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Regularization of cars and options for Permanent Residents

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I went to one of my classes last night and the state head of PRODECON was there. They have helped us fight the TIP refund issues and they do offer a service where we can get a technical ruling from them where they will search the laws and give us an answer and then when the time comes, fight on our behalf to make sure the authorities comply with their ruling.

I am preparing to frame the issue of foreigners who came here with temporarily imported vehicles and then change to permanent. I will ask them to clarify if there is any regularization program, what are the other options and mention how the law says you can donate your car to the government but in practice they dont let you do that. I hope to have an answer in a few weeks which I will make public and be able to provide solid options and solutions for the mane people who find themselves in this situation.

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Spencer this is wonderful news and will be spectacular if it results in some concrete answers and possible solutions. There must be many people in the same situation as we are: we want to do the right thing regarding our vehicle and for all intents and purposes, our vehicle meets the requirements so far as we are aware (2009 NAFTA vehicle). We just want the MEANS to comply. It seems as if the goal posts are forever moving; my understanding now is that the latest kink in the hose is that Mexico doesn't know what can be done with Canadian cars without a title. What will it take to understand the validity of an ownership document?

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Canadian cars are no problem, I have obtained a letter from the Canadian consulate explaining the situation (insurance documents are title documents) and have presented it to SAT and to get plates and they accept it.

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Problem with Canadian cars is at the border. If you call a broker and ask, they can not nationalize unless you import them into the US first. Anyone can confirm by calling Enrique 956-722-6476. He and his brother operate Super Importaciones. www.superimportaciones.com.

I can process Canadian registered vehicles 2009 and older but slow.

Buen Fin

Sonia

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That's good news Spencer. Practicing law is the "long game", the hard work you do not only pays the bills, is an inspiration to others, but eventually yields the all important "connections", so important in Mexico.

I notice that Prodecon is mainly about sorting out abuses, like you discovered in the TIP process. You know far more than I on framing out a brief, but you might want to mention the lack of "quid pro quo" of this calamity. Less than four years ago a deal was struck between individual foreign residents, INM and SAT - it didn't matter where your car was from, as long as you renewed FM2 or FM3. After 4 years FM2 you had the option to become an immigrant (now called Permanent Resident) but could not keep a foreign car if you did. Within 1.5 years - the deal completely changed, with no debate or consultation. Now you have to become a Permanent Resident, not optional, or leave the country to reapply as a Temporary resident. What happened to our "quid pro quo", how is "the new deal" of any benefit foreign residents wishing to move to Mexico?

A second area of 'abuse', and I know there is a Latin legal term, is when you are forced to break a government law in order to comply with another government law. The "means to comply" as twoheads points out, changes on a daily basis. There was a very interesting legal term in Mexico during the Spanish Conquest - "Obedezco pero no complio" - you probably know this one, but it is fun and pretty close to the situation.

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Has there been any determination on RV's. I plan to go permanent next year, and have 6 years remaining on my 10 year permit. It has been reported that when push comes to shove, they are looking the other way, but nothing official. I've been unable to find anything definitive from other websites, and Aduana here in Mazatlán has no idea.

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Well yesterday I turned in my request to study this issue, hope they will take it seriously as I seem to be the only one interested in protecting foreigners

http://www.chapalalaw.com/PRODECON%20acuse%2021%205%202015.pdf

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Sadly, that fact might work against you. Certainly hope not. Thanks, Spencer.

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I need to try and I emphasize that while PRODECON likes big cases, this one is small but affects thousands of people.

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Well yesterday I turned in my request to study this issue, hope they will take it seriously as I seem to be the only one interested in protecting foreigners

http://www.chapalalaw.com/PRODECON%20acuse%2021%205%202015.pdf

That is true Spencer. This is just an opinion, but I feel like organizations like U.D.C. also speak up for the needs of senior immigrants on limited incomes, whether they know it or not!

We definitely need to attract more immigrants like you and your wife in the mix. There should be a meeting with INM as to how to make that happen.

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Looks like things are moving forward and on the road to having the issue studied

http://www.chapalalaw.com/PRODECON.pdf

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Thanks Spencer

I suspect part of the delay was due to politics and hopefully with election over soon results.

The national leader of UCD who lives and works in Mexico City, Antonio Tirado and his daughter who is the Vice President of UCD went to the Mexican border and yesterday they met with Aduana representatives and the broker. They made it very clear that this delay violates NAFTA, the amparo and agreements they have with UCD and they want results.

For those wondering and who want to make the trip I understand at Nuevo Laredo, 2006 and 2007 NAFTA made, US registered vehicles can nationalized for a cost higher than in the past. That cost is now between $1500 and $3000 US. This means no Canadian registered nor non-NAFTA vehicles nor older or newer. Anyone thinking of going to the border to nationalize should call first.
Odd how usually the two naysayers posts are always similar and often one shortly after the other as below. The lives of some are shaded with anger and hate and negativity.
Antonio Tirado is the head of the legal and official UCD as ruled in several courts including in DF. He has copyright protection to the name UCD. Those who accuse him of fraud do so in trying to take away his organization from him. Even in San Miguel there is an illegal UCD. When one obtains a legal UCD permit with 5 digits in GTO state they get with it a letter from SAT and head of transito police for the state, saying their car is legal. The cars with a 4 letter plate from the illegal office receive neither. The legal UCD operates in several states.
saludos
Sonia
PS. The man I work with daily who is the head of UCD for GTO state works a minimum of 10 hours a day Monday to Friday and about 8 hours on Saturdays and at least some on Sundays. We communicate as early as 6 am and and as late as 10 pm. he works tirelessly for UCD and this is what they do and I am proud to be associated with them.
UCD (La Unión Campesina Democrática)

UCD is a very influential association of nearly 900,000 members in Mexico made to improve conditions and advocating for farmers etc, buy seeds, wells, irrigation, home improvements, making less expensive foreign vehicles legal, government liaison / support for their causes, etc. UCD or similar organizations can be found in most states in Mexico. Through government programs such as SEDESOL, INAES, SEDATU, YOUNG ENTREPRENEUR, EMPRENDEDRO YOUNG RURAL HOUSING they help poor people, those marginalized, orphans and work to find employment for those fighting for an opportunity at a decent life. They also are advocates for Indigenous Peoples.

For renal patients they assist in arranging and paying for dialysis and related medicines along with detection and early care of those with renal failure. UCD assists in the coordination of kidney transplants.

UCD encourages and supports sporting events and the involvement in sports while providing trophies and rewards.

In addition, free legal support for those without the resources is provided through UCD.

It is also important to UCD members to promote Mexican culture, traditions and celebrations such as Day of the Dead, Day of the Child, Mother's Day, Independence Day, etc.

UCD encourages Mexican artisans. They promotes their products to national and foreign tourists and businesses and assist with contracts between artisans and buyers / businesses. This support includes guidance in the exporting of works of art to foreign countries.

And as noted before UCD has a permit allowing foreign plated vehicles to drive legally in certain areas and also allows for an easier method for law enforcement to track these vehicles should there become a need. Once one has initial membership annual renewals are approx. 600 p for the year. I would estimate nearly 99% of their total membership is Mexicans.
Edited by Sonia

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The national leader of UCD who lives and works in Mexico City, Antonio Tirado and his daughter who is the Vice President of UCD

Sounds like a nice family run business.

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Sounds like a nice family run business.

No kidding..

Google (antonio tirado fraude ucd) for more information about that corrupt organization.

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Well yesterday I turned in my request to study this issue, hope they will take it seriously as I seem to be the only one interested in protecting foreigners

http://www.chapalalaw.com/PRODECON%20acuse%2021%205%202015.pdf

Regarding car import issues,foreigners are an insignificant drop in the bucket,these new regulations affect far far many more Mexicans than ex-pats.

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Unions and politics are always locked into a bare knuckle, no rules fight, with each side accusing the other of something. The leadership of UCD is obviously in an internal power struggle, again extremely common. Now after the election, no matter who is in charge of UCD, it is time to call in a return on the multiple thousands of votes the union will declare it directed. Does this effect foreigners? Not in the least. U.C.D. has a licensed customs broker they use for nationalizing vehicles, all U.C.D. gets out of it is the $60 U.S. membership fee. When you get nationalized, you are sent the legal papers you need to obtain plates in any State you want (at extra cost, and hassle, of course). You also get a paper plate, which can only be used in a UCD strong state, for example Guanajuato, certainly not Jalisco, but you have to renew the UCD plate and membership every year (the $60 - remember). At least this is my understanding. I could very possible be wrong - maybe UCD does take a percentage for paperwork, etc. A few hundred dollars would seem to be low pay. In the early to mid 1980's, it cost $10,000 U.S. for a lawyer or consultant to obtain a Permanent Resident visa for Canada - that was 25 years ago.

I have been a member of IATSE (teamsters), OP&CMIA (contractor & member), and NABET. I have stayed well clear of these feuds - they carry a tradition of bloody, terrible things, which always whips the media into a frenzy.

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You seem well informed on UCD activities and methods for someone staying "well clear", probably more so, than most members.

The UCD does seem to be in all sorts of political and financial alliances with all sorts of people.

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I hesitate to mention the following as it seems that this whole car nationalizations is such a disagreeable and misunderstood situation that it doesn't seem to take much before a discussion turns into an argument but I am curious . . .

Here is what I am not understanding: Why are any of the NAFTA vehicles in a holding pattern for naturalization, legalization (or whatever) if they meet the criteria according to age of the vehicle. Second on my mind is this: Canada too is a participant in the NAFTA agreement so what is all the extra fuss over processing a Canadian vehicle that meets the requirements?

I am not very politically savvy at all, but I do understand English and maybe it is just me and my ignorance, but doesn't the word AGREEMENT in NAFTA pretty much sum up terms that North America has AGREED to go forward with a zillion years ago? Wouldn't getting all twisty, bendy and manipulative with the accord sort of negate it's existence?

Just asking . . .

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Mexico is in violation of the NAFTA Agreement it signed with the US and Canada in so many ways other than just this issue of importation of used vehicles. Problem is nobody has the time or dineros to bother with a legal battle to get some justice.

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I know that that is true but for me it just re-enforces my thinking that the NAFTA agreement is not worth the powder to blow it up if the participants can ignore whatever portions that they decide to ignore without any consequences.

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I know that that is true but for me it just re-enforces my thinking that the NAFTA agreement is not worth the powder to blow it up if the participants can ignore whatever portions that they decide to ignore without any consequences.

One of the things I have noticed in Mexico is when something goes too far astray as did nationalizing vehicles both at the border and the virtual nationalizations the Mexican federal government sometime likes to punish everyone including the innocent. This theme seems to be repeated in many cases. They don´t care who gets inconvienced. They seem not to care what the rules are and do whatever they want to do to send the message out that getting caught has it´s consequences even if it is unfair. Probably until the next presidential election this mess will continue.

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One of the things I have noticed in Mexico is when something goes too far astray as did nationalizing vehicles both at the border and the virtual nationalizations the Mexican federal government sometime likes to punish everyone including the innocent. This theme seems to be repeated in many cases. They don´t care who gets inconvienced. They seem not to care what the rules are and do whatever they want to do to send the message out that getting caught has it´s consequences even if it is unfair. Probably until the next presidential election this mess will continue.

Too true! This is not only limited to national laws, but even maintaining discipline. Thank goodness I never had a father like this, one that gives his kid (or gang member!) a good smack on the head - "What was that for, I didn't do nuthin' !?!?!" - "That is just a reminder of what will happen if you DO screw up!"

An amnesty for foreign plated vehicles was (apparently) an election issue in 2007, and an amnesty was issued then, this was the most recent. This might also be the source of the word "regularization" - the huge registry and tax grab after an amnesty.

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Too true! This is not only limited to national laws, but even maintaining discipline. Thank goodness I never had a father like this, one that gives his kid (or gang member!) a good smack on the head - "What was that for, I didn't do nuthin' !?!?!" - "That is just a reminder of what will happen if you DO screw up!"

An amnesty for foreign plated vehicles was (apparently) an election issue in 2007, and an amnesty was issued then, this was the most recent. This might also be the source of the word "regularization" - the huge registry and tax grab after an amnesty.

I think these types of punishments are done because the gov´t. doesn´t have the resources to prosecute all those involved and know if they did it might take too long [sometime years], cost too much [tie up courts and Judges etc.] , and go no where through past experiences and decided to do the punishment through other means and as examples. If a show of concern is done at least those in power feel they did something.

There are many more things that we don´t understand but eventually they, one by one, begin to make sense by knowing more about the different systems in Mexico and how they work or don´t work. Comparing NOB systems to Mexican systems is where many Expats lose perspective and get annoyed with living here. IMO

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Perhaps we forget that there are two major categories of importation: New vehicles imported by distributors for dealerships in Mexico. Those continue. Then, there are the importations of used vehicles by individuals and/or small used car dealerships. Those seem to have stopped. Of course, new vehicle exports from Mexico to the USA and other countries is stronger than ever. This is all quite correct and understandable.

Tourists are unaffected, but expats going Permanente are affected. However, I know of no other place where one could immigrate and keep a foreign vehicle; probably no other place in the world. We only expect it because Mexico was previously over-generous to temporary residents. Immigrants never had that privilege as ‘inmigrados‘, so why do those becoming Residente Permanente expect it now? Yes, the option to remain Residente Temporal does exist, but with the need to exit and re-apply, or expire and be fined to re-apply in some INM locations. It is different now, but still generous. The expat problem is their own inconvenience and some expense, which we shared. However, it may be time to ‘trade‘ that old 10-20 year old low mileage car anyway; you just have to take it out of Mexico, and buy the next one inside Mexico. Once done, the pain and expense will soon be forgotten; probably before the new car smell is gone. Oh yes: No more fees or deposits at the border and more smiles from transitos.

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Not sure what you are referring to as Canadians take cars to US and nationalize them in significant numbers. And, same with American cars being nationalized in Canada. The car we nationalized 20 months ago had been sold and registered in the US. My husband bought it in Canada, fully nationalized and legal. We then nationalized it in Mexico.

He also nationalized a Volvo XC90 which he bought in the US where he lived and later when he moved to Canada it was Ontario registered.

The flow of cars between Canada and the US somewhat follows exchange rates.

As per NAFTA, when cars meet emissions and safety standards they are to be allowed to be registered in all 3 countries following proper processes.

One can also read expat web boards in Costa Rica, Belize etc and one will find the ability for individuals to import cars by paying fees and meeting various requirements. In Europe cars move between countries with ease.

This whole issue with Aduana violates NAFTA and it is purely political and it too will come to past. And the NAFTA issue goes well beyond past 8 months. The age of vehicle which one can nationalize has not followed the law. At the peak 50,000 cars were nationalized through Aduana and nearly all were commercial operators. The current issue is not to do with expats.

Buen Fin

Sonia

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