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FAKE CAR NATIONALIZATION PAPERS??


CalGal

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No. Spencer was supposed to be working on this but I think the whole thing has died. A lawyer at our insurance agency was also looking into it for us. I have no idea if he is right or wrong but he told us to put the foreign plates back on the vehicle, put the TIP back on the window, have the registration brought up to date and get insurance for a foreign vehicle. He then told us not to drive our car to the border .... just to drive it around here and in Guadalajara until the border opens up and starts legalizing vehicles. I know this is not what everyone thinks should be done but we did it because we didn't know what else to do. This lawyer said that the law was misinterpreted by some that say a permanente can not drive a foreign vehicle. He says that he is old school buddies with the head of Aduana and that this is what he was advised for us to do by him at this time.

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You use the word "legalizing" in your post but I think you mean "nationalizing" when you refer to the border process with Aduana to import a vehicle permanently into Mexico. As I understand it now, "legalizing" and "nationalizing" are two completely different procedures and done for different reasons.

From what I understand (and I may be wrong), "legalizing" only allows you to get some Mexican plates on the car (usually Mexico State plates) so you can get insurance and be able to drive it around without fear of having it confiscated. Sort of like Mexico's version of putting SD plates on it. Problem though is that you don't hold a full title to the vehicle in your name (has to be in a Mexican citizen's name) so you cannot sell it here and is risky - should only be done on older vehicles with low values. This appears to be what a lot of Mexicans do with the cars they bring back from the US.

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I used the wrong word then ... We will never "legalize" a car under that definition as we will not have a car that we don't hold the title to. We are just waiting to see what transpires in the next few months. I have been told there are new rules or laws that are going to be adopted to clean up all this mess ... whether that is true or not I don't know. If we can have our car here in Mexico and drive it anywhere we wish, and drive it across the border and back etc. etc. then whatever that is called we will do it if it isn't too much more expensive (since we already paid $45,000.00 pesos for fraudulent papers). If not, we will take it to the States and sell it.

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I am working with a criminal attorney and we have waited to get a bunch of people together. Please do not drive your car if permanente. I have a case where a permanente was caught driving and fined 150,000 pesos and the car was impounded and the car was an old Honda minivan. If the attorney has a buddy at aduana who thinks permanentes can drive foreign plated cars maybe he can help my people get out of the huge fine that was imposed and get their car back.

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I am working with a criminal attorney and we have waited to get a bunch of people together. Please do not drive your car if permanente. I have a case where a permanente was caught driving and fined 150,000 pesos and the car was impounded and the car was an old Honda minivan. If the attorney has a buddy at aduana who thinks permanentes can drive foreign plated cars maybe he can help my people get out of the huge fine that was imposed and get their car back.

Spencer,

How was he or she caught and by whom were they caught?

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Road checkpoint where they were randomly checking cars

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I believe this was the reason we were told to just drive around here. What are we supposed to do? Just let our car sit until when? Our papers are fraudulent and we know it now .... so if we use the Mexican plates and get Mexican insurance and get stopped and they check our papers and find very quickly that they are fraudulent ... then we are in a mess of trouble also.

Spencer, how long is it going to take for you to get a bunch of people together?

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I was to meet with the criminal specialist last week but she was busy, we are going to try and meet again tomorrow.

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Spencer: What has gotten done so far and more importantly, what is left to do? Are you attempting to bring criminal and civil charges against the "lady at the airport" as well as the gringo who provided the illegal papers? There are a large number of us who want to know what's happening.

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I think his clients are actually paying him a fee to provide that information to them. They may not be pleased if he shares all that for free.

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We need to prepare criminal complaints and there are various people and variations to the crimes.

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I was under the impression that the only papers you have to carry with your car is the little wallet-size car registration. I don't believe you have to carry your pedimento or title. The problem exists with the pedimento, I believe, because the date on it does not jibe with when you actually nationalized your car. For example, my pedimento is dated in January of 2014 but I didn't start the process through the local person supposedly doing the process through the "lady at the airport" until September of 2014. My understanding from a previous post by Spencer was that his clients' car was impounded because they had a permanente visa but were driving a foreign plated vehicle. If you are stopped in a Jalisco plated vehicle and have the walled registration I don't believe you would have any problem because your vehicle would show up as legally licensed in Jalisco. The state of Jalisco was more than happy to take my money to renew the vehicle license in January.

If you have taken out permanent residence and haven't nationalized your car yet then I think you are running a risk of having it impounded.

At least that's my understanding of the situation.

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The problems arises at roadside checkpoints and with federal police where they check the VIN numbers as many people have fake papers and many states have very loose controls where stolen vehicles can be registered.

So people with fake pedimentos even if you have Jalisco plates and pay every year still are at risk if at a checkpoint they run your VIN number OR you need to get new plates OR your car is impounded due to bad parking or an accident OR you sell it and the next person has that problem or cannot register it.

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So it sounds like you are classifying the "partial" Pedimentos obtained from facilitators and car dealers as "fake" pedimentos and "fake" fracturas. The process which they (including the lady lawyer from the airport) calls "legalization" and Aduana calls "regularization". It seems the breakdown of that system happened when the facilitator who took over this airport trade, insisted on, and promised, Jalisco plates. As you have mentioned before, Jalisco remains the toughest state in Mexico to register a vehicle. They probably insisted on the original copy of the full Pedimento - which was not available, but checks out as completely legit on the databases.

I would say that if you are a permanent resident driving a Mexico City plated car, make sure it is a "transpo" (my word) that if you had to give it up you are out $2,000 to $3,000 dollars. According to my 'wheelman' from Guadalajara there are a lot of clean, reliable foreign plated vehicles in that price range, in fact many of them available from local gringos. Insurance - well if Qualitas and GNP are willing to insure UDC "paper" plated vehicles, I am sure they are willing to at least liability insure "legalized" chocolates.

On the trade ins, Mainecoons is probably right about the Honda dealer not accepting a foreign plated trade in. Honda, Toyota and Nissan enjoy an excellent reputation in Mexico, much like Mercedes enjoys in Canada and the U.S.A. - they seldom offer deals, low interest loans and the like. They feel they don't have to.

As far as a local person "legalizing" or "faking" foreign plated vehicles I am tempted to say I don't know anyone. But in fact a car dealer who wanted to buy my truck could do it, not for me but for his resale of the truck, and then another one who recommended another car dealer, but he was a pretty shifty ex-cholo.

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When we became Residente Permanente, I was unable to travel for quite some time. So, we parked our NoB vehicle in our garage and it stayed there for two years. We did have a second car with Jalisco plates, purchased in Guadalajara, so we drove that until we eventually sold it, got a Retorno Seguro through Intercasa/Spencer, renewed the insurance on the NoB car and drove it out of Mexico without incident.

If you cannot get the NoB vehicle out of Mexico before going Permanente, you may have to do it that way. Importation is a futile dream and not worth the trouble or expense.

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Plus we can not get Mexican insurance with the fraudulent papers even though we at this point do have Mexican license plates. The insurance company checked our papers and told us they were fraudulent and they could not write insurance using them. That is when we were advised to do what I said on the above post.

So, we are in trouble either way ... if the Federal police check the VIN number at a road side stop and we have fraudulent papers and our car is not listed .... or if we have foreign plates and a permanente status. I believe the advise we were given took both of these situations into account and concluded that we were safer around here with foreign plates.

However, now I don't feel safe either way. As soon as possible we will probably try to obtain the papers to just take it back to the States and sell it and be done. What a mess.

Oh, I was also told by the lawyer at the insurance company that he would not advise actually bringing charges against these people involved in the fraudulent papers because 1. our car would be the object of the charges and would be impounded pending the outcome which may take years; and 2. that we could also be in trouble personally because ignorance of a law is not a defense and even though we unwittingly participated in a fraud ... we participated. I believe this is the same in the States .. the ignorance of the law thing.

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We will file charges first for those who have removed their cars from Mexico via the retorno seguro method to eliminate issues for victims.

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The fake papers were actually clones from another vehicle. For one of the people posting here, the pedimento was scanned and sent to me and ultimately to Aduana who confirmed the pedimento was cloned. Some had a date on the pedimento prior to when process even started. This is an impossibility if a legal pedimento. There is no pad of blank pedimentos waiting to be issued. They are system / computer generated at time they are completed. Plus no legal nationalizing process comes with state plates and no legal nationalizing process for non-NAFTA cars existed after February 2014 and never newer than a 2006 vehicle. The legal non-NAFTA process was only allowed in Chihuahua and required an original title where as NAFTA cars require only a scan of title. Once nationalized in Chihuahua a person there applied for Chihuahua state plates and a couple of days later turned them in and a Baja de Vehiculos issued. Once that is done your documents sent to you and you apply at your local Rentas office. This process included a physical inspection before state plates and Tarjeta de Circulacion issued.

And finally, the cost charged for this fake process was about 50% more that it should have been.

I would trust Spencer to resolve this matter but patience will be required.

Sonia

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Having plates doesnt mean your vehicle is legal. There are and were people selling plates from Mexico City and Michoacan and they would do stolen cars and ones where there was a loan in the US and the person stopped paying. I think the import scammers bribed people to get Jalisco plates so haveing plates and paying the state an annual fee doesnt mean you will not have problems in the future.

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Having plates doesnt mean your vehicle is legal. There are and were people selling plates from Mexico City and Michoacan and they would do stolen cars and ones where there was a loan in the US and the person stopped paying. I think the import scammers bribed people to get Jalisco plates so haveing plates and paying the state an annual fee doesnt mean you will not have problems in the future.

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Any rumors of problems with Immigration and your Visa if Permanente and found driving a US plated or illegal car

SRE checks our police records when we apply for naturalized citizenship, but that takes a special trip and special request for the Mex. Gob. to search our records.

There is no evidence that INM checks our police records.

Hypothetically, if someone were arrested and charged, and did not resolve the charges, and refused to pay fines, then prosecutors might notify INM. Lot's of links in that chain before INM takes action.

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Plus we can not get Mexican insurance with the fraudulent papers even though we at this point do have Mexican license plates. The insurance company checked our papers and told us they were fraudulent and they could not write insurance using them. That is when we were advised to do what I said on the above post.

So, we are in trouble either way ... if the Federal police check the VIN number at a road side stop and we have fraudulent papers and our car is not listed .... or if we have foreign plates and a permanente status. I believe the advise we were given took both of these situations into account and concluded that we were safer around here with foreign plates.

However, now I don't feel safe either way. As soon as possible we will probably try to obtain the papers to just take it back to the States and sell it and be done. What a mess.

Oh, I was also told by the lawyer at the insurance company that he would not advise actually bringing charges against these people involved in the fraudulent papers because 1. our car would be the object of the charges and would be impounded pending the outcome which may take years; and 2. that we could also be in trouble personally because ignorance of a law is not a defense and even though we unwittingly participated in a fraud ... we participated. I believe this is the same in the States .. the ignorance of the law thing.

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