Temporary Worker program needed for the USA

[Mainecoons]

I'm sure that some do.

You guys are something else.

Good luck trying to find Americans willing to do back breaking work harvesting crops,work at Tyson chicken factories,washing dishes in restaurants,landscaping etc.etc.

Half of the cooks in fancy Manhattan restaurants are from Puebla.

Thirty+years working construction taught me that Mexican workers have very good work ethics.

Face the facts,there are a lot of jobs Americans simply aren't willing to do.

Giltner 68, te ves mas bonito calladito.

I must say your attitude about this, given the impression of your political leanings your other posts have given me, is surprising. Why would you support policies in any country that hurt working people let alone in your country of origin?

Also, you keep repeating that fiction, thoroughly debunked by hard data, that most of these immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do. That simply is not true as a number of us have tried to point out to you.

Tearing down America by gutting its working class to give the greedy cheap, pliable labor isn't going to be good for Mexico in the long run.

[valbogyo]

Would American workers flock to Agricultural jobs if the pay was higher, and benefits were included? I would not be so sure. (I am pretty sure Canadians would not) I think we need those eager foreign guest workers.

A lot of things are changing in Canada, at the moment. I am not sure of the stats now, but several years ago we (Western Provinces) had a labour shortage, specifically in the manual labour arena. Let me tell you, I have spoken to a number of young guys on welfare, wondering why they will not go and pick fruit. You can make, easily, 100 bucks a day with a little practice picking cherries for example.

No way. They find that work, or working for the Fast Food industry humiliating. They would rather eat at the soup kitchen, and collect their check each month. (Somehow that is not humiliating),

Our parents and grandparents lived through the depression. I'll bet many of us on this board were raised with similar values.

In the 70s, when it was so hard to get a job due to the huge number of baby boomers entering the market..... my teenaged friends and I started a house cleaning business! I would not turn down any opportunity to work. My brothers and I picked fruit, had newspaper routes, baby sat. Now..... tell me about your Grand Kids? How many of them have jobs at 11 or 12 years old? I had a niece who needed some cash to go to a concert and I said she could clean my house for me and I would pay her. She though I must be insane. I am sure if you took a poll..... many young people would rather starve to death then clean someone else's toilet.

I relate to the migrant workers more than I do the unemployed youth I know in Canada. I am betting that you could pay 15dollars an hour for agricultural workers and you still have few people show up..... and they could not pick fruit anyway because that would require putting down their cell phone.

[Mainecoons]

Once again, agricultural jobs account for FOUR PERCENT of the jobs taken by immigrants. That's a non issue in this discussion and most certainly could be addressed as it used to be with a guest worker program.

However, remember that when that was the case, the people were grossly underpaid and abused. That would have to be fixed.

The U.S. used to be a shining example to the world of working class prosperity. That prosperity is rapidly being destroyed as a result of runaway immigration that is flooding job markets and "free" trade that allows other countries to sell at will sweatshop goods in the U.S. while they play all sorts of games to keep American goods out.

There's a reason for what is going on in the presidential contest up there and it is simply that Joe Sixpack is recognizing that he's been screwed by the ruling class and corporatist crony system.

[AlanMexicali]

Once again, agricultural jobs account for FOUR PERCENT of the jobs taken by immigrants.

The complete statistics place it at above 30%, not 4%. See the graphs on the page of this partial quote.

http://www.ers.usda.gov/topics/farm-economy/farm-labor/background.aspx

"The share of hired crop farmworkers who were not legally authorized to work in the U.S. grew from roughly 15 percent in 1989-91 to almost 55 percent in 1999-2001. Since then it has fluctuated around 50 percent. Since 2001, the share who are citizens has increased from about 21 percent to about 33 percent, while the share who hold green cards or other forms of work authorization has fallen from about 25 percent to about 19 percent.

Country of Origin

The share of hired crop farmworkers who were born in the United States or Puerto Rico fell from about 40 percent in 1989-91 to a low of about 18 percent in 1998-2000, while the share born in Mexico rose from 54 percent to 79 percent over the same interval. Since then, the U.S. and Puerto Rican share has rebounded to about 29 percent and the Mexican share has fallen to about 68 percent. The share from Central America and other countries has never exceeded 6 percent.

Since 2000, however, Hispanic workers have also been employed in increasing numbers in the dairy industry (not covered by NAWS). One study found that 75 percent of Hispanic dairy workers in New York State were from Mexico, 24 percent were from Guatemala, and one percent were from Honduras."

[CHILLIN]

I ran across some numbers the other day which surprised me. These are very large averages for numbers, but nevertheless - average wage across Canada $23 per hour, average wage U.S.A. $10 per hour. Field workers in British Columbia make about $14 per hour, and I think they have to pay a share of food, accomodation is free, medical is free, return air ticket is included.

[Mainecoons]

Alan those percentages are measured as a percent of the total agricultural employment. That's not the same as the percentage of immigrants in total employed in all jobs in the U.S.

What those numbers say is that one third of the agricultural workers are hispanic

Apples and oranges.

I'm surprised that the figures aren't higher when it comes to agriculture but that seems to support the data that only about 4 percent of the total group of immigrants are employed in agriculture.

If you view those figures in context, it appears that two thirds of the jobs are taken by Americans. So much for the idea they won't work in agriculture.

They won't work at slave labor jobs for slave labor pay, nor should they. Nor should American agribusiness be allowed to exploit and abuse farm labor regardless of where they come from.

And they have done so for decades.

[Mainecoons]

I ran across some numbers the other day which surprised me. These are very large averages for numbers, but nevertheless - average wage across Canada $23 per hour, average wage U.S.A. $10 per hour. Field workers in British Columbia make about $14 per hour, and I think they have to pay a share of food, accomodation is free, medical is free, return air ticket is included.

Doesn't surprise me at all. In a capitalistic economy, even an imperfect one, the cost of labor is determined by supply and demand just like any other commodity. Flood the country with unskilled and semi-skilled labor and the wages for same will and have stagnated or gone down.

[cbviajero]

I'm sure that some do.

You guys are something else.

Good luck trying to find Americans willing to do back breaking work harvesting crops,work at Tyson chicken factories,washing dishes in restaurants,landscaping etc.etc.

Half of the cooks in fancy Manhattan restaurants are from Puebla.

Thirty+years working construction taught me that Mexican workers have very good work ethics.

Face the facts,there are a lot of jobs Americans simply aren't willing to do.

Giltner 68, te ves mas bonito calladito.

I must say your attitude about this, given the impression of your political leanings your other posts have given me, is surprising. Why would you support policies in any country that hurt working people let alone in your country of origin?

Also, you keep repeating that fiction, thoroughly debunked by hard data, that most of these immigrants are doing work that Americans won't do. That simply is not true as a number of us have tried to point out to you.

Tearing down America by gutting its working class to give the greedy cheap, pliable labor isn't going to be good for Mexico in the long run.

At least we can disagree agreeably.

[Mainecoons]

Of course we can and I'd be interested in your response as to why you feel it is a good thing to flood the U.S. with cheap pliable labor so big business and the rich can make out like bandits while the middle class languishes.

[gringal]

Of course we can and I'd be interested in your response as to why you feel it is a good thing to flood the U.S. with cheap pliable labor so big business and the rich can make out like bandits while the middle class languishes.

They aren't there yet, since there have been so many years of prosperity and opportunity until recently, but those whose parents went through the Depression years knew what a desperation economy felt like, and what people would actually do to keep food on the table. Poor Mexicans do know about that. Nobody said they aren't working beyond "nearly can't" to do some of the jobs. If the situation in the U.S. does get worse, we may be surprised how many U.S. citizens will take any job that's out there. As you can guess, I'm not very optimistic about the future of the U.S.A. poorer citizens, for many reasons.

Many of us retirees were fortunate to grow up in an era when it didn't matter what your circumstances were: if you managed to get an education and were willing to work for it, you could prosper. Nowadays, a young person who isn't from wealth will finish college with a huge burden of debt and not the best job prospects.

[cbviajero]

Of course we can and I'd be interested in your response as to why you feel it is a good thing to flood the U.S. with cheap pliable labor so big business and the rich can make out like bandits while the middle class languishes.

I don't feel that it's a good thing,but it's a fact of life.

There are a lot of jobs that most Americans just don't want to do.

I joined the carpenters union when I was 17,worked for the same developer for 15 years,the anti-union movement in the 80s really hurt construction workers and others in different industries.

When the US moved from being a manufacturing country to a service industry country,that is when things started going south for working class Americans in my opinion.

[Mainecoons]

Why is it a fact of life? Immigration policy can be changed.

The numbers and reports don't support your contention that Americans won't do the work. Even Alan's agriculture statistics show that two thirds of the jobs are held by citizens.

If the employers weren't able to exploit the people because of the labor surplus caused by immigration policies that favor them, they would have to and they would employ Americans.

Remember, before this flood started around 1970, Americans were doing the work.

[CHILLIN]

The other hot topic right now, in the U.S. and Canada is the next generation, "the millennials" and how they are getting hammered by the baby boomers and older, for not wanting to work, unless the job offers "empathy". Google "millennials work" to see what I mean. Gringal has already touched on this here, and in past posts. I believe this is real, not just media hype.

Here is just one article:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life/the-hot-button/millennials-want-to-be-rich-have-everything-but-dont-want-to-work-hard-study-finds/article11706115/

[snowyco]

Why is it a fact of life? Immigration policy can be changed.

The numbers and reports don't support your contention that Americans won't do the work. Even Alan's agriculture statistics show that two thirds of the jobs are held by citizens.

If the employers weren't able to exploit the people because of the labor surplus caused by immigration policies that favor them, they would have to and they would employ Americans.

Remember, before this flood started around 1970, Americans were doing the work.

.

"If the employers weren't able to exploit the people because of the labor surplus "

There was no "labor surplus" of manual laborers on the east coast, nor in the Chicago area, nor in Colorado USA's Baby Boomers, Yuppies, Yippies, Hippies, New-Agers, and Millenials simply haven't wanted to do hard physical manual labor for the past 40 years.

"Labor surplus" claims don't fit our businesses experience for manual labor since 1970. My family ran a small paving business, using mostly hand labor, from 1948-1996. Around 1970, the American workforce on the east coast changed, as Americans no longer wanted to do physical manual labor. Every 5 years it became noticeably harder to find American workers willing to hand shovel, dig, sweep, or spread stone.

We forcibly had to down-size from a 50 person company to a 12 person company in the early 1970's due to a shortage of American laborers. ... For people enamored with nostalgia, remember the generation of hippies, yippies, Little Red Book readers, Che followers, and then yuppies + greed-is-good guys, and then New Agers.

The USA definitely changed in the mid-1960's - mid 1980's, as the 100 million Baby Boomer kids, born & raised in relative affluence and comfort became adults.

Boomers born in 1947-1948 became adults in 1967-1968 ... preferring to protest and raise ____ ... rather than do the physical labor that Mainecoons fondly remembers.

The Boomers simply refused to take manual labor jobs, and in the mid 1980's our family paving business had to again downsize to just 4-7 workers.

Between 1970 - 1996, we had to rely on poor hillbillies up out of the coal mines and poor rural southern blacks to take our well-paying jobs, because ordinary Boomer kids hated getting hot, sweaty, and tired by the end of the day.

I personally went back to construction - framing carpentry - in the 2,000's and found exactly the same things. Boomers and Millenials raised in relative affluence and comfort did not want to swing a hammer, run a saw, fire a nail-gun, or schlep plywood.

In Chicago, and on the east coast, and then in Colorado, Americans would NOT do manual labor jobs, if they could find anything else. The manual labor trades shifted heavily to immigrants willing to work hard and eager to make a good salary,

Another key trend affecting manual labor: US Homeowners demanded lower and lower priced construction, driving framing carpentry rates from $4.20 a sq. ft in the 1990's down to $3.00 a sq ft during the Bush-Cheney years.

Again, Americans would not work for the prices that American home buyers were willing to pay ... for basic home construction. The economics of the free market heavily drove typical soft-handed Boomers & Millenials out of manual labor jobs.

So, there's a big difference between nostalgic 70 year old memories and the realities of running construction businesses over the past 6 decades.

The guys doing the hiring & firing and making payroll tell very different stories than retired-folks living comfortably 1,000's of miles away, reminiscing about old times, extrapolating and projecting their pasts onto the present.

This post really fits current US and Mexican reality. The USA needs lots of good, hard-working manual laborers who could be supplied by a good legal temporary worker program that allows fine Mexican manual laborers to have legal cycles of heading north to work a while, and then return home, and then do it again when the US-earned dollars run out.

[bmh]

It seems that people who ran businesses in construction or agriculturea do not agree with the people who did not have to look for laborers.

We could not find US citizens to harvest and the importing of labor..may work for large central valley farms but it does not work for small businesses.

The Napa valley does not have sufficient housing one and affordable housing second for farm workers. and US citizens living there are not about to work at hard breaking work in the fields as a result there is no labor forcé for the temporary Jobs at wineries and as the migra explained to me 80% or more of the temporary workforce in undocumented.

I know they were being nice when they say 80% or more.

There is a huge need for good hard workers and no they do not have to be exploited or paid cheap wages, we paid about most other wineries and still could not find documented workers.

It seems that people who have not run this type of business are quoting from articles and internet sites or talking about knowing someone who had a visa to work a harvvest. Sorry there is not enough US citizens willing to do those Jobs or there are not enough citizens who are the place they need to be to get these Jobs.

[CHILLIN]

A good, legal temporary worker program would mean the worker could bring his or her family, and a pathway to permanent residence. This is simply the compassionate thing to do. Then you have questions of education and healthcare expenses - so it will never happen. The government and employers are effectively holding these families stuck back in Mexico as ransom.

[giltner68]

I have a small book that lays on my desk, The Constitution of the United States, always has always will, it's accompanied by a second volume, the New Testament given to me in 1953. I'm far from a scholar on either, but they guide me and in searching the Constitution I find absolutely no mention of the fact I (we, the US) are in any way obligated to be "compassionate" to folks in another country - no, I didn't miss anything. This absurd idea that we are in some universe, obligated, to do things like this approaches insane. You, the same people who feel this overwhelming compassion responsibility are the same who absolutely oppose our efforts to bring democracy and freedom to peoples in other parts of the world to improve their lives.

So, we shouldn't make things better for people in their own country, but we should make things worse for OUR citizens, the people in our country? - oh, I get it, don't raise everyone to their highest potential, pull everyone down to the lowest level - now I see how this works. Now friends and neighbors this is what happens when you view the world through the lens of politics.

[gringal]

Giltner, some of us are talking about practical realities and some are talking through a political lens. I'm on the side of the practical reality which some of us have pointed out is the real issue: How desperate do U.S. citizens, who have been raised in an era of entitlement attitudes, have to get in order to get sweaty and do jobs that they hate, like the dust bowl refugees did? Add to that, the reluctance of employers to pay a living wage to workers, regardless of whether they are U.S citizens or immigrants. There is a reason that there is such a shocking discrepancy between the haves and the have nots. You need look no further than Walmart and its brethren or the local fast food eatery, which commonly limit their employees' hours to less than the point at which they get benefits. These folks are going nowhere.

The U.S. Constitution was created in an era far different from today, and it had no problem limiting the privileges of citizenship to free, male landowners. In other words, way, way less than half the population.

As far as the New Testament of the Bible is concerned, it was big on caring about the less fortunate but you could probably still sell your daughter for some livestock without getting in trouble with the Rabbi. (I'm not serious there), but it had little to do with the functioning of so-called democracy in the form of laissez fair capitalism. Times have changed. Today is more like the era of the Robber Barons. The lower classes worked until they dropped. Kids worked instead of getting schooled.

Just as a side note, I read Ayn Rand's work as a puppy and thought it was a grand idea. Then I grew up. The problem seems to be with the word "enlightened". LOL.

[cbviajero]

I have a small book that lays on my desk, The Constitution of the United States, always has always will, it's accompanied by a second volume, the New Testament given to me in 1953.

From the New Testament.

Ephesians 4:32

Collosians 3:12

2 Corinthians 1:3-5

1 Peter 3:8

1 John 3:17

Check those out,giltner,and get back to me....

[gringal]

From the New Testament.

Ephesians 4:32

Collosians 3:12

2 Corinthians 1:3-5

1 Peter 3:8

1 John 3:17

Check those out,giltner,and get back to me....

Love it. That about covers it, indeed.

[giltner68]

Do a word scan on the Constitution, the words compassion and compassionate do not appear and word welfare only appears in context of providing the general welfare for it's citizens. In other words, the governing document for America recognizes the betterment of it's legal residents and makes no reference to feeding the world.

Don't suppose you have noticed the US is the most benevolent country in the world today. We take in 20% of the worlds immigrants yet we are only 7% of the world's population. How about any natural disaster anywhere in the world? - US planes are the first on the tarmac with relief. Then there is giving to charity which is considerably more efficient than the gov welfare system. But, you offer good reason to have both books on my desk. One governs my country and one governs my life. As far as "covering it" - I hardly imagine it begins to and you might notice the current waves of immigrants in EU and being imported to the US probably don't subscribe to those verses although that's another conversation, not Temp Workers.

PS: I find it amusing that church and state got mixed into this discussion - when it's convenient.

[cbviajero]

PS: I find it amusing that church and state got mixed into this discussion - when it's convenient.

You brought religion into it,not me.

And I agree,Americans are a compassionate people in general,but our government sure has made a mess of things all over the world for many years.

[giltner68]

No, I only told you what two books define my life, you brought religion into it with verses to justify you position. People that have known me for years know I don't argue religion, I don't question others and I don't allow anyone to question mine.

But, back to a previous post. Ok, let's start with how desperate do U.S. citizens, who have been raised in an era of entitlement attitudes, have to get in order to get sweaty and do jobs that they hate, like the dust bowl refugees did?

First of all I see guys working out in the TX heat every day doing ugly sweaty jobs which, BTW, I do myself when necessary, so at least around here, I reject your assumption. Now, let's pick down to the next part of that statement which is actually the real cause for much of what you decry and it's simple, we have created the "welfare state" and at the moment 94,000,000 working age people don't have to work, or can't find a job due to the lousy economy, but yet they're still eating, they're still living, not starving - and not immigrating I might add. So, how long can you spend other people's money to maintain this disaster before they quit working, they pushback and the whole thing collapses..

Have you noticed the huge success the living wage is providing - the most common symptom is closed restaurants etc? People have some idea all business owners are millionaires and sitting on hoards of money - sorry, not the case, many, if not most, are scratching to make ends meet while fighting the Gov to keep what little they earn while meeting Gov requirements. I eat out regularly because I can afford it, jack up the employment costs which jack up the prices and I'll just eat at home and they lose business, it's simple math. The minimum wage was never meant to be a sustaining career, only a step up to something better.

Dust bowl - let's take a look at this because it's a great example of American strength. In those days did you have rampant crime? Did you see droves of people immigrating to wherever? No, crime was pretty much subdued and people toughed it out, they didn't immigrate to MX, or CA, or back to the EU, they were here and they were working to make it happen. When the wars came did they split for Canada, or MX? - not many, they stayed to fight for their country, so my point is that Americans of all stripes who came here legally and have assimilated are here to stay. So, why the big problem with staying in your own country to make it a better place? - do you see the military age men coming into the EU not staying to support their country? - why, because someone else will feed them, so it is at our southern border, that's not that way it works for any length of time. Are there poor in MX? - sure, no question, but why is the real question, as some authors I've read say, these people are voting with their feet against the policies of their country. I'll reserve my judgment, but I'll stick with my position of the US not being obligated by either law, compassion, sympathy or religion to open our borders without reservation and degrade the "General Welfare" of the legal residents of the country as defined by the Constitution.

[bmh]

Chillin I left the wine business in 2000. At that time we paid the people who came to harvest by the ton . They were divided into teams and each team would be paid for the amount of grapes harvested. We had a system of red and green tags..they would get extra money for green tags..each gondola found without leaves or bad grapes and red tickets for leaves, fighting, throwing baskets over the rows not using the restrooms etc.. . We started at day break and stopped at noon . These guys would make 20 dollars an hour. The tractor drivers made half as much and all were regular employees and received benefits.

I would not say that we expoited the illegals or that the salary was low and still we could not get any US citizens.

No temporary workers visa does not mean wife and kids if they are temporary they will see their wife and kids when they go back.

Benefits and medical for the wife and kids?? How about for the temporary worker.

[giltner68]

Same answer, a lot of potential labor is holed up in the cities because that's where the benefits are. I live in a rural area of TX, I doubt any "city" within 30 miles of me pays any kind of welfare per se, assistance maybe and TX sends out Fed food stamps like they're confetti. But in the real world, the potential labor isn't close to jobs like that.

However, I will cite an example which happened in Austin probably in the late 90's. At that time the INS used to do raids and haul people to the border. So, they swept into Austin restaurants and picked up a sizable number of folks, maybe 200 from kitchens etc. and hauled them south. Now, on the E side of Austin there is a sizable community of welfare beneficiaries, I happen to know because in those days I got involved in hiring for our production unit. So, in central Austin we had 200 jobs open - how many came, not miles, hardly blocks to apply for these jobs? - I'm sure you know the answer.

On another occasion we hired the son of a lady who worked for us and he showed up in $100 shoes, a Tommy Hilfinger shirt and lasted about 2 days before saying he couldn't afford to work for us and besides we expected him to be there on time and work 8 hours. He was well trained by the system NOT to seek work period.

So, a part of me can almost understand why - but another takes me back to my upbringing.