Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Recommended Posts

I attended and participated in the meeting today. Lots of negativity from the expats. That's expected. This project in my opinion is unlikely to happen as presented. Make no mistake, the migration of baby boomers will continue. The expat population has tripled in the last 25 years and northern demographics will cause the population to Triple again in the next 10 years or less!!!! The population in Guadalajara is growing extremely fast and forces those with the ability to move further from their work. This will continue at an even faster rate. The locals I talked to today would like to believe that it will happen for the positive economic effects. They are the people who will vote in elections. Not us Expats. We can voice our disappointment that our world is changing, we can't stop demographics.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IN ENGLISH ONLY????????

Maybe they were headed to Florida and took a wrong turn?

Heck, even Phoenix and Tucson do not have complexes like this. Why are we so attractive???

Hmm... now that I think of it, this complex would look very nice on the outskirts of Hermosillo ("Tucson South"), where you cannot see the mountains unless you are up high, and where it is too hot to go out of doors except at night, and where, she said enigmatically, lots of things seem to get built without local opposition.

But then let's consider the advantages of having this built HERE for us doddering oldsters: one would have grocery and booze delivery, treadmill, balcony view, pool--as long as the A/C works, you would never have to leave. (Of course, if the elevators don't work, you COULDN'T leave!) And then, in the future, when one gets terminally ill, one could simply jump off the balcony. Sounds perfect to me;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it was in English only. I also noticed some bilingua Mexicans there. What I want to know is what can We DO? Enough griping, is there anyting we can do to get pro active?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lisa Jorgensen here. Here's the editorial I wrote this evening.

Most of us expats are not Mexican citizens, which means we can’t vote, which means politicians can ignore us if they want to. If we make ourselves so disliked that the last thing they want to do is listen to us or talk to us, we will lose our voice and our ability to shape our futures here.

That is why today’s discourteous interaction with the developers of a modern complex was not only embarrassing, but counterproductive. The shoutouts from the back rows, the guffaws, the chronic woe-is-us negativism—the self-righteous belligerence of some in the audience will certainly give pause to other groups contemplating bringing significant issues before us. We just aren’t civil enough—we, ironically, who think we have the advanced civilization. And because of that, we’re losing our voice.

How do I know? Because we’ve lost part of our voice already. Remember the Lake Chapala Society’s Town Meetings? They brought traffic commandants and immigration officials to have some meaningful exchange of information with us. I was there at each one, and I came away incredulous at the rudeness of some members of the audience. They refused to sit down and listen. They came with chips on their shoulders, and were determined that everyone should hear their bellyaching. They ruined it for all of us. The result? No more Town Meetings. And, frankly, it was the one program the Lake Chapala Society had that I thought was relevant to today’s modern expats.

Whether the complex being presented today is a good idea or not is beside the point this evening. These are serious business people with a plan. They presented the plan to the Municipality of Chapala, who gave them the green light. Our job today was to learn. If we want to fight city hall, we should take it up with city hall. I encourage you to start a committee (of courteous people) to talk with city hall. If I were them, I’m not so sure how responsive I’d be, given our inability to be civil. We seem to forget that we are guests here.

Feel free to write a Letter to the Editor at info@LakeChapalaReporter.com. All thoughtful submissions will be published.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have my own opinions about this project at this point, but regardless, I agree with what OneMexicoExpat just wrote. I went there today to hear for myself their "best sales pitch" and to gather information. After about 30 minutes I got a sense of the hostility in the crowd. The presenters, who were obviously at a language disadvantage, weren't even allowed to finish their presentation before heckling-style questions started erupting from the audience.

I left at 40 minutes. Rude is rude. Some people need to learn how to behave in public.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Did they at any time during the presentation try to "sell" lots etc?

Ref Lisa J observations , yes please be civil and listen...may of us who have heard "dozens" of the presentations from government officials know that there is no follow up to promises etc, so we are cynical of future dog and pony shows.

How many Transtio and Police Captains have we had make presentations during the past 24 months. They come and go more frequently than the snowbirds

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lisa J.... Well said. VERY well said. Many times I hear the negativity from Ex pats, and I am astounded at their attitudes. We ARE guests here, and I, for one, am proud to be a guest here. Too many want to "Re-invent the wheel" and just end up making life worse for all of us. The Mexican culture is very proud, and fighting with these lovely people is unacceptable. Thank you for your editorial. I just hope that people take a good look in their mirror.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

We were given a form to complete on leaving asking which properties we were interested in.

There seemed to be a fair number who were completing them!!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, golly day and possibly poop shit to boot! I attended the presentation and I have a totally different perspective from OneMexicoExpat and Travis. Yes, I heard some laughter at ridiculous comments from the presenter and yes, I heard some scornful remarks but at no point did I feel they were over the top. These folks are trying to pull one over on us and I sure hope that we are way more intelligent than they seem to think we are. Lisa, we are expat residents and hear us roar; we have not lost our voice. I thank you for bringing this atrocity to our attention. However, the developers deserve only as good as they give which is, IMHO, pure crap. Let's rid our wonderful village of this pollutant before we begin to inhale their fumes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
We tried to get some specifics for projects they have completed. Other than "many worldwide" She was quasi-specific. She said "some student housing in Guadalajara, and a very successful major complex in Asturias, a small village in Spain. I have a friend Asturias whom I contacted. Nothing there fits the description.

We need to get into the Registrar of Land Titles office and check. They are closed this week. It will probably take a realtor among us to do it.

I think you'll this real pie in the sky, hogwash.

Does anyone have a company name for them in Europe? If there is one.[/quote

Please get your facts right,asturias is a province in spain, not a small town..bit like calling america the dogs bllks,-.maybe one day geography and common sense will be taught at american schools.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The presenter has emailed me this evening. She plans to send me answers tomorrow to questions asked at today's presentation, plus all relevant legal documents. I plan to send a newsletter out to my email distribution list as soon as I have all the info. Please advise if you want to be on the email list.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Their presentation was all sell and no substance. It was all about we have studied you Baby Boomers and we know what you want. What crap. I wasn't surprised by the negativity expressed by the audience because the architectural drawings are so over the top high rise a la Hong Kong or Singapore. If the local pols have been bought off some aspect of the project may get built. The presenter weasel worded about Water, sewer, power and road congestion but the local pols will have to answer these questions. I can just see the line of cars backed up on the Caratera as the "newbies" , tired of their high rise " assisted living" prison try to find a place to park at Super Lake or Tony's.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bear in mind this:

Expats may not vote but they do have a powerful voice and influence the local economy.

I can't imagine who wants to retire and spend their days atop an apartment building.

Surprisingly this project has not had any exposure among mexicans, at least I have not heard anything about it on the local newspaper Pagina nor facebook pages or groups.

I am sure they will sell this project to mexicans and local community as a "jobs opportuniy" and "a chance for local economy to grow ".

Guad people only come here on weekends and the rest of the week the local economy is supported by expats, I can't imagine the local economy surviving witout the expat community.

If this project scares the current expat residents away it means the end of the paradise as we know it, since there is no industry to employ local people.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one factor you're leaving out, R2, is that we really are becoming a suburb of GDL with a growing population of Taptios who live here and work there. However, I question whether these people would be any more interested in living in hermetically sealed high rises than the rest of us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

these poor folks must have been seen as the golden geese when they approached the Chapala admin. It is very typical of outgoing Chapala politicos to make impossible deals. Taking with one hand and issuing permits with the other. The truth is that they will have to begin all over again with the new admin coming in September, not to say they won't be successful again.

I didn't speak at this meeting because I didn't like the tone. I wanted to speak to the rep after, but, again I couldn't get to him. They must have felt that they had backed into a buzzsaw!

We can affect the future by speaking to our Mexican contacts, yes even our maids and gardeners. If the entire community comes to understand the impact of such a project it will not go forward.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

LisaJ, respectfully, my impression is that you are more advocate and cheerleader for this thing than the skeptical reporter needed here. I don't get the impression that you've really done any serious investigation of the people behind this scheme nor do you seem to understand the environmental and urban implications of literally chopping off the top of a mountain and plopping a huge project like this on top of it, right next to an already clogged two lane road.

Equating something like this to a low density development of single family homes (The Racquet Club) reinforces my belief that you really need to get some help in your coverage from people who understand what high density high rise development is all about. As noted by another poster, even the Racquet Club caused a serious environmental problem under the right conditions. This area is subject to torrential downpours and floods from runoff.

This project is far more massive and the potential for harm under those conditions is far greater.

Look at that gaping hole and ugly eyesore above El Parque on the Libremiento to help yourself understand the implications of such a massive development on our area should it fail as so many of these types of schemes seem to do. Don't be fooled by the clearly not to scale and very amateurish renditions presented by these people. The reality would be a huge and massive pile of concrete towering over Chapala and surroundings that would destroy the visual environment for the lakeside's leading community.

Not to mention the incredible environmental impacts it would have on water supply, sewage disposal, storm water runoff and traffic.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lisa Jorgensen here. Here's the editorial I wrote this evening.

Most of us expats are not Mexican citizens, which means we can’t vote, which means politicians can ignore us if they want to. If we make ourselves so disliked that the last thing they want to do is listen to us or talk to us, we will lose our voice and our ability to shape our futures here.

That is why today’s discourteous interaction with the developers of a modern complex was not only embarrassing, but counterproductive. The shoutouts from the back rows, the guffaws, the chronic woe-is-us negativism—the self-righteous belligerence of some in the audience will certainly give pause to other groups contemplating bringing significant issues before us. We just aren’t civil enough—we, ironically, who think we have the advanced civilization. And because of that, we’re losing our voice.

How do I know? Because we’ve lost part of our voice already. Remember the Lake Chapala Society’s Town Meetings? They brought traffic commandants and immigration officials to have some meaningful exchange of information with us. I was there at each one, and I came away incredulous at the rudeness of some members of the audience. They refused to sit down and listen. They came with chips on their shoulders, and were determined that everyone should hear their bellyaching. They ruined it for all of us. The result? No more Town Meetings. And, frankly, it was the one program the Lake Chapala Society had that I thought was relevant to today’s modern expats.

Whether the complex being presented today is a good idea or not is beside the point this evening. These are serious business people with a plan. They presented the plan to the Municipality of Chapala, who gave them the green light. Our job today was to learn. If we want to fight city hall, we should take it up with city hall. I encourage you to start a committee (of courteous people) to talk with city hall. If I were them, I’m not so sure how responsive I’d be, given our inability to be civil. We seem to forget that we are guests here.

Feel free to write a Letter to the Editor at info@LakeChapalaReporter.com. All thoughtful submissions will be published.

The statements in this piece about LCS need clarification and correction. These meetings were not a "town hall" they were issue specific. Immigration continues to hold periodic events at LCS as do other local and state agencies. Please discuss your statements here with Terry Vidal LCS Executive Director and correct as needed. Thank you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one factor you're leaving out, R2, is that we really are becoming a suburb of GDL with a growing population of Taptios who live here and work there. However, I question whether these people would be any more interested in living in hermetically sealed high rises than the rest of us.

According to my source, the mid to upscale apartment ("condo") market collapsed in Guadalajara about one year ago - and it has only got worse - the homeowners are simply not paying their maintenance fees. This is no joke if you are on the 21st floor, the elevator is broken, and the repair company is demanding cash up front. As former Foreign Minister for Mexico, and former Presidential candidate (independent) Jorge Castenada wrote - Mexicans are too individualisitic to share apartment living -"Mi Casa is MI Casa" he writes. A great proportion low income housing in Mexico is semi-detached. In Brazil and Spain this is not the case. Spain was so overbuilt a couple of years ago, so much so that it was a national crisis. The government stepped in and said they would grant a Permanent Resident visa to anybody purchasing a mid priced condo (about $163,000 U.S. at the time).

So I don't know who compiled their market surveys. The 5,000 to a very optimistic 10,000 foreigners are not buying these condos. The weather is simply too nice here to encase yourself behind and air conditioned, triple glazed wall of glass.The market for upscale student accomodation must also be extremely small. The market for a non Church sanctioned columbarium (resting place for cremation ashes) must also be extremely small in a country which is traditionally against cremation. These projects are an obscene waste of money and are doomed from the very beginning. But then again the shores of the Lake are littered with ruined debris of financial fantasies.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Mainecoons, you're wrong on many counts. But, I know how this webboard works, and I'm just not going to get sucked in.

No problem. Share with us details on your in-depth investigations of the people behind this project. Provide us the details of all the approvals you and they claim they have. Let's see some details on any other projects of this magnitude that these folks have succeeded with. In other words, report the story, don't just editorialize about it.

Do you really not understand the technical and environmental differences between low-mid density single family developments and a project involving multiple, massive high rise towers?

As for your comments about LCS, I reiterate that you need to contact Terry Vidal to get your facts straight. Because right now, they are not.

I wasn't there but I've heard enough feedback to indicate that your criticisms of the tone of the meeting have some merit. Perhaps if you remove the rose colored glasses regarding this massive and environment changing project, however, you might grasp why people are very concerned and feel threatened by it.

I suspect that we share with many if not most of our Mexican neighbors a desire not to have this community turned into some pint-sized version of Mexico City. I really doubt either our expat or GDL visitors come here to experience a high density urban environment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So, IOW, let the foreigners decide what is best for the locals? They obviously aren't capable of running their own communities.

Who knows, since the locals weren't even invited to this dog and pony show and it was done in English? :)

BTW, they show three proposed projects on their website:

http://gruponaimar.com/index.php/proyectos

As noted in the previous thread, none appear to have been started, let alone completed. The first one is basically rehabbing a historic house, something I did many years ago on my own. I sure don't feel qualified to jump from that to some massive, self-contained urban high rise development.

Lisa, Slainte, Stu and the other advocates, "Where's the beef?"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I beg to differ on the upscale condo market dipping in Guadalajara. At the end of Jesus Garcia in Providencia there are two new huge towers, not completed yet and over 90% presold in 6 months. The old tower I lived in, presold. Both have unit prices of $5,000,000 to $10,000,000 pesos.

The 3 towers by Plaza Mexico are selling fast.

Not all towers are equal, do they have ample parking, security, good views and location? Pool? skybar? Lots of towers going in but the good ones sell out within a few months. Crime is up and few want to live on a regular street where any old Juan can access your front door.

The problem is that to do a tower right it will have to sell for millions of pesos per unit and Chapala isnt that market. El Dorado is an example, a nice complex but out of range for many.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Good point. Looking at their handout, it appears we are talking north of $150 per square foot plus as always with condos, big monthly maintenance fees(for example El Parque), in an area where one can enjoy a single family home for $100 or less and still low tax and water fees, the equivalent of monthly maintenance.

El Dorado is a very good example of the lack of market for this here. Last I heard they were pushing it as time shares. How did that work out? That black hole next to it has been there the entire time I've lived here. Do you see it being completed?

Are previous assumptions about the impending "flood" of NOB retirees really still correct?

http://www.newsmax.com/Finance/PatrickWatson/baby-boomer-retire-work-labor/2014/02/19/id/553483/

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...