Unauthorized Practice of Law by US Attorneys

[Joco]

Joco what makes you think that you must be a lawyer to represent yourself in the United States??

I didn't say you must be a lawyer to appear Pro Se in the U.S. I said state bars have created laws making books illegal that are published to help non-lawyers file their own suits or represent themselves. It is illegal in most states for people to have groups, clubs or meetings that teach non-lawyers how to represent themselves but it is not illegal for people to have discussions about health issues. Doctors have not pressed to make that illegal.

Texas has sued publishers of books that inform people about how to represent themselves but the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals, the highest criminal court in Texas, said that a defense attorney can fall asleep during a Death Penalty case and that did not cause the defendant to be convicted.

In Texas you will go to jail if you tell people how to defend themselves but an attorney can fall asleep in a Death Penalty case and that is OK, no big deal, after all, he was a licensed attorney.

[Joco]

I have a spin on this subject. Does Mexico restrict an American attorney from practicing law in the American state in which they are a Bar member if the work is physically done from the attorney's residence or office in Mexico? Let's presume the matters do not touch on Mexican law or citizens.

Only the state where an attorney is licensed has any authority over the attorney's practice of law. Mexico has no authority to tell a lawyer he cannot practice law in the country and the state where he is licensed.

Heck, Mexico lets people appear everyday in court who claim to be lawyers and do not have permission to practice law in Mexico from Mexico.

[Joco]

One never knows in the beginning how anything will end. Some things that are unimportant such as a DIF card can be handled by someone with little Spanish. Other things that are more important should be at the direction of a professional as if something goes wrong or someone makes a mistake in the government, who will appeal? It is like filing tax returns, you can hire H&R block if you have itemized deductions or a schedule C because it is not easy or do it because you would rather someone else deal with the hassle.

We have had 2 immigration clients, straight renewals who were denied due to the fault of immigration, one would have thought at the beginning oh how easy, anybody can do it. I appealed both decisions and won and did not charge the clients an extra centavo for the appeals. To me it is part of the service. Had they done it themselves and came to me I would have charged $5,000 to $10,000 pesos for the appeal.

Two other very competent attorneys lakeside who are actively prosecuting cases against bad attorneys are John Brennan and Rafael Arias, ask them about the scams and the need to be vigilant, don't take my word for it.

What were the reasons INM gave for denying the cards and were these temporary of permanent cards?

[Intercasa]

One case it was a change to permanent and they ignored the copies of cards submitted showing he had 8 years in Mexico, other case was renewal of temporary to temporary where they goofed and gave a rejection where they offered a regularization but that would have lost all prior years so would have been starting from scratch and also having to submit documentation again.

[Joco]

One case it was a change to permanent and they ignored the copies of cards submitted showing he had 8 years in Mexico, other case was renewal of temporary to temporary where they goofed and gave a rejection where they offered a regularization but that would have lost all prior years so would have been starting from scratch and also having to submit documentation again.

Figures.

[HaggisLover]

What is the penalty for an American Notary, giving her seal etc. to other expats

while working out of her house, to hide her deception,

she is a Notary registered in the states, but gives her legal advice on several

issues, anyone know the consequences of not filing tax returns etc. and any other

laws being broken with this behaviour thanks

[Joco]

What kind of legal advice can a Notary Public give? Anyone can be a Notary in the U.S. You apply, pay a fee, get a pad, stamp and book and you are in business. You might as well get legal advice from the ice cream man.

Anyone here who uses a U.S. Notary to notarize papers is an :() because the Notary can only notarize in the state where the Notary has permission, not in Mexico and not for another U.S. state.

If someone needs a document notarized, pay more to have the U.S. Consulate's Notary do it. That is the only legal way to notarize.

If you think a U.S. citizen is earning undeclared income in Mexico report it to IRS or to the Mexican IRS, Hacienda.

[snowyco]

What kind of legal advice can a Notary Public give? Anyone can be a Notary in the U.S. You apply, pay a fee, get a pad, stamp and book and you are in business. You might as well get legal advice from the ice cream man.

Anyone here who uses a U.S. Notary to notarize papers is an $%&/() because the Notary can only notarize in the state where the Notary has permission, not in Mexico and not for another U.S. state.

If someone needs a document notarized, pay more to have the U.S. Consulate's Notary do it. That is the only legal way to notarize.

If you think a U.S. citizen is earning undeclared income in Mexico report it to IRS or to the Mexican IRS, Hacienda.

"Anyone here who uses a U.S. Notary to notarize papers is an $%&/() because the Notary can only notarize in the state where the Notary has permission, not in Mexico and not for another U.S. state. "

These statements are not correct in multiple ways. Check US notary rules:

American Notarial Services Abroad:

- Notaries at US Consulates and Embassies can notarize documents for use in any US state.

- US Military officers in a foreign country can notarize documents for use in any US state, as long as the person requesting the notary services is on active military duty, or is a dependent of an active duty person, or is a civilian employee of military operations in a foreign country. Military officers performing notarial duties do not affix a notary seal, instead they simply sign the document and state their rank.

American Notarial Services Performed for Out-of-State Documents filed Outside the Notary's Commissioning State:

American Notaries can notarize documents for another state, as long as several minor conditions are met. Tthe certification language of the out-of-state document must comply with the Notary's state's requirements for certificate language. When an out-of-state client needs an out-of-state document notarized, a US notary, practicing in their commissioning state, is allowed to perform notarial acts over documents from other states, as long as the document is later registered/filed in the client's home state.

[MichiganMama]

I was a notary in Michigan for over 40 years and notarized documents in many other states. Michigan requires that you add the following language:

___________________________

(my name), Notary Public

County of Oakland, State of Michigan

acting in _________ County, State of _________

My commission expires:__________________

Michigan does not require that notaries record notarized documents in a book like California does, but it does require that notaries be bonded. It also requires that the document have a raised seal if it's going to be recorded outside of Michigan.

[Joco]

"Anyone here who uses a U.S. Notary to notarize papers is an $%&/() because the Notary can only notarize in the state where the Notary has permission, not in Mexico and not for another U.S. state. "

These statements are not correct in multiple ways. Check US notary rules:

American Notarial Services Abroad:

- Notaries at US Consulates and Embassies can notarize documents for use in any US state.

- US Military officers in a foreign country can notarize documents for use in any US state, as long as the person requesting the notary services is on active military duty, or is a dependent of an active duty person, or is a civilian employee of military operations in a foreign country. Military officers performing notarial duties do not affix a notary seal, instead they simply sign the document and state their rank.

American Notarial Services Performed for Out-of-State Documents filed Outside the Notary's Commissioning State:

American Notaries can notarize documents for another state, as long as several minor conditions are met. Tthe certification language of the out-of-state document must complies with the Notary's state's requirements for certificate language. When an out-of-state client needs an out-of-state document notarized, a US notary, practicing in their commissioning state, is allowed to perform notarial acts over documents from other states, as long as the document is later registered/filed in the client's home state.

I wrote to use the Notary with the U.S,. Consulate and not a U.S. state approved Notary who cannot notarize documents in a foreign country nor for another U.S. state.

[snowyco]

I wrote to use the Notary with the U.S,. Consulate and not a U.S. state approved Notary who cannot notarize documents in a foreign country nor for another U.S. state.

Sorry, the American Society of Notaries officially disagrees with Joco's personal opinions.

American notaries from one state are allowed to notarize documents for other states when they meet a few requirements, as reported in the section Joco quoted:

"American Notarial Services Performed for Out-of-State Documents filed Outside the Notary's Commissioning State:"

http://www.asnnotary.org/?form=jurisdictionissues

[SoxFan]

Haggislover, the notary I am aware of and use is always upfront about her services and will tell you upfront that she does not offer legal advice. I can't help but wonder if other ulterior motives are behind the post? AJG wanted criminal?

I also wonder about expats working here in general for example computer shops or as nurses who lost their license in states and now are teachers. Makes one wonder...

[purplebeads]

Sox fan.... First of all this thread started out discussing NOB attorneys who shouldn't be practicing here and then morphed into a warning about any attorney, NOB or Mexican who scams . We all know notaries are lawyers or persons with legal training who are licensed by the government to perform acts in legal affairs, in particular witnessing signatures on documents.

Any lawyer or uneducated person who gives out advice or performs services that pertain to Mexican law should be stopped. Mexican law is different and one should have been educated and get whatever credential is legally recognized.

As for computers and nurses! That is so far off. Computers and health principles are universal so that is not even a realistic comparison.

.As a VOLUNTEER nurse who takes BP's at LCS. at no cost, any health teaching we do is health centered. If someone has a BP of 190/100 we would immediately suggest they see a physician, we never recommend a physician or ever recommend a treatment or altering an existing medication protocol. We might give them one of several teaching handouts about what hypertension is and contributing factors and preventive measures . Hypertension and causes are the same here as NOB. So are we teaching? yes! BUT we do not treat we advise to see a physician if we feel the person should be seen. The parameters are the same here and NOB.

Same for Computers....a motherboard is a motherboard! A cell phone is a cell phone! Whether money is exchanged for services is another an issue.( working papers) The content is the same.

BTW not all nurses have lost their license. Some of us are still currently licensed NOB

[Joco]

Sorry, the American Society of Notaries officially disagrees with Joco's personal opinions.

American notaries from one state are allowed to notarize documents for other states when they meet a few requirements, as reported in the section Joco quoted:

"American Notarial Services Performed for Out-of-State Documents filed Outside the Notary's Commissioning State:"

http://www.asnnotary.org/?form=jurisdictionissues

Once again I will explain it slower. In most states a notary can notarize documents in the state the notary is in. In Texas a Texas notary cannot be in New Mexico notarizing documents in New Mexico.

To be on the safe side in case a signature is ever questioned and a court rules a notary stamp is illegal, don't take a chance and pay the extra fee to have the consulate notarize.

A notary internet site is not giving the law in all the states. I also did not find anywhere on that site that it says notaries can notarize documents when the notary is not in the notary's country or state.

From the site you posted a link to, it agrees with me, Read it:

The notary may notarize only when he/she is within the geographic boundaries of commissioning state “A,” and could only notarize within the geographic boundaries of state “B” if he/she also held a notary commission issued by state “B.”

So, the notary who lives in state “A,” but who works in and holds a commission for neighboring state “B,” may notarize only when geographically located in commissioning state “B.” There are no workarounds to get around the limits of jurisdictional authority.

The Situation: An American living in England emailed ASN because he needed a notarial act performed over a document in his possession. He wanted the notarial act to be performed by an American notary.

Notarizing officer at an American Embassy or Consulate—Any American citizen can contact the American embassy or consulate in the country in which he is located. The embassy or consulate can provide notarial services by a U.S. Department of State consular official who is authorized to provide services as a “notarizing officer.”

The notarizing officer in an American embassy or consulate can take acknowledgments and give oaths or affirmations (including oaths or affirmations over affidavits).

[snowyco]

Once again I will explain it slower. In most states a notary can notarize documents in the state the notary is in. In Texas a Texas notary cannot be in New Mexico notarizing documents in New Mexico.

To be on the safe side in case a signature is ever questioned and a court rules a notary stamp is illegal, don't take a chance and pay the extra fee to have the consulate notarize.

A notary internet site is not giving the law in all the states. I also did not find anywhere on that site that it says notaries can notarize documents when the notary is not in the notary's country or state.

From the site you posted a link to, it agrees with me, Read it:

As every time before, I did read it. Unfortunately, Joco has again selectively chosen to report only the parts that support her beliefs and her personal opinions. In legal matters, it simply does not work to grab one quote that seems to support our idea and run with it. We instead need to examine and evaluate all the rules on the issue.

Why give just part of advice, especially when that that half-effort leads readers to the wrong conclusions?

To get the whole truth, continue reading the American Society of Notaries official policies at the website listed above, reading to the "Jurisdictional Limits" section - because this is a jurisdiction issue,

and find the section that I used to report the official American policies above, noting the few minor requirements that must be met. Note that these are the USA national guidelines for Notaries, and that special states like Texas may set their own unique requirements, so check the official rules for the applicable state using a reliable source.

Here's the specific example I described in my 2 earlier posts, from 2008:

Cross-State Notarizations

ASN Hot Tip, June 2008-#2

The Situation: A notary has friends visiting from another state. They have brought with them a document created in their home state that will be used or recorded in their home state when they return. Both signers require a notarial act to execute the document.

The Notary’s Dilemma: The notary is not sure if she can perform a notarial act for her friends who live in another state. She is also unsure if she can perform a notarial act over a document that was prepared in another state for use in that state.

The Solution: Usually, as long as the notary and her clients are together in the notary’s commissioning state, the notary may perform a notarial act over a document to be used or recorded in that other state.

There are, however, a couple of things to consider if the notarial certificate on the document is from another state. The notary should look at the pre-printed notarial certificate to see if it complies with required certificate language in the notary’s commissioning state. If it does, the notary may proceed with performing the notarial act.

If the notary examines the notarial certificate and finds that it does not substantially comply with her state’s required language for that type of notarial certificate, there are a couple more things she needs to know:

1. Does her commissioning state permit her to perform a notarial act over a document that contains notarial language that differs from the language shown in her state’s statutes or administrative rules? Some states provide specific wording for a notarial certificate in a statute, but also state in the statute that the notary may use a notarial certificate with “substantially the same” language as shown in the statute.

2. If both states require notarial certificate language that differs in a substantial way from each other, the document recipient or Clerk of the Court in the other state could reject the document if the notary replaces the preprinted notarial certificate with a certificate that is required by her commissioning state’s statutes.

• The notary should examine her state’s statutes to see if her state permits her to use a notarial certificate specific to another state if the document will be used or recorded in the other state.

• If the notary’s state statutes require specific language on notarial certificates and do not permit the notary to use a notarial certificate with specific language required by another state (even though the document will be used or recorded in the other state) the notary should not perform a notarial act over the document. The fact that she would have to attach her state’s specifically worded notarial certificate in place of the notarial certificate pre-printed on the document may cause the document to be rejected for use or recording in the other state. The safest option in this last scenario is for the notary to tell her friends that they should wait until they go home to obtain the required notarization."

http://www.asnnotary.org/?form=jurisdictionissues

[Joco]

State laws control notaries, not some group they can pay to join.

[afgh]

That is the truth so help you God.

[paradise]

"To each it's own"

[afgh]

and to own his each

[lcscats]

Look always exceptions. I am sure corporations doing business worldwide have all kinds of special notaries and such HOWEVER for my wife who was a Public Notary, Mobile Notary, Real Estate Broker in Oregon she says it says where it is signed on all Oregon Notary forms. She says nothing is valid outside of the state unless you get something special. A normal notary is only valid in the state they are licensed in. Using Oregon forms she would have to lie and say it was signed in Oregon which is something she is not willing to do. My wife also use to be a California Bar lawyer doing Intellectual property work. Listen to her and go to the Consulate if it has any importance at all. Snowco is right as special conditions exist for notaries but normal work is in licensed state only for the most part. Every state may be different also. Be smart and do it right.

[Xena]

I thought this thread was about the unauthorized practice of law in Mexico by U.S. attorneys?

[mod-3]

This has gotten a bit too far off topic. Closed.