Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Recommended Posts

"We seem to forget that we are guests here." I`ve had quite enough of that hogwash.

Unless you're a Mexican citizen you are a guest here.

Get your Mexican citizenship and learn Spanish,then you'll have a voice here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you're a Mexican citizen you are a guest here.

Get your Mexican citizenship and learn Spanish,then you'll have a voice here.

Amen to that!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Unless you're a Mexican citizen you are a guest here.

Get your Mexican citizenship and learn Spanish,then you'll have a voice here.

I have, and deserve, a voice by virtue of my investment in this community. I speak Spanish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Can you cite under what law you have and deserve a voice? There is a big difference in what we "think we deserve" and what the laws say we are entitled to. Sometimes it is painful to realizw we have very few "rights". Great that you speak Spanish but until you become a voting citizen you have very few rights except to stay our of politics and thus remain "in country".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just received this in my email:

The permits don't appear readable on my screen.

Oldy, please watch the first, you keep equating this huge project with small stuff. This is a character changing proposal for this area. And yes, I believe everyone here has the right and duty to speak up about things like this. I just can't imagine the people of Chapala wanting to be eclipsed by this monstrosity.

Why should ousiders have more rights to determine the character of a community than the people who live there?

I also received an email from Lisa and the Lake Chapala Reporter telling me to check out these videos. I clicked on both of them, and it states 'this video is private'. I couldn't view a thing!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

i speak Spanish, have lived here 20 years, I am a Naturalised Mexican citizen and I vote. Today at the tianguis I approached a number of Mexican friends, many of whom are activists in the community. Guess what- none of them knew about this planned community, none of them knew about the "informational" meeting on Monday, and all were aghast at this plan.

Those are the people, not 200 ex-pats, who should have been invited to that event. They know that the area selected to house that ridiculous outcropping is one of the most unstable portions of the unstable geography here. I am doing my best to inform those who have all the rights to know what is being planned for their community. Then they,( not the aging ex-pats who supposedly are targeted to support that planned monstrosity), can do what they feel is best.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

both worked for me

but the numbers do not add up

read the plans, dissect them and make some valid comments otherwise you are just moaning gringo.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went with the court to serve papers and nobody knew about the project. I think things will get very interesting next week with information being able to be verified.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I got that email also, with links that were marked "private". What's up with that?? Why aren't they public viewing if they are supposed to be proving a point?

A few more thoughts - to newcomers who are oblivious to the negative aspects of the Walmart and Centro Laguna developments... Remember when they were built 5-6 years ago? That treacherous intersection of the Carretera and the Libremiento became the most dangerous spot in Lakeside. There was virtually no traffic control and many wrecks occurred. I saw one aftermath involving a huge gas truck which fortunately did not blow up. At this point, HarryB and others are still working on the traffic issues at that corner.

Urban Planning, like Amplified Sound Management, is still a new and emerging concept in Mexico, which makes it even more risky to build large developments which will have a devastating effect on local traffic. For starters!!

My friends in Chapala reminded me that that hill, which many people like to go hiking on, is well known for seismic instability. The new 2-story townhouses on the street above the Hotel Monte Carlo are already showing cracks and signs of slippage of the earth. And I recall that the new business space at that corner sat empty for quite a while before it was occupied; don't know the current status.

If enough money changes hands, it is possible to have any kind of "reports" and "studies" drawn up to prove exactly what point you want to prove - and facts become a mere inconvenience.

The problem with any sort of outside developers or corporations building anything in a small community is that the profits do not stay there - they go where the owners live. The jobs created would be mostly service jobs, very low paying, keeping the workers in entrenched poverty, so let's not imagine that this would be an overall improvement to the local economy.

I lived for several years in Las Vegas where rampant development provides growth - like a cancer! For every great new hotel built, another one closed! They are seriously running out of water, and that was predicted decades ago.

We need to communicate this situation with our Mexican friends. We expats with home computers have much more media access, and therefore are more aware of current events of all kinds. So, we can be a valuable source of information to them - to at least give them some ballpark info to get started with. When they realize how this project would rape the land and destroy the ambience of the town, they will not support this!

I'm reminded of the issue of the Huichol people who fought the huge mining company that wanted to take over their ancestral land, promising them jobs in exchange. The Huicholes fought it all the way - and won. We need to all stick together to fight this thing in whatever form it takes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The instability of the area is certainly a well-known fact around here. Due west of the main Chapala intersection is a row of uninhabitable and abandoned buildings, which were damaged by a shift in the earth and an ensuing landslide. The landmark mural is actually painted on a retaining wall, built to try to prevent the next landslide from blocking Avenida Hidalgo. Before being renamed, the street was known as known as Calle Aguascalientes because that is where the natural hot springs came bubbling up. I believe both the Monte Carlo hotel and the Lake Chapala Inn draw geothermal water from private wells onsite to fill their pools. In looking at the brochure, it appears that this development is planned to be constructed to the west of the Monte Carlo, across the street from the little park along the beach.

The lake itself sits in the depression of a caldera created during a previous eruption of Mt. Colima. Uh oh...what's that plume of smoke I see on the horizon?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If it looks like a duck, walks etc.etc. What's the big deal? This appears to be a pure simple attempt at hustling deposits,down payments and blowing town at midnight IMHO because for just a couple of many reasons. One- inviting only Gringos. The Company's impression might be that we have lots of money, and easily taken advantage of at our age. Which once in a while will unfortunately happen. Two- If I understood correctly the presentation was cheap? ill prepared? ect. which would indicate the promoters did not even have the financing, or a better thought out plan to do the BIG hustle. They should have watched the movie "The Sting" first. THAT tells you they are amateurs. At the very,very least amateurs at their vocation IMHO Gee. Hope din't offend anybody with my opinion.LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I went with the court to serve papers and nobody knew about the project. I think things will get very interesting next week with information being able to be verified.

What does it say about the municipal and state governments that they would apparently sign off on something like this behind closed doors and apparently willfully concealing the knowledge of it and their actions from the community until now?

Is this the kind of government that engenders respect and a belief in its integrity?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

People who are "Permanente" status residents have all the rights under the Mexican Constitution (A LAW) of a mexican citizen save participation in political campaigns/ voting. All permits are public record in Obras Publicas. You may get a look at them, after a runaround. You could photo them. They would never let you make a copy. It would be interesting if Dale Palfrey would list which permits they have and who signed them in her article, which i assume is coming.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And for those who don't know it, Harry is a Mexican citizen.

Thanks Harry.

Perhaps the "developers" never did actually approach the proper officials. after all, there seems to be no actual evidence of authrization.

They are displaying letters signed by Jalisco and Chapala listings in the presentations given above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

From one account of the presentation I heard the promoters were surprised that so many people showed up - and so was I. Just imagine how surprised they would have been if NO ONE had shown up. What would they have done next?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

it's like any other project here

it will take 15 year to fill the place

2000 condos 700 hotel rooms etc

they will be selling times share fractional ownership's, it will take time to fill up.

and of course they will not do it with there money,

they will try to build it we pre pay money ,

the project will be slow and the first owners may get a view but they will be living on a construction site for 15 years and be complaining that it was not built out fast enough.

the in about 5 years or they will being a high maintenance fee for there condo, which will catch them by surprise

but as usual the they are elderly and did not due the due diligence necessary in buying.

cant sell nobody would i used condo when a new is available at the same price.

until its full in twenty years

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Perhaps Dale Palfrey could put together a reliable, unbiased" investigative " report. A review of all the comments here should give a good outline of what to needs to be covered. It really would be helpful to all to have a legitimate summary rather than just opinions and guesses. LJ seems to have lost the confidence of the readers.

Someone suggested a while back of having a "group" of mature, level headed expats to become consider and investigate. I think that is a great idea.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as foreigners rights, yes you have the right to work on community issues that affect where you live and you will have no worries about problems due to being involved in politics. Please use your voice and exercise your right to free speech and support your communities in areas that affect your way of life.

Tesis: P./J. 138/2005 Semanario Judicial de la Federación y su Gaceta Novena Época 176678 2 de 2 Pleno Tomo XXII, Noviembre de 2005 Pag. 113 Jurisprudencia(Constitucional)

PARTICIPACIÓN CIUDADANA. EL ARTÍCULO 75 DE LA LEY RELATIVA DEL DISTRITO FEDERAL, QUE ESTABLECE QUE LA ASAMBLEA CIUDADANA SE INTEGRARÁ CON LOS HABITANTES DE LA UNIDAD TERRITORIAL, INCLUYENDO MENORES DE EDAD Y EXTRANJEROS, NO VIOLA EL DERECHO DE ASOCIACIÓN.


El derecho de asociación, contenido en el artículo 9o. de la Constitución Política de los Estados Unidos Mexicanos, implica la potestad de los individuos para unirse con el fin de constituir entidades o personas morales tendentes a la consecución de objetivos plenamente identificados, cuya realización sea constante y permanente, con la limitante de que sólo los ciudadanos de la República (mexicanos mayores de dieciocho años, en términos del artículo 34 constitucional) podrán hacerlo para tomar parte en asuntos políticos del país. Ahora bien, si se atiende a que la finalidad de la participación ciudadana consiste en solucionar los problemas de interés general de la ciudadanía perteneciente a la misma unidad territorial, así como intercambiar opiniones sobre los asuntos públicos de la ciudad en general, sin que este tipo de agrupaciones o asociaciones tenga como objetivo tomar parte en asuntos políticos, es indudable que no les son aplicables las referidas restricciones constitucionales; de ahí que el artículo 75 de la Ley de Participación Ciudadana del Distrito Federal, al prever que la asamblea ciudadana se integrará con los habitantes de la unidad territorial, incluyendo menores de edad y extranjeros, no viola el referido derecho constitucional, máxime que como se desprende de la exposición de motivos de la reforma al artículo 122 constitucional, publicada en el Diario Oficial de la Federación el 25 de octubre de 1993, al eliminar el requisito de ser ciudadano de la República para participar en las organizaciones ciudadanas, se pretende incluir también a los habitantes y residentes de la ciudad, independientemente de su nacionalidad y de su carácter de ciudadanos, ampliación de derechos que obedece a la importancia de reconocer que las decisiones sobre la administración de la ciudad afectan a todos sus habitantes por igual, lo que justifica que todos tengan derecho a participar.




ACCIÓN DE INCONSTITUCIONALIDAD 19/2004. Diputados integrantes de la Tercera Legislatura de la Asamblea Legislativa del Distrito Federal. 2 de mayo de 2005. Unanimidad de diez votos. Ausente: José de Jesús Gudiño Pelayo. Ponente: Olga Sánchez Cordero de García Villegas. Secretarios: Pedro Alberto Nava Malagón y Víctor Miguel Bravo Melgoza.

El Tribunal Pleno, el dieciocho de octubre en curso, aprobó, con el número 138/2005, la tesis jurisprudencial que antecede. México, Distrito Federal, a dieciocho de octubre de dos mil cinco.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone forwarded me Lisa's write up on all three projects. Her reports on the first two, an internationally branded luxury hotel and the already announced hospital in Riberas make it abundantly plain that BOTH of these are appropriate in scale and properly planned to blend into the area density and height wise.

Her report on Lake City seems to shift into advocacy, a lack of skepticism and a seeming lack of understanding of how out of scale and proportion to the area this monstrous proposal is. She understands that it would sit over top of thermal waters without grasping the geological implications of that or of the very well known instability of the area.

So yes, I also hope that some other reporter will approach this thing with a "show me" attitude, a willingness to do the hard work of digging into the background and apparent lack of experience of the developers, and most importantly shine a light on the government officials who colluded in concealing this from the public and handing out some sort of approvals based on nothing but a bunch of hot air, and a real reporter's keen appreciation of the difference between developments that blend into an area versus one that would overwhelm it like Lake City.

Why the heck you think they are calling it a "city?"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in learning exactly how Lisa J. got the scoop on this boondoggle in the first place - although her reporting of it belied a great lack of comprehension of some of the obvious facts surrounding this issue. Wait til we find out the real story!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be interested in learning exactly how Lisa J. got the scoop on this boondoggle in the first place - although her reporting of it belied a great lack of comprehension of some of the obvious facts surrounding this issue. Wait til we find out the real story!

Her method of publishing on line is unique for this area. Minimum overhead good presentation , just sign up and send money. She is a hustler, has interesting articles, and has found a niche .

She uses peoples email exclusively, so having heard of the meeting very easy to contact local Gringos..

Question; how did she and other folks, get "The (Lake Chapala Society???) List" in the first place.

I receive emails from from other sources, I guess pirated copies of "The List" are sold at the Tianquis!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...