Why do people leave?

[Jeri]

Interesting article that has just been re-published

http://www.cuencahighlife.com/why-do-expats-go-home-why-do-they-seek-new-overseas-havens-a-long-time-expat-takes-a-hard-look-at-the-reasons-why/

A lot of what he has to say has been brought up in this thread, but its a much easier read than scrolling the responses

[Hud]

To ask the question why do people leave invites many of the responses here from people fed up with one thing or another perhaps looking for validation of their reasons to return north. A better question and one that would certainly invoke more positive responses would be why do people stay?

John, I venture a guess that you have not read these responses very closely. Actually, by my non scientific count, the people who "love it here" have stated their reasons by a whopping 74% margin over respondents who have actually replied to the OP(as he requested) with their reasons for leaving Mexico.

Again by my count, safety concerns is the number one reason reported here for leaving, followed by health concerns in second place, and fed up/doesn't work for me any more as third. Then the other category( grandchildren, miss the quality of life I really like, etc) closes at fourth. The people who make light of posters who find issues with living here are out in force, reflecting the issues(such as safety concerns)back to NOB incidents, so they do not have to deal with these real problems here.

[cbviajero]

I take it that the drug cartel went on vacation? We have more more killings in Mexico than in the States, 3 times as many.

. http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Mexico/United-States/Crime

Interesting statistics.

You're twice as likely to be raped in the US and you're SIX times more likely to be a victim of a violent crime in the US than in Mexico,according to the survey you linked.

[Guest bennie2]

viajero, rapes are reported in the US in general. in mex most people wont go to the police. (i know this for a fact). the stats are bogus. mr shrall, each to his own. BUT since when is "bad service" an "adventure"? what ever floats your boat. i would rather tend to my intellect than some bs pedestrian issue. suz, i am very familar w/floresta. they tried w/that barricade to improve things. now i live somewhere else, a rental. they only add additional security AFTER something happens. the good thing is that if it happend to one of the landlords houses, he will secure all his others. joco, you cant fix stupid. i was kind of niave when coming here myself. the draconian laws were shocking. i sometimes forgot where i was & argued. when i over heard some expats speaking, couldnt believe my ears. like the 2 women who asked the waiter what meals were "low carb". he said yes yes &yes. they are proberly are still here. the reasons hud stated are on the $.

[giltner68]

Sambrit10, you assume incorrectly, I grew up in farm country, I have no problem with a "hoofed" animal on a plate in front of me, it happens almost daily. I do have a very large problem with people, MXN and/or gringo, that treat "pawed" animals as commodities. While in MX I paid to take a number of animals, primarily infants, abandoned, to shelters and regularly fed a number of others.

[Sarita]

I would love to hear from the boomerang bunch: Those that leave and then, come back. I know of one who just did and another couple working on it. They would have an interesting perspective.

I suspect I am the one Valgal is referring to, who 'boomeranged'. We met several years ago in a town in British Columbia after visiting but before either of us made the move. I bought a house on the outskirts of one of the villages near Ajijic, against common sense & many warnings to rent first, and don't regret it, I love my home here, my fabulous tropical garden paradise, the stunning 360d views, and the weather, as well as the food, which surprised me as I never thought I would. I love the much lower cost of living and was happy to discover I could find most of what I want or learned to get by without. Most of the people have been wonderful though I quickly realized that a fair number of 'social misfits' find their way to Mexico - damn lucky for me, as I could be their queen. I have also been fortunate in being able to pick up Spanish fairly easily so don't feel like a total

gringa, and I love speaking with the locals.

Now- onto the reasons I left, which, as others have stated, are numerous.

Crime/Security: I removed the prison bars from all my windows but built a wall. The 2nd year I put spikes on the wall, 3rd year added electric fencing. I did major renos, countless workers knew about the gringa living alone up the hill, had seen too much.... reality is a tough teacher. Been through several gardeners, too, from leering perverts to lazy buggers to one with drug cartel connections who broke in one night (hence the electric fence). My car was keyed twice months apart, major paint jobs. Been shaken down by cops on phony speeding charges and ticketed for 'illegal' parking in Guad between 2 Mex plated cars. Tired of being singled out for the Big Squeeze because of my nationality.

I am daily horrified at the treatment of animals and nature in general, the filth and attitudes towards certain levels of society by those higher up, the corruption and realization that those in power/authority could well be on the payroll of the most dangerous & violent criminal organizations on earth. When the random abductions & murders of innocents hit in May a few years back, I think

many had had enough. My family begged me to leave in fear of my safety, along with a family crisis that required my presence back in Canada. Three years back I found I was not happy there, remembered clearly the reasons I initially left, and am now in the process of returning.

However, one week into my return, I have had several rude awakenings: multiple acts of damage to my new car (one very intentional), a lying ex-gardener who quit is suing me for firing him, and a very crooked lawyer is putting me through the wringer. Back NOB, I could go anywhere, alone, with no worries, but I would never here and I miss the freedom of personal security. I am once again re-evaluating my decisions and choices.

I think there are just so many factors on both sides of the equation that each person has to weigh the pros and cons on their own personal list that is compiled through their own unique experiences. Living in a foreign country is definitely not for everyone, but, you never know until you try so it is still worthwhile to give it a shot and if it turns out that it pushes you too far from your comfort zone, at least you can say you gave it your best shot, had a grand adventure, and, hopefully, didn't burn all your bridges behind you so you can proceed to Option B. Life is meant to be lived, the good, the bad, the ups & downs. Enjoy it while you can!

[valbogyo]

Sarita: Yes, I was thinking of you in my post, above. I always enjoy reading your posts. Hope you have all good things happening to you the rest of the year here. I could not have managed living in a rural area here, by myself. I am a gated community kind of person. You are courageous, in my opinion.

[gringal]

Sarita: Yes, I was thinking of you in my post, above. I always enjoy reading your posts. Hope you have all good things happening to you the rest of the year here. I could not have managed living in a rural area here, by myself. I am a gated community kind of person. You are courageous, in my opinion.

Sarita's post was very much to the point and well expressed.

ValGal's point was also a good one. To be frank, I did enough research before moving to Mexico that there is no way I would have moved to a rural area around here, even though it is beautiful. We foreigners seem so wealthy in comparison to so many of the poor here that we are targets.

I don't live in a gated community, but I can see the appeal of it. I live in a mixed neighborhood downtown with rare problems. I don't consider those window bars "prison like" since I know they aren't there to prevent me from leaving. There's are doors for that. I do understand that some folks can't get used to barred windows. It's common here, but not where they came from.

Sarita has had what seems to me to be a high average of unfortunate experiences and I empathize. Possibly, she could find a more comfortable living arrangement here and be content to stay. (or not). She certainly did all the things that show adaptability and courage.

[gringal]

Gee, I could not live in fear of the world outside, where I lived. I can not imagine that kind of fear.

I can imagine it. I was living on a hill above Los Angeles during the Rodney King riots; watching the city burn, being under curfew with armed guards at the local supermarket and keeping a serious weapon next to the front door. We lived there because of job convenience, but shortly thereafter, we moved to Orange county. Fear of violence gets to most everybody, so I don't doubt the feelings of others. I will say that the concern over being a robbery victim in Mexico is nothing compared to the fear of out of control mob violence. Even the fire department wouldn't go in to put out the fires.

[Sarita]

Sarita's post was very much to the point and well expressed.

ValGal's point was also a good one. To be frank, I did enough research before moving to Mexico that there is no way I would have moved to a rural area around here, even though it is beautiful. We foreigners seem so wealthy in comparison to so many of the poor here that we are targets.

I don't live in a gated community, but I can see the appeal of it. I live in a mixed neighborhood downtown with rare problems. I don't consider those window bars "prison like" since I know they aren't there to prevent me from leaving. There's are doors for that. I do understand that some folks can't get used to barred windows. It's common here, but not where they came from.

Sarita has had what seems to me to be a high average of unfortunate experiences and I empathize. Possibly, she could find a more comfortable living arrangement here and be content to stay. (or not). She certainly did all the things that show adaptability and courage.

Gringal, thanks for the kind words. However, I don't feel my situation is due to my location at all. My neighborhood, though semi-rural, is anything but poor. We are a mix of gringos (more Canadians than Americans) and wealthy Tapatios, mostly weekenders. Our area is blissfully peaceful, we have cows, goats and horses wandering loose, which I love. We recently became gated, as our Mexican neighbors pushed for the extra security. They are very aware of the realities of being wealthy in a country with so many extremely poor and some have been victims of extortion threats by cartels and fear being kidnapped, or worse. I have never felt afraid to be alone in my home, until I ended up with a gardener who had drug gang connections who threatened me. That could have happened regardless of where and how I lived. I would never trade my lifestyle here for any more urban environment and if the situation with these scum became intolerable, I would leave Mexico altogether rather than move to a gated community/gringo enclave.

For me, it boils down to the constant feeling that I need to be hyper-vigilant of myself ,y surroundings, my home security, my possessions and that of my vehicle when I am out in the world. I am now Permanente and bought a Mexican - plated car but those that cause problems still are very aware when I exit my car that I am a gringa, and right away, the game playing starts with the sleepy sales pitches for whatever they are offering, that, no matter how politely declined, leaves me wondering what I will find on my return, and bad things have occurred enough that I know it is not my wild imagination at work. While those who deny any such thing happens, I have read plenty of posts here to know that my experiences are not the isolated incidents some would have us believe. Foreigners are targeted by many of the crooks and scammers, and they are numerous and everywhere. Living here requires constant vigilance and that is very wearing, particularly if you come from a place like I did- Canada- where these kind of things are extremely rare and people live without a second thought to where they walk alone on the streets, or park their car, or who they open their door to.

Mexico, for those of us who came from a a safer, more sheltered society than some from cities with very high crime, is quite an eye-opener. The rules are very different here and you have to rethink and relearn much of what you know, to avoid feeling like a victim. I know many will take offence to that statement, but, most of you came down with a spouse, and will never know how being a single woman AND a foreigner at the same time, makes you an easy target for those with bad intentions.

My Mexican male friends have even warned me that I need to be more careful and that I should have the protection of a man, as women are more easily taken advantage of. Not reason enough for me to get hitched up, but I understand where they are coming from, and I keep my guard up at all times. But, it does take away something from the carefree enjoyment of life to have to live that way, always wondering what might be the next con aimed at me. Back in Canada, there are safeguards in place to help people avoid these unpleasantries. Not so here, Big Brother is not looking out for you, in this country you are on your own and as a foreigner, you have little protection from the government and any dealings with them can be as frustrating and unsavory as the crooks. Until you have to deal with the beurocratic bungling, ineptness and inefficiency, you realize how much you took for granted living NOB.

[rogerm]

Sarita, I appreciate your very frank comments. It sounds to me like you probably would not fit in the same circle that Gringal runs in?As they say different strokes for different folks..

[elevator]

It's not just mass murder in the states. I was in Atlanta for two weeks recently and there were murders/, armed robberies every day.

We have been here nine months and we never discuss any problems we encounter as far as crime here with friends, because nobody has had any occur and many have been here many years. It's luck and preparation.

We are moving into a new home in Brisas de Chapala and our landlords left a few weeks ago. They left the gate unlocked so neighbors could use the pool and a nice gas grill was stolen from the pool area. They might as well have hung out a sign saying steal me.

[slainte39]

I would definitely say that Canada works better for some people, Mexico for others. Just feel fortunate that you have a choice, as many don't.

MHO is that the attitudes, experiences, wants and don't wants of anyone, should affect the decisions of another. To each his own and it should be an individual decision.

There are people living in areas that are much worse than Chapala and don't leave it because they can't or don't want to.

I'll say it again....be thankful you have a choice if you do.

Many Mexicans leave the area for the US, Canada, and elsewhere but for different reasons than the returning to home ex-pats.

[slainte39]

Sarita, I appreciate your very frank comments. It sounds to me like you probably would not fit in the same circle that Gringal runs in?As they say different strokes for different folks..

I don't think gringal runs in a circle as she is pretty much a straight line person, except when there are wagons?

[afgh]

I remember the first morning I woke up here after coming in after dark. I looked around and thought "This is the dumbest thing you have ever done"

It took me about a year for me to figure out how things worked here and "go with the flow".

Occasionally, I get a wild hair and think about going back to Atlanta for a visit. I get on the internet, listen to Atlanta radio for a few minutes and get over it.

I plan to go back NOB eventually by either FedEX or UPS in a cardboard box.

Me I just want to be feed to the fish in the lake or dumped in the garden to push up the daisies. LOL

[valbogyo]

Um. I never lived in a rural place by myself in Canada or the US either. I like to have people nearby. Town houses and condos are my choice 'cause I have read too many serial killer novels and watched too many movies where women are alone, in isolated areas and ........eeeeeek! It has nothing to do with Mexico. I have traveled all over the world by myself, but.... living in a house, all alone, with no neighbors that can hear me.? Yep, my imagination runs with that one! Women who live alone in rural areas are my heroes. It think it takes courage. Sarita is independent and brave. Not easy in a foreign country.

(I always had ADT in my NOB homes..... would have lived in a gated community it they were available. I admit it!)

[ericurmudgeon]

Hey Val, don't worry. We will look after you! :-).

[Joco]

I think kiko and joco need to bite me and, moderators, please close this before the people who love this place get any grumpier!

What did I write that forced you to write "bite me" which is a filthy idea? I wrote about some very naive people who Zack described. Zack died a few years ago but I enjoed talking to him at LCS.

[Joco]

I think you should lock up your mouse until you're feeling better. This is an interesting thread, and I'd like to hear more from the people who are answering the original question: "Why do people leave?" Naturally, we're going to hear from those who love it here and have no intention of leaving. They don't sound grumpy to me, and nobody is saying everything here is perfect. On the other side, if a person's heart feels like iron filings with NOB as a magnet, there's no good reason they shouldn't go without the need for excuses. "I just want to" is reason enough.

Once in a while, after struggling with some of the negative aspects of living here vs. back in the states, I do a fast "cost/benefits" analysis.

"Benefits" wins, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't like to see some improvements, like getting rid of those "xvztvxz" potholes that eat tires.

I feel fine. Did you actually READ their comments about people who might want want to live somewhere else. They don't sound like happy people to me. On the other hand, I enjoyed my adventure living here but am over it and want to go north. It makes me happy. And, not a fan of chocolate but I like strawberry ice cream. Plus, have said anything negative about this place. Just some of the people in it. Certainly won't miss them.

I've been her almost 11 years. I have not written anything about me being unhappy. Did I hit a nerve and you were one of the people Zack described?

[Guest bennie2]

elevator, mass murders? armed robbers in atlanta? this has to be in the innercity where no one dares to tread.

[solajijic]

Back to the topic.

We know lots of people who have left primarily for medical and family, especially grandchildren. I can identify with the grandchildren part since mine are finally coming back to the US after 7 years living abroad almost their entire lives. I haven't had the chance of being a Gramma. It is not something I wanted to be more than I wanted my daughter to have her adventure. So I went and found my own adventure. So I haven't really missed the Gramma thing but I am not sure how it is going to net out in the long run but we are leaning toward a US base to come and go more easily.

Anyway the second part of not knowing how the new Gramma status is going to effect us is that I am also, after 9 years, feeling the need for a new adventure. I enjoyed being a fish out of water here for the first years. I had to learn everything about daily living all over again. With only one stoplight in town I had to learn to jaywalk again. Make substitutions in recipes and do without lots of items. Ingenuity, patience and problem-solving was required. It was a relief to leave our stereo-typical midwest cul-de-sac suburban lifestyle for the great unknown of Lake Chapala.

Now that I am at 60 and close to the age most are when they arrive here I realize I probably have another decade available to do this all over again. There are undoubtedly plenty of people who leave here for another, different adventure. We know people who have left for San Miguel, Delores Hidalgo, Cuernevaca, Merida, Thailand, India and Hong Kong.

[gringal]

In the U.S., the "inner cities" might as well be walled, since most people from the outlying areas don't venture there. In Mexico, there can be a poor person's hovel next door to a mansion. I might add the the hills above the harbor in Los Angeles were a rather well off area, so it came as a great unpleasant surprise to me and my neighbors that we were very close to the "action" (aka riots). But that's there, and this is here. Having also lived in some very rural areas in the states at one point, I saw that things went on that were very unsettling, but people tended to cross their fingers and hope for the best. City/country.......always trade offs.

We only get one crack at life, and one of the most important factors in our personal happiness is being comfortable in our environment. If we aren't, we always have choices. If I woke up one day and found myself living in fear of what the day might bring, I'd definitely start thinking about moving ASAP, and no voices from the other side (people who are happy right here) would dissuade me. We all live in our own heads, not someone else's.

Good luck, Sarita and safe travels.

[Guest bennie2]

sarita wrote an honest post. one persons courage could be another persons foolishness. when you get involved w/too many people here, the chances of being victimized go up. (IMO). too many workers as an example. best to keep it simple. i never had a regular gardener, i rotated. sometimes the yardman from next door would rake the leaves. when i needed the grass cut i used the same occassional worker, (no strings attached). he also did my roof/ fixed leaks. no one had keys to the property. so many expats bring things on themselves. (im not referring to sarita, dont know details). your workers are not your friends, or family. the last thing i need to know is who is w/which gang. even having water delievered i dont let them bring in their children. i dont drive so that cuts down on the interactions. less is more.

[gringal]

sarita wrote an honest post. one persons courage could be another persons foolishness. when you get involved w/too many people here, the chances of being victimized go up. (IMO). too many workers as an example. best to keep it simple. i never had a regular gardener, i rotated. sometimes the yardman from next door would rake the leaves. when i needed the grass cut i used the same occassional worker, (no strings attached). he also did my roof/ fixed leaks. no one had keys to the property. so many expats bring things on themselves. (im not referring to sarita, dont know details). your workers are not your friends, or family. the last thing i need to know is who is w/which gang. even having water delievered i dont let them bring in their children. i dont drive so that cuts down on the interactions. less is more.

I have to agree with you, Bennie. Be extremely careful who has keys (if anyone) to your property. There are contract services (i.e. Spring Clean) that send workers to take care of your needs, but no key exchanges happen. I happen to like that arrangement, but of course others prefer having a more personal relationship and are trusting of their employees, and that's fine if it works for you.

[ezpz]

Why do (so many) people leave here? Possibly because they made a poor decision to come here in the first place?

There are lots of All-English websites and other businesses that promote the whole notion of "retiring to Mexico," often painting an overly rosy picture in order to make a sale. Few of them ever realistically state that it is essential to learn the language and the culture if you are going to move to a foreign country for any reason.

Without doing that, one ends up in the All English Parallel Universe Bubble here which many people actually think is the real world. Sooner or later, they are bound to come up against reality, experience shock, and many can't handle it and want to leave and put their houses up for sale, etc.

We gringos are actually a small minority here. The Real World here is the Mexican World. Up north, Mexicans are under a lot of pressure to learn English and "blend in". Here, the gringos do not seem to feel that sentiment. So, culture shock is practically inevitable for them.

Besides navigating the enormous economic and cultural gap between most of the gringos and most of the foreigners here, it is essential to know one's own heart before making a major life decision. Were people really so unable to anticipate that they would miss their families and/or the junk food and shopping up north?

I have been drawn to the Mexican world, even the pre-hispanic side of it, ever since I moved here 8 years ago. I have found the Mexican world, culture, and people to be a lot more fun - as well as more rewarding, than the gringo world here. I socialize with more Mexican friends than gringos, because I enjoy being around younger people, and have found a loosely knit circle of people of various ages, (mostly younger) bi-cultural, bi-lingual, with whom I share common spiritual and creative interests.

So, I feel firmly grounded here and do not want to leave! The only place I would want to live in the US would be Northern CA, where I have spent most of my life, but it is SO expensive there now, due to all the high paying tech jobs and other wealthy people who can live where ever they choose.

I have never been the victim of any sort of crime here, and I walk freely around town, often after dark, sometimes late. Vibes are important. No one bothers me! My neighbors know me. I usually wear Huichol jewelry which makes a "fashion statement" on several levels. I also sometimes wear reflective mirror glasses which can be intimidating.

There are always some small annoying things about being here, but overall, the pros far outweigh the cons for me. Viva Mexico!