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Nationalizing Nafta car at border


EddyR

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Back to original post, check and see if broker can nationalize. Just reported at Tijuana it is not possible as Aduana not open for nationalizing.

saludos

Sonia

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The U.S. government does not do Aduana's bidding. If Aduana is telling us that we must export vehicles through U.S. Customs and the rule is that U.S. Customs exports vehicles that are going into the commerce of a foreign country, U.S. Customs might have a problem doing what Aduana wants since Customs does not have a rule for exporting vehicles that are non-commercial.

The problem Aduana is having with nationalizing chocolates is with Mexicans bringing vehicles into Mexico not with retired U.S. and Canadian citizens nationalizing vehicles.

Joco has things turned upside down. This is a US issue, that US CBP cares about, a lot.

The big problem is that US citizens are having their cars stolen and taken into Mexico. US CBP has a huge interest in enforcing US law to stop American's cars stolen in the USA from being brought into Mexico, hence the previously reported US CBP export requirements for 3 days of checking the backgrounds of American used cars headed permanently out of the USA.

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Joco has things turned upside down. This is a US issue, that US CBP cares about, a lot.

The big problem is that US citizens are having their cars stolen and taken into Mexico. US CBP has a huge interest in enforcing US law to stop American's cars stolen in the USA from being brought into Mexico, hence the previously reported US CBP export requirements for 3 days of checking the backgrounds of American used cars headed permanently out of the USA.

I don't have it reversed.

It was written here that Aduana is expecting U.S. Customs to export vehicles to help Aduana. Check Mainecoons post.

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The requirements to nationalize without a trip to the border will be changing after tomorrow. Once I know I may post.

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I believe because Aduana insists on an approved broker.

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Joco has things turned upside down. This is a US issue, that US CBP cares about, a lot.

The big problem is that US citizens are having their cars stolen and taken into Mexico. US CBP has a huge interest in enforcing US law to stop American's cars stolen in the USA from being brought into Mexico, hence the previously reported US CBP export requirements for 3 days of checking the backgrounds of American used cars headed permanently out of the USA.

I'm sure that's true and it makes sense but the $64 question is whether Aduana will require customs brokers to have this certification in order to import cars.

Do we have an answer to that question yet? Has anyone asked a legitimate customs broker this question yet?

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I'm sure that's true and it makes sense but the $64 question is whether Aduana will require customs brokers to have this certification in order to import cars.

Do we have an answer to that question yet? Has anyone asked a legitimate customs broker this question yet?

Three different Mexican newspapers have reported that formal CBP exports have been Mexican law for importing used American-titled cars since Sept. 1, reported in succession from Nogales, Mexicali, and then Tijuana, as Aduana DF successively cracked down on customs brokers and local Aduana officials at each of these locations, forcing the customs brokers to follow both Mexican and US law.

http://www.jornada.unam.mx/2014/09/07/estados/025n1est is one example.

Mexico's new rule was enacted as law and published in August, so, the people who keep incorrectly reporting personal opinions that the CBP somehow does not require formal exports of American used cars, are over 1 month out of date with Mexican law and over 10 years out of date with CPB law.

Customs brokers and facilitators who have not required and not gotten the CBP exports of American cars prior to making a permanent import into Mexico, operated freely before Sept. 1, but Aduana DF is slowly sweeping out into successively more and more Aduana offices - charging the free-wheeling brokers & facilitators with crimes.

The things that a facilitator or Customs Broker told their customers even just last week, are gradually being replaced with enforcement of both US and Mexican law.

This means that we really should follow US law and follow Mexican law, and not pay so much attention to the advice of facilitators and customs brokers who have not followed the law, and who are now gradually being investigated, and charged with crimes, as the government probes extend their activities out from Nogales, to Mexicali, to Tijuana, to ...

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Even if becomes the MEXICAN law, before you get a warm, cozy, secure feeling, realize that it does nothing at all to stop the flow of undocumented vehicles, possibly even stolen vehicles, from crossing into Mexico. A man driving a 1964 Ford Fairlane convertible pulls up to the Mexican border, California plates, California license, Mexican and U.S. ID, asks where he is from, he says Cucamonga CA. What is the purpose of your visit - visit my wife's family in Guadalajara. That vehicle may never see the border again. This happens hundreds of times a day, until there are now an estimated 6 million "chocolate" vehicles in Mexico. The number of legally nationalized vehicles, save alone those that have export papers, are a meaningless drop in the bucket.

I am not surprised that U.S. taxpayers are not aware of what is going on - it is a non news story in the U.S. But in an era when it costs way over a $1 dollar, to collect a $1 tax dollar, costs should go to the the ones who benefit from more diligence on vehicles leaving the U.S.A. - the insurance companies should be funding this, not taxpayers. Mexico should not buy into these spiraling bureaucracy/tax collection costs, they should learn from the chronic mistakes of others.

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Chillin, can you cite a source for the "drop in the bucket" number of vehicles that are imported legally or are you just posting more opinion? Have you ever been at the border and seen the long lines of cars being imported? I imagine that you really have no idea.

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Here is a source - although it is a few years ago, and concerned mainly with the effect on the sale of new cars in Mexico. The number of chocolates today is at least 6 million, compared to 4 million in 2005. Sorry - the quote function is not operating properly on .pdf today.

http://www.analisiseconomico.com.mx/pdf/5516.pdf

Not related to this issue - jobs in U.S. auto manufacturing sector have a multiplier of 4 to 12. Meaning that every job creates 6 to 8 additional jobs - or a loss if the other way around.

According to the Automotive Motor Industry Association (
AMIA
), more
legal used vehicles were imported than new cars sold in Mexico in 2007. Mexico’s
Secretariat of Economy believes that 1.2 million used vehicles legally entered the
market in 2007, more than the 1.15 million ne
w vehicle units sold. These figures do
not account for the number of gray vehicles
that are currently being driven on
Mexican roads without proper tags, registrations, insurance and required emission
inspections. Some experts estimate this could be in the range of two to four million
vehicles
(Los Angeles Times,
2005).
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Has anyone on this board driven to the US and back, post-all this (after August), and had any personal experiences driving their nationalized but not US-stamped vehicles? I, too, have phoned and emailed CPB to no response and plan a trip up and back in the next few weeks. Wondering what to expect. Were you detained? Did you have to wait the 3 days? Can you start the process to obtain the exit stamps for your title on the way into the US and pick up the paperwork on your return? For those of us who nationalized for permanente, but the brokers did not have the US exit stamp done, what are we to do as we return to visit the US? Can't seem to get an answer; the customs broker doesn't pick up (or have a recording).

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Is anyone actually able to nationalize at the border at this time? We were to get new requirements by tomorrow and now that is extended to Oct. 15. Meanwhile, today I started a motorcycle and a car. The person I work with is in contact almost daily with Aduana and the issues being discussed here I am told even Aduana can not answer. It is my understanding that the CBP requirement, assuming Aduana has actually adopted it, is to prove who is the rightful owner of the vehicle being exported. Note, these latest issues is the result of cars being nationalized that had no right to be. From that I suspect some or more of these cars were stolen. Therefore, 18 brokers, lawyers, judges, politicians and Aduana employees are being investigated. Thankfully, our broker is not one of them but some well known agents recommended on various web boards work for some of those brokers being investigated.

Sonia

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Here is a source - although it is a few years ago, and concerned mainly with the effect on the sale of new cars in Mexico. The number of chocolates today is at least 6 million, compared to 4 million in 2005. Sorry - the quote function is not operating properly on .pdf today.

http://www.analisiseconomico.com.mx/pdf/5516.pdf

If the Mexican govt. is concerned about the slowing sale of new cars in Mexico because of the influx of used cars coming from the US, it seems to me that they just shot themselves in the foot by forcing permanente holders to nationalize.

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Even if becomes the MEXICAN law, before you get a warm, cozy, secure feeling, realize that it does nothing at all to stop the flow of undocumented vehicles, possibly even stolen vehicles, from crossing into Mexico ...

To confirm it is, and continues to be, Mexican law's requirement that used American-titled cars have a US title that has been formally exported by US CBP, consider that El Diaro de Mexico - Juárez reported (Sept. 9, 2014) that in July 2014 Mexican law required the formal US CBP export:

"El pasado 29 de julio la Secretaría de Hacienda y Crédito Público emitió Reglas de Carácter General en Materia de Comercio Exterior para 2014, donde se incluyó una obligación adicional para los importadores de autos.

La regla 3.1.35. indica que “Para los efectos del artículo 36-A, fracción I, incisos a) y d) de la Ley, en la importación definitiva de vehículos usados tanto a la franja o región fronteriza, como al interior del país, se deberá anexar al pedimento, la factura correspondiente y el título de propiedad del vehículo a nombre del importador o endosado a favor del mismo, así como el documento que demuestre la exportación del país de donde procede el vehículo; para el caso de los vehículos que proceden de los Estados Unidos de América, la factura y el título de propiedad referidos, deberán contener el sello de la autoridad aduanera de dicho país, que certifique la legal exportación del vehículo”.

http://diario.mx/Local/2014-09-09_f6418387/frenan-nuevas-reglas-la-importacion-de-autos-salvage/

The repeated disinformation about the US CBP export requirements and disinformation about Mexican legal requirements should not continue to be spread.

The "expert" facilitators and "expert" customs brokers really should know, and follow US and Mexican law.

The US law on this is years old, and Mexican law is months old.

Sharp consumers should choose an expert who knows the laws, and not be misled by repeated mistaken internet advice.

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That's fine now address how that is really going to stop the flow of stolen chocolates instead of just being another government pain in the butt for the honest and people wanting to bring in their own cars.

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That's fine now address how that is really going to stop the flow of stolen chocolates instead of just being another government pain in the butt for the honest and people wanting to bring in their own cars.

MC, do you know what is referred to as a chocolate?

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The US DOJ reported in 2009 that car thieves in the USA had realized that they could steal a US car, and process it through Mexican Aduana as a chocolate or permanent import before the American law enforcement record keeping system could even report it as stolen. The current joint Mexican and US efforts to cooperate in enforcing Mexican and US laws to reduce car thefts - seems to be positive step.

By finally enforcing the CBP export rule, with its 3 day hold requirement, allows sufficient time to check the background of the US-titled used car and identify stolen cars. Mexico and the USA have finally closed this loophole, but again, ordinary folks like us have to jump through extra hoops that were created by a necessity to stop the criminals.

Another benefit? For those who regularly complain about laws that go unenforced and complain about haphazard enforcement of laws here in Mexico, by finally uniformly enforcing US law, and by eliminating the amparos where people paying the Mexican judicial system and judges to temporary nullify parts of Mexican law, we all get what appears to be a consistent set of rules for bringing American used cars into Mexico, versus the inconsistent, continually changing, free-wheeling past practices both on the US and the Mexican sides of the border.

Is enforcing the existing laws now a bad thing? I hope not.

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Very possibly true.

I'm not privy to how the stolen car trade works, and since the cross-border policies are now being worked-out in Washington and in DF, nobody knows what will actually be the final policies, except that both sides have said they now intend to enforce the existing laws.

Both sides have acknowledged that the prior systems had huge systemic gaps that facilitators like Sonia exploited, and that car-thieves exploited, and both governments.have resolved to close those gap. The current laws in both the US CFR and Mexican DOF give the regulators (Aduana and CBP), the rights and the framework, and the authority to enforce, but not necessarily the final details of the policies, which are now being hammered out.

This current situation has some similarities with the process of the 2010 INM law's implementation. Just as we got the INM law in May 2010, but the Lineamientos were not put into place until Nov. 2012 - there is a delay between the published changes in Aduana's permanent import for auto law and the actual details of the policies they will follow.

This is why Sonia and her border collegues don't know what's going on, because they aren't focused on (and are not plugged into) the processes in DF or Washington DC.

Just as none of us knew what the INM Lineamientos would hold, none of us know what details will come out of the DF-Washington joint collaborative efforts.

Speculation: If I were mapping out the route for this bus, I'd put some sort of data sharing into place - where the US govt gives the Mexicans a big database list of US stolen cars, sorted by VIN. and The Mex. Gob. gives the US govt a big database list of used American cars that have been brought into Mexico, including both TIP cars and permanent imports, because the US govt. defines a permanent "export" differently than the Mexican govt. defines a permanent "import".

If the database information exchange took/takes place (very possible, and likely probable since the Mex. Gob. now has this information in a database), each govt. would take some time comparing the new information they receive, to determine just who has broken Mexican law and who has broken US law in the past, and adjust their "new" policies on what happens at the border.

In other words, there are yet more worms to crawl out of these cans.

and if the database information exchange takes place, each/both governments will be grinding away for a year or more, investigating and ultimately enforcing prosecutions of prior violations of both Mexican and US law.

More speculation: Sonia and others imagined and predicted there would be a quick and tidy resolution, with imports re-starting the week after their Sept. suspension. All current signs point to that not happening.

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One clarification to my observations on the last 3 months of US and Mex. Gob. actions:

I believe that the US CBP export process will continue (with modifications that make things more strict), and that the Mexican Gob will issue new directives to allow the permanent import process to start up reasonably soon.

The background investigations and ultimate prosecutions will likely take time for both Mex. and US govts.

Additional Reality: Republicans and conservatives have been beating the drums for how the USA must control the border, and this represents an area where the CBP could show real measurable progress and improvement in "controlling the border", a perspective that indicates there are likely both political and career-advancement considerations driving some parts of the processes.

When career-advancement enhancements and political considerations are factors in govt. processes, it really complicates predicting the final outcomes, which means that Sonia's questions currently have no solid answers.

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