Monessen Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 No, Computer Guy. Not a "gaffe". The STUDENTS found it offensive. I did too after I read it but I hadn't read it before hand to even present it in a negative way. The STUDENTS presented it to me. You personally can use "ain't" or "youse" or any other form of English around me. Please don't use it around my students who are learning to use the English language properly. HUD, I don't care how well the Guadalajara Reporter management sleeps or doesn't sleep. I'm stating a fact. I don't expect them to miss my 238 pesos a week. You are right. I agree with you. They won't change--but I will. I try to be very sensitive to my Mexican friends and my Mexican students when it comes to culture, religion and politics. I don't have a lot of answers but I certainly do not want them to feel badly about what one of my fellow "gringos" says / writes. Just because I don't understand something about Mexican culture or religion (or my own culture either for that matter) doesn't mean I should criticize it or demean it. Life is too darn short to be causing folks grief based on anyone's personal opinions. My opinions are worth very little anyway--as most of the posters here probably already know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 And yet you are the one that posted "Both the article on the Virgin of Zapopan and the "freak" headline were offensive to me." Now you're blaming it on your students? And with your sensitivity to your Mexican friends, Monessen, if I follow your logic here, you better pull out every newspaper in every town and city in every country, and every blog around the world, because you just made yourself responsible for everything everyone else says. Further, you should get yourself some new students, because you make them sound like they ain't got no brains of their own. That title was offensive?! Incredible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monessen Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Computer Guy, thanks for your opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Sorry, you did say you put your armour on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Berca Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Time for a favorite quote. " Just because you are offended, does not mean that you are right," Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hud Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Reminds me of ":my way, or the highway" ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezpz Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 I, too, was a little put off by that Letter to the Editor, however free the writer may have been to say it. Many who cling to 3D "science" as the Real Truth of Everything are not aware that it is already outdated and useful only in what is now seen as a limited context. Quantum physics, which posits that Everything is Made of Energy is today's standard. Quantum physics allows for the existence of many more dimensions as well as units of energy vibrating and resonating throughout the universe at an extraordinary range of frequencies, most of which are not perceptible to human beings on Planet Earth. That could allow for the actual existence of "miracles" or "UFOs" or "aliens" or other para-normal phenomena. Russia has done much more research on such matters, and the western countries actually lag far behind. So, don't let your pre-existing and self-limiting "beliefs" about "science" blind you to the possibilities that you may have never even imagined, let alone studied or researched...or experienced. Mexico still has a very strong pre-hispanic, indigenous influence woven into all aspects of the culture, which I have been very drawn to ever since I came here. I was raised Catholic, but it was obvious to me that the church here was a lot more FUN with the festive pre-hispanic influence. All the various "Virgins" are really an aspect of Saint Mary, or Our Lady (and up north, how many churches have you seen that are called "Our Lady of this or that?). Catholics revere her as the mother of Jesus, but in Mexico, there was also a virgin goddess named Tonantzin, which many Mexicans still revere as any of the various local Virgins, which accounts for the huge and thrilling presence of many Danzantes at all her fiestas and processions - and don't forget we have the Virgin of the Rosary Fiesta and Procession coming up on Oct. 31, which has absolutely nothing to do with Halloween! Fiestas such the Queen of the Lake - as well as all the patron saint fiestas, are actually public gratitude ceremonies. Feeling gratitude helps bring you more blessings and joy into your life, and sharing that publicly multiplies the effect greatly. Every Virgin Fiesta started out as gratitude for some real event that was seen as a huge blessing. These fiestas actually are beautiful rituals which connect people to each other, to Mother Earth and the Great Spirit, which is very beneficial to the human spirit, and is what is greatly missing in the over-intellectualized, and emotionally and spiritually constipated Northern Cultures. I have a lot of fotos and videos of the fabulous Virgin of Zapopan processions but they are not online at this time, sorry. Regardless of words used, I was very glad to see we now have an ecological minded and well educated new delegado in Rafael Escamilla. I wish him the best and I think he will be very good for the community. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ezpz Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Hey, I just did find where I posted lots of fiesta and procession fotos and videos in a large group together. I was just learning how to create "albums" of fotos at that time, since my other huge foto/video page on webshots.com had been dismantled. I was not able to separate out all these fiestas at the time of the creation, so there is a lot there! But, enjoy! All the short little videos are at the end, You can see some of the very exciting Virgin of Zapopan procession in Chapala, rarely attended by any gringos, sadly. https://www.flickr.com/photos/micki_w/albums/72157636361201756/page6 hope the link works! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
suegarn Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 I would like to know how many of the posters on this thread that were offended or upset by the Guadalajara Reporter this week, ACTUALLY CONTACTED the editor or wrote a letter to the newspaper to voice their concern, instead of voicing them on a third-party webboard? That is the proper location to voice your concerns regarding these issues! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Al Berca Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 Yup. We will find out tomorrow afternoon who actually did something constructive with their complaints. Can't wait. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyken Posted October 22, 2015 Report Share Posted October 22, 2015 I'm reminded of the sharp differences of opinion that were expressed following the Charlie Hebdo incident in Paris. Some people do feel that religious beliefs, including believing that the level of Lake Chapala is determined by a mythical being who can be appealed to in worship and prayer, should be immune from criticism, because they are part of the culture and many people derive comfort from them. Others believe that it would be better for people to understand that the level of the lake is actually determined by the amount of rain that falls in the watershed and by management of the watershed by humans, which they can change. The writer of the letter in the Reporter presented the latter view, which is surely both valid and much more effective for preserving the lake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 A nice, reasoned response, Ken. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lexy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Ken--I appreciate your sound observation. However, in this matter, I don't recall that most--if any--posters took issue with the letter writer for stating factually that the level of Lake Chapala is determined by the amount of rain that falls and the management (or mismanagement) of the watershed by human beings. Still, it doesn't seem that the letter writer's intention was merely to remind us that the scientific point of view makes more sense and is more effective than "a cute, local folk tale" that believes the Virgin of Zapopan is responsible for increasing the lake's level. He should have left it at that. But he goes on to the point of not making too much sense himself. He complains that the Catholic Church actively encourages and promotes this myth. He finds it "sad" that educated Mexican citizens whom he's met subscribe to the myth. And, finally, he finds it "reprehensible for the Catholic hierarchy to support and encourage them." What does he expect from the Catholic hierarchy: science lessons? Lexy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monessen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 This may be a bit tangential to the present thread but I think that it speaks to the approach of the letter writer and some posters on this thread. Forgive me if I seem to be off the track of the thread. This is the second largest Catholic country in the world. I know that many of you will disagree but I personally find a lot of anti-Catholicism here in many of the members of the foreign community.It is one thing to state facts--scientific or otherwise--and quite another to denigrate those who believe something that you don't. Calling beliefs "fairy tales", etc. is just another form of making fun of someone's beliefs--not stating facts. Catholics don't knock on your door to proselytize you nor do they mock--yes mock--your beliefs. Catholics run hospitals, nursing homes, educational institutes open to all in the world. On the university level the student bodies are made up of mostly non-Catholic, agnostic and atheist patients and students who never become Catholic due to that educational system. Among my friends I can't identify one practicing Catholic who went to Georgetown University in Washington. Catholics have one of the largest charities in the world and most of the recipients are not Catholic. People like Georges Lemaitre (Belgian Catholic priest and professor who brought you the "Big Bang theory"), Roger Bacon (13th century friar who championed the scientific method), Giovanni Borelli (Father of modern biomechanics), Albert Claude (Nobel Prize in medicine), Gregor Mendel (Father of genetics), Louis Pasteur (Father of bacteriology), etc., etc. Let's not even mention the contributions to art and architecture. The same could be said of every other religious system--religion can bring out the best in the arts and sciences and has always spurred people on to ask the big questions and to search for the answers. This search may have ended in a different system of thought or belief. So you do not believe what others believe. Big deal,. Why do you have to mock others and make fun of them? Does it make you feel superior to them as persons? I never did get it. I still don't. It is, in my opinion, these arrogant, mocking acts and words that continue to lead to anger and hurt feelings and do nothing to advance any belief system--scientific or religious. My question remains. Why are some people so mean to others? By the way--I am into science but I definitely respect others. My background is psychology--like some others I know here--and I never was taught nor did I ever subject patients to ridiculing their belief systems. Challenge respectfully, yes. Ridicule and mock their beliefs--never. How therapeutic is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcscats Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 Why Hostility???? Because the Catholic church tries to change laws and prevent women from having Abortions. Because the Catholic church tries to change laws about birth control. Because the Ex head of the Catholic church in Jalisco refered to gay sex as "making me want to vomit". How about the Catholic Irish Orphanage problems? How about the problem of priests and children? We referred to Father Chester in my high school as Father Molester before he was sent probably somewhere else. You gave examples of wonderful things and I was one of those non Catholics who went to a Jesuit High school and enjoyed the experience. I got a great education and I am thankful but above are a few examples of why folks might have a level of hostility to the church especially if we don't belong. It doesn't fix anything to be nasty and hostile and I will agree with that and we do behave that way sometimes. Human nature I guess. BUT I can understand why some people are very upset about The Catholic church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monessen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I hear you lcscats. The problem is that you firmly believe in abortion while others do not. Are you saying that those who do not cannot work to attain their anti-abortion goals? Isn't that what pro-abortionists did to attain Roe vs. Wade? Why was that ok to work for but it isn't ok for those who oppose it to work for their beliefs? If by birth control laws you mean that some religious institutions want to maintain their beliefs within their institutions then why would you prohibit them from following their beliefs? Birth control is easily accessible anywhere that I have been--even in Africa. So the former Archbishop of Guadalajara and loose cannon exhibited a horrible example of non-Christian behavior. Is that a reason to paint the whole institution with brushes like him? The Catholic orphanage system in Ireland was a sad and anti-Christian response to that society's problems--but because that evil was perpetrated we can somehow write off a whole group? Let's do the American school system next because I know of many who were sexually abused by public school teachers--one of whom committed suicide on his 30th birthday. I can also name lots of teachers who were dedicated to their profession and never sexually exploited anyone. There are orphanages here at Lakeside run by Catholic sisters who do their best to help the charges under their care. Do we ignore contributions like theirs because of evils that take place in religious AND secular communities? Problem priests and children? So all priests must be bad because some priests were? We can write off the lives of folks who really do try to live out their beliefs because some monsters didn't? Should we see that as a Catholic problem or a secular and Protestant and Jewish problem? Look up Church Mutual Insurance and insurance companies that cover public educational institutions and see what a human problem this is everywhere. Human trafficking for sex and all those other moral evils. As my friend used to say; "Any stick to beat the church". The point is I don't hold any institution--church, government, secular community, educational system--to stand for the people who do put their noses to the grindstone and do a good job in spite of the bad apples in their ranks. Sadly I expect to find evil in every human institution in spite of its goals. To overlook the good and only focus on the bad is not a good or healthy approach. Ask me about my service in a large State mental hospital in Pennsylvania in the 1970s. The way some doctors and some nurses treated patients in spite of their professional ethics...hmmm. Now those can be examples of professional evil but I certainly don't take any credit away from the majority of professionals who did do their jobs in a kind and therapeutic way. Can't we be understanding of each other and not hold whole institutions responsible for bad human behavior? What about the U.S. and slavery? Do we give the whole country a black eye because of that institutional evil? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcscats Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I think we both covered it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I'm an agnostic,but the first thing I did when my wife Maria Guadalupe moved in with me was to hang up her picture of the Virgen de Guadalupe in our bedroom. And yes the Catholic church doesn't have a great track record in Mexico, but if you want to piss off a Mexican say something disrespectful about La Virgen.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gypsyken Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 I must point out regarding Monessen's post that science and religion are not alternative "belief systems." Science produces information supported by evidence from observations made by humans directly or by means of instruments that humans devise. Religion advocates beliefs that are not supported by, or are even contrary to, evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ComputerGuy Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 ... and I'd like to point out that this is not the place to be airing our opinions about religion and women's rights. These are what they call "hot-button", and have been since before I discussed them, at length, in University. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bournemouth Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 If the beliefs that caused the OP give people who hold them comfort, who am I or who are we to deny them that comfort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monessen Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 ComputerGuy, you are 100% right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lcscats Posted October 23, 2015 Report Share Posted October 23, 2015 It did stay civilized which was nice for a change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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