mexican shop owner actually took a vacation to get away from it!

My maid was just here and said that these shows at the Lienzo are promoted by people with $$ from Joco, and that people from there come here too, presumably because of the big name bandas. This area just can't handle that! Ajijic is a pueblito, a small town. Large concerts need to be held in large venues in more populated areas and away from residential areas, but no one seems to be clear on this yet. She said it would be good to have the shows earlier and shorter, like 5-10pm, nada mas! I was not clear on if these promoters were actually invited to put on these shows here in Ajijic, or if they are just plain greedy people.

I actually have made a small inroad in the Plaza B situation by chatting with the bar business owners about their sound situation. But, other neighbors have made their own complaints to them as well as Chapala, independent of me. We are still waiting to see how it all plays out.

Chapala needs to be informed of the grand error of having such big and loud shows in a pueblito. The ignorance of sound issues is at all levels, otherwise, these, and other silly permisos (like for rock concerts) would not even be issued in the first place.

But, obviously, the poop has finally hit the fan and it seems there is a critical mass of people who want the noise abated permanently. It is especially a problem in the "Noisy Zone" "la Zona del Ruido" bordered by El Barco, Plaza B., the Lienzo, and sometimes La Bodega and Restaurant #4 as well - with a small evento place in the middle, very near my house! As we speak, that place just started up something with some guy screaming into the mike and a very enthusiastic audience of kids applauding. But that place is about the size of my house and yard, no need for all the amplification! Overall, they have been better and usually finish early because that place mostly caters to kid's parties.

Maybe now you can see why I stay on this case! We can all work together to find and implement solutions. Chapala needs to be overwhelmed with complaints from the whole town regarding these matters!

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2:25 am.

Probably most of you can relax now that the Fiesta is over. However, the struggle continues when you live near a noisy bar.

Tonight, Plaza Bugambilia is hosting a very loud party with a DJ on their outdoor terrace on the 3rd floor above the cine. I called Chapala after 2, and the very inexperienced person who answered the phone (a man) actually gave me the # of the Ajijic Delegacion and told me to call them. Well, no one answered - they do not have a "police department" there - I found that out during the El Barco noisy era. I called back to Chapala and their line just keeps being busy. Isn't that comforting to know that you can call the police here and get a busy signal???

I'm politely refraining from saying how I really feel about all this on this web board. But, this trend towards more and more and louder and louder noise will simply make Ajijic unlivable if it continues.

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Give me the date and time you called the police and got no answer. I'll take it to the chief. I'm ready to proceed on the noise law, but, I can't complain for other people. If your next door neighbor has a party and violates the law You have to complain. I can assist, but, I am not the aggrieved party.

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Harry, you can see on my post that I started it around 2:25a.m. Sunday morning Nov. 6.

After I called, I did hear the noise go down for a few minutes but it started up again and went until 3:45. I have read that in the spirit of increasing "turismo" they will extend the time of the permit to a later hour if they get paid more money. Presumably, some one would have to be there to accept that payment, so I think that's what happened.

In other words, instead of the police mitigating the situation and shutting it down at 2, they accept more money to enable the noise go even later. Think long and hard about that!

Remember, this was not a conflict with a next door neighbor, it is a conflict with a business with a license. I definitely will be talking to neighbors about this. The problem that I've had with that so far is that all the neighbors work and can't leave their jobs during the day to visit Chapala. Someone suggested that a neighbors' group invite the delegado and/or the jefe de licensias - to a meeting in the evening in someone's home. What do you think of that?

I don't personally know all the neighbors. I talk mostly to those next door and they talk to the others - it goes like a chain email. They all know each other.

I am also appalled that the flunky who answered the phone at Chapala told me to call the "police" in Ajijic at 766-1760. He is either totally incompetent, lying to me, or trying to brush me off. I tried calling a few more times and the line was always busy, presumably with other people complaining about the noise. Or maybe he left the phone off the hook?? I finally got through again a little later, and I told him that was the Delegacion # and that they don't have police there - plus they didn't answer anyway - but the guy had nothing to say.

This smells very rotten to me - that this new govt. is handing out permits like candy while ignoring the right of the neighbors to have peace in their/our homes. Certain bar owners here have treated the neighbors with disregard if not outright contempt.

Those presiding over these matters in the govt., themselves, need to learn the basic scientific laws of sound so that they will understand that none of this goes down well in a small town. There is not enough space for a venue large enough to accommodate such large and/or loud events. There are enough people living close to every single evento space or bar here to make it unfeasible Even the traditional fiesta noise needs to be brought down according to the general consensus of the people in the village. In other words, it's impossible to have these eventos or loud bars without seriously bothering the neighbors. Where I live, we have THREE noisy places nearby so it is unbearable. We are all burnt out on this.

There are soundproofed venues that could and should have the evento business, like Club Exotica, which I understand does not create a problem. The existence of soundproofing could/should be a factor in getting a permit to make noise.

Two recent "rock festivals" serve as an example of what not to do and why they should never have had a permit in the first place. One was the 12-hour rock "festival" at Restaurante #4 on June 21, Summer Solstice. A previous thread details that. Bottom line: the business wildly mis-projected and lost money. Almost no one came. The event was a total failure. But the neighbors had to suffer through all the noise anyway!

The other was just before Fiestas Patrias at the Lienzo - outside, not inside. I received a FB ad about it stating that there were 4 groups playing starting at 4. At first it wasn't too bad. I went over there around sunset to see what was happening, expecting it to be over soon. But they told me there were still 4 more groups to play and they were still taking the 40-peso admission. I saw only around 20 young people standing around just staring at a mediocre group that was playing. They did not look like they were having any fun!

But, like the #4 evento, they saved the worst and the loudest for last, so after 7 hours of groups playing (11 hours in the case if #4), the neighbors were treated to a climactic finale of a horrible and very loud punk rock group!!! I never imagined in my wildest dreams that I would be forced to listen to this kind of crap in Mexico!! I have acculturated well to Mexico, but I am aghast that the very worst of USA music has drifted down here somehow - rock, rap, techno, and punk. It's imperative that the Mexicans in charge of these matters understand that all of these styles of loud music are played INSIDE SOUND-PROOFED VENUES LOCATED IN BUSINESS DISTRICTS IN BIG CITIES OR FAR OUT IN THE COUNTRY WHERE NO NEIGHBORS LIVE NEARBY!!!

In both cases above, the events were total flops, but the neighbors had to suffer through it!! This is what has to stop!

I can explain a little better about the basic operative laws and principles of sound and sound amplification due to my experience. Any possibility that I could go with you to Chapala regarding all this? I'm advocating mostly for my own neighborhood, but I surely do see that this is a widespread, overall problem in Ajijic.

I copied the following from Chillin's other post. I wish we could get this translated into Spanish!

COMMISSION FOR ENVIRONMENTAL COOPERATION THREE COUNTRIES WORKING TOGETHER TO PROTECT OUR SHARED ENVIRONMENT

The health impacts of environmental noise are a growing concern among both the

general public and policy-makers in Europe. This publication was prepared by ex-

perts in working groups convened by the WHO Regional Office for Europe to pro-

vide technical support to policy-makers and their advisers in the quantitative risk as-

sessment of environmental noise, using evidence and data available in Europe.

The chapters contain the summary of synthesized reviews of evidence on the relationship

between environmental noise and specific health effects, including cardiovascular

disease, cognitive impairment, sleep disturbance and tinnitus. A chapter on annoy-

ance is also included.

For each outcome, the environmental burden of disease methodology, based on exposure–response relationship, exposure distribution,

background prevalence of disease and disability weights of the outcome, is applied

to calculate the burden of disease in terms of disability-adjusted life-years (DALYs).

With conservative assumptions applied to the calculation methods, it is estimated

that DALYs lost from environmental noise are 61 000 years for ischaemic heart dis-

ease, 45 000 years for cognitive impairment of children, 903 000 years for sleep

disturbance, 22 000 years for tinnitus and 654 000 years for annoyance in the Eu-

ropean Union Member States and other western European countries.

These results indicate that at least one million healthy life years are lost every year from traffic-related noise in the western part of Europe. Sleep disturbance and annoyance, most-ly related to road traffic noise, comprise the main burden of environmental noise.

Owing to a lack of exposure data in south-east Europe and the newly independent

states, it was not possible to estimate the disease burden in the whole of the WHO

European Region. The procedure of estimating burdens related to environmental

noise exposure presented here can be used by international, national and local au-

thorities as long as the assumptions, limitations and uncertainties reported in this

publication are carefully taken into account.

Harry, TX for all you do! Please be in touch!

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The Number 4 event was a total failure but they did have a permit and even so there was some confusion about it closing the street. It was a special weekend and people could not get down to La Nueva Posada. The neighbors were not informed of the event in order to move vehicles. A prudent businessperson would have closed up the outdoor portion early in the afternoon as it was evident attendance was not going to pick up. The visual of lack of attendance caused some potential attendees to leave. You could see them on the perifery discussing whether to come down into the table area. Most decided not to and that was just the time I watched.

As neighbor we generally have no complaints about Number 4, or Cuarto as it wants to be known these days. Every once in a while the Tall boys play and every now and again some loud band from somewhere rolls in there. The usual entertainment Gaby provides is pleasant enough although we simply cannot understand why people go there for meals with the music loud enough to come to us across the street. We have learned to ignore the music. Thank heavens it is not rock and roll.

For me the main noise element is when the cliente leave and their noisy yelling up and down the street. It disruptes my brain ignoring the music. You would not believe the private topics I get to hear about. It never occurs to people that their voices are carrying into the night and right in my window. Money issues, Sex, back stabbing, hatred, love are all discussed on the dark street.

I wouldn't include Number 4, Cuarto, in the mix as a regular offender.

I really wish the owners and their staff would at least park down on 16th of Septiembre and walk the half block up to the restaurant when they are in there all day. The business employees taking the best street parking is very inconsiderate of their neighbors and their clientele.

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Amusing thread.

Although, I agree that the loud music is out of control in some of the venues (whatever they are called) I also think that constant barking like a dog at the local authorities will not win any friends and changes . This is a corupted society where money talks and few barking ex-pats are not going to change it. On the contrary. I would be very careful how loud I bark.

Forget the laws...make friends...buy beer for everybody and join the party. Be a diplomat not a combat soldier. You will see big difference in your accomplishments.

You are not in Kansas any more.

My opinion only ...probably not yours.

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