Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Recommended Posts

As far as foreigners rights, yes you have the right to work on community issues that affect where you live and you will have no worries about problems due to being involved in politics. Please use your voice and exercise your right to free speech and support your communities in areas that affect your way of life.

Tesis: P./J. 138/2005 Semanario Judicial de la Federación y su Gaceta Novena Época 176678 2 de 2 Pleno Tomo XXII, Noviembre de 2005 Pag. 113 Jurisprudencia(Constitucional)

PARTICIPACIÓN CIUDADANA. EL ARTÍCULO 75 DE LA LEY RELATIVA DEL DISTRITO FEDERAL, QUE ESTABLECE QUE LA ASAMBLEA CIUDADANA SE INTEGRARÁ CON LOS HABITANTES DE LA UNIDAD TERRITORIAL, INCLUYENDO MENORES DE EDAD Y EXTRANJEROS, NO VIOLA EL DERECHO DE ASOCIACIÓN.


El derecho de asociación, contenido en el artículo 9o. de la Constitución Política de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos, implica la potestad de los individuos para unirse con el fin de constituir entidades o personas morales tendentes a la consecución de objetivos plenamente identificados, cuya realización sea constante y permanente, con la limitante de que sólo los ciudadanos de la República (mexicanos mayores de dieciocho años, en términos del artículo 34 constitucional) podrán hacerlo para tomar parte en asuntos políticos del país. Ahora bien, si se atiende a que la finalidad de la participación ciudadana consiste en solucionar los problemas de interés general de la ciudadanía perteneciente a la misma unidad territorial, así como intercambiar opiniones sobre los asuntos públicos de la ciudad en general, sin que este tipo de agrupaciones o asociaciones tenga como objetivo tomar parte en asuntos políticos, es indudable que no les son aplicables las referidas restricciones constitucionales; de ahí que el artículo 75 de la Ley de Participación Ciudadana del Distrito Federal, al prever que la asamblea ciudadana se integrará con los habitantes de la unidad territorial, incluyendo menores de edad y extranjeros, no viola el referido derecho constitucional, máxime que como se desprende de la exposición de motivos de la reforma al artículo 122 constitucional, publicada en el Diario Oficial de la Federación el 25 de octubre de 1993, al eliminar el requisito de ser ciudadano de la República para participar en las organizaciones ciudadanas, se pretende incluir también a los habitantes y residentes de la ciudad, independientemente de su nacionalidad y de su carácter de ciudadanos, ampliación de derechos que obedece a la importancia de reconocer que las decisiones sobre la administración de la ciudad afectan a todos sus habitantes por igual, lo que justifica que todos tengan derecho a participar.




ACCIÓN DE INCONSTITUCIONALIDAD 19/2004. Diputados integrantes de la Tercera Legislatura de la Asamblea Legislativa del Distrito Federal. 2 de mayo de 2005. Unanimidad de diez votos. Ausente: José de Jesús Gudiño Pelayo. Ponente: Olga Sánchez Cordero de García Villegas. Secretarios: Pedro Alberto Nava Malagón y Víctor Miguel Bravo Melgoza.

El Tribunal Pleno, el dieciocho de octubre en curso, aprobó, con el número 138/2005, la tesis jurisprudencial que antecede. México, Distrito Federal, a dieciocho de octubre de dos mil cinco.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone forwarded me Lisa's write up on all three projects. Her reports on the first two, an internationally branded luxury hotel and the already announced hospital in Riberas make it abundantly plain that BOTH of these are appropriate in scale and properly planned to blend into the area density and height wise.

Her report on Lake City seems to shift into advocacy, a lack of skepticism and a seeming lack of understanding of how out of scale and proportion to the area this monstrous proposal is. She understands that it would sit over top of thermal waters without grasping the geological implications of that or of the very well known instability of the area.

So yes, I also hope that some other reporter will approach this thing with a "show me" attitude, a willingness to do the hard work of digging into the background and apparent lack of experience of the developers, and most importantly shine a light on the government officials who colluded in concealing this from the public and handing out some sort of approvals based on nothing but a bunch of hot air, and a real reporter's keen appreciation of the difference between developments that blend into an area versus one that would overwhelm it like Lake City.

Why the heck you think they are calling it a "city?"

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in learning exactly how Lisa J. got the scoop on this boondoggle in the first place - although her reporting of it belied a great lack of comprehension of some of the obvious facts surrounding this issue. Wait til we find out the real story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in learning exactly how Lisa J. got the scoop on this boondoggle in the first place - although her reporting of it belied a great lack of comprehension of some of the obvious facts surrounding this issue. Wait til we find out the real story!

Her method of publishing on line is unique for this area. Minimum overhead good presentation , just sign up and send money. She is a hustler, has interesting articles, and has found a niche .

She uses peoples email exclusively, so having heard of the meeting very easy to contact local Gringos..

Question; how did she and other folks, get "The (Lake Chapala Society???) List" in the first place.

I receive emails from from other sources, I guess pirated copies of "The List" are sold at the Tianquis!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Her method of publishing on line is unique for this area. Minimum overhead good presentation , just sign up and send money. She is a hustler, has interesting articles, and has found a niche .

She uses peoples email exclusively, so having heard of the meeting very easy to contact local Gringos..

Question; how did she and other folks, get "The (Lake Chapala Society???) List" in the first place.

I receive emails from from other sources, I guess pirated copies of "The List" are sold at the Tianquis!!!

I belong to LCS and am in the book, but i did not get an invitation, so the LIST isn't from LCS.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your email address is in the book? I recommend nobody put their email address in any publication like that, other than for business purposes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You are right, Computer Guy. But since 1998 I have had my telephone number and email address in one and now two phone books lakeside, and for ten years while I wrote for the Guadalajara Reporter, I had my "techtalk@laguna.com.mx" address shown at the beginning of every story, each week.

So far I have been lucky. No problems.

Sure, I do have more spam than I would have had, had I not made my email addresses public. But my spam filters took/take care of most of them.

And luckily never did I receive any emails from this Spanish Lake City.

Again Computerguy is correct. I guess I have just been lucky. Now if this new "Lake City" will only have a Costco store and a Burger King, I will have everything that I will need.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Dale Palfrey's front page article on this issue in today's Reporter has a final sentence on local web boards where she notes that "unfounded speculation is running rampant."

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just read it. Also read about all the omissions and "vague" statements. At least she noticed those.

Does anyone seriously believe the scale of this thing is appropriate to either Chapala or Lakeside?

That was totally not addressed in this disappointing work by the Reporter. Totally lacking was any investigative work about whether the proposers really have the horses to do something on this scale, about all those omissions relating to water, sewer and roads and the geology of the site.

Not to mention what was or is in it for those officials who signed off on something behind closed doors without any warning to the community and with obvious great lack of the technical and geological details that should precede any such approvals.

It is this kind of official behavior that gives rise to the speculation as to just whose payrolls they are on.

What is the most ridiculous about this whole thing is that amateurish market study that is based on bad math and is clearly not up to date on the retirement restrictions and preferences faced by that mythical wave of baby boomers that are somehow going to come up with the money to retire at all, let alone they would want to give up the privacy and amenities of low density housing so they can move here and be stacked up like cord wood.

Somebody needs to sit these ivory tower college folks down and show them all the recent studies about how the boomers don't have enough money in the bank to retire at all. And when they finally do, they'll be looking at a Social Security fund that is broke.

The fact is that today's retirees, the ones already living here and showing no interest in living in high rises, are the lucky ones.

Ain't gonna happen, folks. A lot of baby boomers will be working into their 70's thanks to the economic decline of America. Unfortunately, what we'll most likely end up with is a devastated piece of property pouring mud down on its neighbors during the rainy season and some abandoned holes and half constructed buildings. Think about that black hole up on the libremiento and multiply by ten or so.

A very poor effort, Dale, sorry. We would have been better off if you had taken more time and really did some digging on this. We know you know how.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mainecoons . . . I like your thoughts, but can do without your editorializing. America is not in economic decline . . . it happens to be the strongest and most robust economy in the world today. Also, Social Security is in great shape for at least 35 years . . . will only get stronger in years ahead.

Otherwise, I appreciate your insights, whether I agree with them or not.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would like to agree with Tycobb1020, but reality is with Mainecoons. I do believe that we are expecting others to give answers with clarity to end all speculation. The fact is that most of the answers we are looking for will come with time/patience.

We only know a little. Not enough for me to make any decisions regarding leaving or continuing to live here

"I can only accept the things I cannot change"

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Let's give Dale a break. First, this is a reported article, not an investigative article. She's barely had time to look into this in any detail. Second, while she does know the ins and outs of the local goverment offices, no one magically gives her information that is not generally available to the public. Which means you or I would probably have as much luck trying to get details.

Third, any good investigation means confirming uncovered facts by getting confirmation from other sources; since no one around here seems to know or admit to knowing anything about it, how is she going to do that in record time? Anyone working "under the table" with this group from the government is not going to be forthcoming, especially if it could get them in trouble. Next, considering whoever is in on the this may quite well be outside of the municipal government, how is anyone going to get any information.

In the very short time since the meeting, she has also had all her other duties to attend, and the paper goes to bed on Thursday night.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would give Dale a break except that she spent much of her article complaining about the behavior of understandably shocked attendees at the meeting (since this thing was hidden from the people and signed off by these government "officials" with absolutely no notice to anyone as to what they were up to) instead of asking the tough questions and not just repeating a lot of the vague hot air that comprises basically all of what these people have come up with.

Let's see if she bothers to dig deeper. For certain, there are few things going on around here that are as game changing as this proposal is.

Ty, you really need to do some homework. Start with this:

http://www.ssa.gov/oact/trsum/

http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/columnist/brooks/2013/01/28/retire-debt-crisis-retirement-boomers/1840225/

http://www.nasi.org/learn/socialsecurity/boomers

http://money.cnn.com/2014/11/20/news/economy/america-part-time-jobs-poverty/

All from credible sources. Here's the reality: Except for a few fat cats, the incomes of the middle class folks, like the ones who retire here, is going down. Straight down. Few boomers have the savings needed to afford to retire and that is getting worse by the day.

Thanks to government actions, no one earns anything on their savings unless they invest in an extremely bubbled and overvalued stock market and that is predicted to blow up any day now just as the last bubble, housing prices, did.

It is nonsense to base the economic projections for this thing based on the past wealth and behavior of retirees as the coming retirees don't have near the assets that the past ones did.

The Mexicans don't like this sort of housing at all and the gringos are able to afford it less and less, not that they are all that keen on apartment living either.

On top of that, the Mexican government is hardly making it easy to retire here. Hence, we find that the increasingly limited means of retirees is sending them to other places where the deals are better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

TX, Mainecoons, I agree totally.

It is too scary to even begin to believe that this project could actually be started, let alone completed as stated so far. Building skyscrapers on unstable land is unthinkable! San Francisco has tall buildings and is earthquake prone, BUT - the big difference is that the USA, especially California, has very stringent building codes and utilizes the latest technology regarding quakes, and spares no expense to build the best. We all know that is not the case in Mexico where shoddy construction is the often the norm. Is that not a recipe for disaster? What would you expect from an outfit that uses Google translations on their website???

I would venture that the only people who claim to support this monstrosity are the ones that would stand to profit in some way from this supposed Baby Boomer Boom down here. As I pointed out before, the gringo invasion has already slowed since 2008, and there are no reality based indications that any large development is necessary or welcome here - or even going to happen. If northerners wanted to live in such a complex, they could do that much easier at home.

Today I ran into my friend, Domingo Marquez, who is the editor of the SeminarioLaguna Spanish weekly on local matters. He will be coming out with the news soon for the Mexican community. I predict that the people will be up in arms, especially those that live in Chapala, when they find out what has been planned totally behind their backs, and then presented to foreigners before they were informed at all!. Talk about rude and insulting!

There are elections coming up, and we expats can't vote, but there is no reason we can't continue to discuss this issue with eachother and our Mexican friends. My maid understands how corporations often pay the lowest possible wages to workers, keeping people mired in poverty even as they hold down full time jobs - and all the profits go elsewhere to where ever those at the top live - like Walmart.

The traffic concerns alone should be enough to nix this! What, are they expecting that the thousands of new arrivals and customers of the convention center, mall, etc. are magically going to teleport themselves around? Obviously, the Dog And Pony Show provided no answers, and so people were understandably rude as they knew they were being lied to and having their intelligence insulted.

For those of you who feel any remote support for this venture - the next time you are stuck in traffic around here, especially around Chapala, just imagine it being about, oh, 100 times worse. That is what Lake City would bring.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just as an example of how unrealistic this thing is, I got an email from a buddy of mine who follows stuff around here.

You noted the "wave" of baby boomers is as silly as the Olympic games a few years ago at the lake. People with bags of money just dying to buy at any price? - yeah right. Well, fast forward to today and retirement in the States, it's far from impossible and I'll give you my situation which isn't for everyone, but it works for me....

I bought a place (in Texas), approximately 60 miles to the heart of Austin, about 50 to Cedar Park and major shopping, a Costco etc. I have a Dollar General store 1 mile away with a number of restaurants in that same radius. The closest major grocery store is Kingsland 5 miles plus a major Ace Hardware, a second grocery store is 10 miles in Burnet and a larger one 20 miles in Marbles Falls which also has Home Depot and Lowes.

I am in (xx) county so my taxes are low. I bought the house, 3 bedroom, 2 bath fireplace etc with sizable decks front and rear. A 4 year old 4 car garage or "barn" which is 20' X 40' plus two additional 10' X 18' bodegas. The property is 1.3 acres with "city" water. I paid $75K for the property including a riding mower etc. My taxes are around $575 per year, the total PITI is $447 per month. Water is a bit expensive, $50 per month, electricity is less than $0.12 per KWH (and reliable, what is the value of that?). So, you see the basics of life in a rather pleasant place are more than affordable.

Retiring isn't cheap here but it has gotten a lot cheaper NOB. Why do you think the real estate market is STILL so sluggish here? Why would anyone think that a bunch of people are going to suddenly show up with a burning desire to live stacked like cordwood. pay the price of a house for it and pay a stiff condo fee for the privilege?

We shouldn't have to be the only ones pointing out the obvious. Skeptical, hard nosed reporters are supposed to be good at that.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I beg to differ. This is a weekly, English-language informational paper that reports on items of interest to the ex-pat community. It is not a well-staffed, hard-hitting, resource-based investigative vehicle. It does what it can with very, very limited resources. If it dies, I will sorely miss it, and we will be left with a large information "hole". When it can do more, it does. There are times when this is possible, and times when it is not. Dale is "reporter" of events, who tries to clarify the details of a story that might be of interest to us.

It was not her job at this gathering than to do any more than report on events. She is not paid to spend her time snooping at El Presidente's office and making enemies. Hell, she's probably barely paid at all. If somebody wants to cough up a decent salary for dedicating to an "investigative journalist", go for it.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Then she should have skipped spending most of the article complaining about the people who have been blind sided by this.

Today I ran into my friend, Domingo Marquez, who is the editor of the SeminarioLaguna Spanish weekly on local matters. He will be coming out with the news soon for the Mexican community. I predict that the people will be up in arms, especially those that live in Chapala, when they find out what has been planned totally behind their backs,and then presented to foreigners before they were informed at all!. Talk about rude and insulting!

And added to that by publishing a letter that did the same.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The ironic thing is that if the U.S.A. just changed one law, it would be a huge economic boom for their country. That law, is to allow financially eligible foreigners, with compulsory medical insurance, to own property in the U.S. and stay there for more than one year. Right now, they can only stay six months, no matter their net worth. Asians, Latin Americans, Canadians, Europeans (including Russians) would be buying up all the homes, and building new ones, in the style that were bought and lost in the 2007 crash.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would give Dale a break except that she spent much of her article complaining about the behavior of understandably shocked attendees at the meeting...

It was not a "meeting". It was a sales presentation.

I object to the proposed project as much as anyone. It is absolutely ridiculous as it's "envisioned". Like many here, I'm making sure all of my Mexican friends know about it - and many hadn't heard - since they need to be aware of what's what. For me, I take comfort in the idea that the project, as it's proposed, is so absurd and ridiculous that it will never happen in a bazillion Mexican years.

Still, it seems unfair to ridicule a reporter for simply reporting what happened at a public presentation. She was just doing her job. And there will undoubtedly be more to the story…….unless the whole shebang just evaporates, which at this stage seems entirely likely to me. :lol:

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

""Today I ran into my friend, Domingo Marquez, who is the editor of the SeminarioLaguna Spanish weekly on local matters. He will be coming out with the news soon for the Mexican community. I predict that the people will be up in arms, especially those that live in Chapala, when they find out what has been planned totally behind their backs,and then presented to foreigners before they were informed at all!. Talk about rude and insulting!""

Mainecoons, I am confused. Is the above quote you posted from the Guadalajara Reporter article, an editorial or a letter to the editor?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...