Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Nationalizing vehicles inside Mexico


Recommended Posts

2 different US Homeland Security CBP car-inspection supervisors at 2 different border crossings say that US used cars must be inspected by CBP before importing them into Mexico. The supervisors point out that both they and licensed Customs Brokers are following US law, as confirmed by the Homeland Security and CBP websites and 19 CFR 192. The CBP vehicle inspections are only offered at the border, so Canadians can import their personal cars into Mexico, but US law says US citizens must have their vehicles inspected and logged as exported at the US border, before importing into Mexico.

Link to post
Share on other sites

It is always important to read the definitions when trying to understand a statute.

Steve refers to this statute stating that it requires one to export a used vehicle but this statute is for commerce, people who are exporting vehicles for commerce, a business. This is not for an individual who has moved to Mexico and is taking his personal vehicle with him and having it imported into Mexico on the Mexican side.

19 CFR Part 192


Basic Import and Export
For The Trade Community
Exporting a Motor Vehicle
Interpretation and Application of 19 CFR Part 192
Section 192.1 Definitions
The following are general definitions for the purposes of CFR 192.2:
Export. "Export" refers to the transportation of merchandise out of the U.S. for the purpose of being entered into the commerce of a foreign country.
Self-Propelled Vehicle. "Self-propelled" vehicle includes any automobile, truck, tractor, bus, motorcycle, motor home, self-propelled agricultural machinery, self-propelled construction equipment, self-propelled special use equipment, and any other self-propelled vehicle used or designed for running on land but not rail.
Ultimate Purchaser. "Ultimate Purchaser" means the first person, other than a dealer purchasing in his capacity as a dealer, who in good faith purchases a self-propelled vehicle for purposes other than resale.
Used. "Used" refers to any self-propelled vehicle the equitable or legal title to which has been transferred by a manufacturer, distributor, or dealer to an ultimate purchaser.
Link to post
Share on other sites

The U.S. Code:

U.S. Code › Title 19 › Chapter 4 › Subtitle III › Part VI › § 1646c
19 U.S. Code § 1646c - Export reporting requirement
The Commissioner of Customs shall require all persons or entities exporting used automobiles, including automobiles exported for personal use, by air or ship to provide to the Customs Service, at least 72 hours before the export, the vehicle identification number of each such automobile and proof of ownership of such automobile.

I guess if someone took his vehicle across the border and wanted to ship the vehicle by air or ship back into Mexico, customs at the port or airport will make him follow this law.

Link to post
Share on other sites

"19 CFR 192.2 - Requirements for exportation. "

(a) Basic requirements. A person attempting to export a used self-propelled vehicle shall present to Customs, at the port of exportation, both the vehicle and the required documentation describing the vehicle, which includes the Vehicle Identification Number or, if the vehicle does not have a Vehicle Identification Number, the product identification number.

Exportation of a vehicle will be permitted only upon compliance with these requirements ... "

Readers can see for themselves, reading the appropriate portion of 19 CFR 192.2, that there is no mention of this legal requirement being confined to only commercial activities. There is no description of dealers or businesses in this first "Basic Requirements" clause.

Under US law: "A person" still legally applies to private individuals.

This "Basic Requirements" clause applies to individual US citizens, according to both written US law, and according to US CPB supervisors who oversee these operations.

Link to post
Share on other sites

For readers who still doubt whether this rule applies to US people, the "Basic Requirements" clause (a) has no mentions of businesses or commercial entities, and it ends with:

"The person attempting to export the vehicle may employ an agent for the exportation of the vehicle."

Do we really believe that the licensed Customs Brokers at the US-Mexico border crossings are wrong, and that they do not know the laws that they use daily? Licensed Customs Brokers do the US export filings for US private citizens, because it is the law, and because these Brokers do not want to lose their licenses.

Do we really believe that the Homeland Security CBP vehicle inspection supervisors at the US-Mexico border crossings don't know the laws they enforce?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Read all the definitions and it still means exporting for the purpose of selling the vehicle, not a person taking his vehicle into Mexico and having his vehicle nationalized. Read the whole law not the parts you like.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Snoyco, would you answer 2 questions for me? I'm just curious because you post so MUCH here.


(1) Do you live in the Lakeside area, or have you lived here recently for a long time?


(2) Do you have a life outside this Board, like do you do other things besides posting here and looking up facts to meet your requirements and posting them here? i.e. is this Board your life?


Thanks in advance for answering, maybe that will help me understand better why you are here posting so much. :)


Link to post
Share on other sites

Read the whole law. It very clearly states the law is for people exporting for commerce, not private individuals who want to nationalize a vehicle in Mexico for their own use.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/19/part-192

§ 192.1 Definitions.

The following are general definitions for the purposes of this subpart A.
Certified. “Certified” when used with reference to a copy means a document issued by a government authority that includes on it a signed statement by the authority that the copy is an authentic copy of the original.
Copy. “Copy” refers to a duplicate or photocopy of an original document. Where there is any writing on the backside of an original document, a “complete copy” means that both sides of the document are copied.
Export. “Export” refers to the transportation of merchandise out of the U.S. for the purpose of being entered into the commerce of a foreign country.
Self-propelled vehicle. “Self-propelled vehicle” includes any automobile, truck, tractor, bus, motorcycle, motor home, self-propelled agricultural machinery, self-propelled construction equipment, self-propelled special use equipment, and any other self-propelled vehicle used or designed for running on land but not on rail.
Ultimate purchaser. “Ultimate purchaser” means the first person, other than a dealer purchasing in his capacity as a dealer, who in good faith purchases a self-propelled vehicle for purposes other than resale.
Used. “Used” refers to any self-propelled vehicle the equitable or legal title to which has been transferred by a manufacturer, distributor, or dealer to an ultimate purchaser.
[T.D. 89-46, 54 FR 15403, Apr. 18, 1989, as amended by T.D. 99-34, 64 FR 16639, Apr. 6, 1999]
§ 192.2 Requirements for exportation.
Anchor(a) Basic requirements. A person attempting to export a used self-propelled vehicle shall present to Customs, at the port of exportation, both the vehicle and the required documentation describing the vehicle, which includes the Vehicle Identification Number or, if the vehicle does not have a Vehicle Identification Number, the product identification number. Exportation of a vehicle will be permitted only upon compliance with these requirements, unless the vehicle was entered into the United States under an in-bond procedure, or under a carnet or Temporary Importation Bond; a vehicle entered under an in-bond procedure, or under a carnet or Temporary Importation Bond is exempt from these requirements. The person attempting to export the vehicle may employ an agent for the exportation of the vehicle.

The law above is for people who are in the business of exporting vehicles and they have permission to hire a broker to do the exporting for them.

Read all of the definitions and the law is clearly for people who intend to sell exported vehicles in another country.
Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also like snoco to explain why a MEXICAN licensed customs broker, in MEXICO, would interpret anything but MEXICAN laws, meeting MEXICAN legal requirements, could possibly influenced by US laws, up to and including the threat of losing his license. If Mexico does not require this U.S. export malarkey, why on earth would they spend anytime securing it. Show us the MEXICAN law which requires this export permit. It is exactly as Joco says - good work by the way.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Licensed customs brokers who work at the border follow both US and Mexican laws, to provide full thorough bonded and fully legal service to their clients. The licensed brokers I know also have licenses to operate on both sides of the border. Nothing mysterious or peculiar there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Could you list the customs brokers who are licensed in the U.S. and Mexico for import/export because I can't find any on the internet and someone might need one someday. I found one company that says it has licensed brokers on the U.S. and Canadian borders but none found that are licensed for U.S./Mexico customs.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I would also like snoco to explain why a MEXICAN licensed customs broker, in MEXICO, would interpret anything but MEXICAN laws, meeting MEXICAN legal requirements, could possibly influenced by US laws, up to and including the threat of losing his license. If Mexico does not require this U.S. export malarkey, why on earth would they spend anytime securing it. Show us the MEXICAN law which requires this export permit. It is exactly as Joco says - good work by the way.

Once something is in Mexico a broker can't start enforcing U.S. laws, can he? A broker is a private individual not law enforcement and he should be following the laws in the county he is in. What is he going to do, call U.S. customs and tell them he thinks they should come pick up property in Mexico and arrest someone in Mexico?

Link to post
Share on other sites

The licensed brokers I know also have licenses to operate on both sides of the border.

And don't pick your friend "Oscar", the "Broker" you always recommend for the past two years, he is not even a licensed broker in Mexico. Do you have any idea how long, and how much work it takes to become a U.S. licensed customs broker? In Mexico, almost all hold a law degree, that's just the start.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sonia's time to do virtual nationalizing has been extended.

We now have an extension to nationalize until June 15. 56 completed and 29 more in progress. Every one completed is on REPUVE the national database of 23000000 Mexican legal vehicles. Every one has their legal state plates and registration
Link to post
Share on other sites

You can go to one of the brokers at Guad airport and do it there.

Right, that is what some of us have posted that a broker can do a virtual import without taking the vehicle to the border but according to Snowyco all vehicles must go through U.S. Homeland Security to be exported out of the U.S. That U.S. law applies to people exporting for commercial purposes not to an individual getting a vehicle nationalized in Mexico for his own private use.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Once something is in Mexico a broker can't start enforcing U.S. laws, can he? A broker is a private individual not law enforcement and he should be following the laws in the county he is in. What is he going to do, call U.S. customs and tell them he thinks they should come pick up property in Mexico and arrest someone in Mexico?

No one said anything about Mexican brokers enforcing the law on US citizens who did paper-only imports. Making false suppositions and starting rumors like this just unnecessarily raises people's blood pressure.

Sticking with facts: US citizens breaking US federal laws are prosecuted by the US government - which would be Homeland Security and CPB in this instance.

As posted above, people certainly can and do take the Dick Nixon approach: "It's OK to do the crime, just don't get caught."

Alternately, many of us choose to follow our government's laws. Many simply don't like looking over our shoulders, wondering if or when we might get caught.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sticking with facts: US citizens breaking US federal laws are prosecuted by the US government - which would be Homeland Security and CPB in this instance.

Personally speaking,my vehicle will never be driven in the US and I'm only concerned that it's legal in Mexico.

Snowy,have you ever heard of a single instance of Homeland Security going after gringos who didn't bother to go thru the export process with their personal vehicles?

Link to post
Share on other sites
people certainly can and do take the Dick Nixon approach: "It's OK to do the crime, just don't get caught."

Please stop misquoting Richard Nixon, he has never said anything close to what you are suggesting. In hindsight, many of his quotes are very intelligent. Many are also crude, racist, sexist, and homophobic - but those were the times.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Richard_Nixon

Link to post
Share on other sites

No one said anything about Mexican brokers enforcing the law on US citizens who did paper-only imports. Making false suppositions and starting rumors like this just unnecessarily raises people's blood pressure.

Sticking with facts: US citizens breaking US federal laws are prosecuted by the US government - which would be Homeland Security and CPB in this instance.

As posted above, people certainly can and do take the Dick Nixon approach: "It's OK to do the crime, just don't get caught."

Alternately, many of us choose to follow our government's laws. Many simply don't like looking over our shoulders, wondering if or when we might get caught.

Quit misrepresenting U.S. law. The laws you cite are for people exporting vehicles to be sold in another country, that is why it describes the ultimate purchaser and uses the word commercial. The vehicles must be checked by HS to prove they are not stolen.

These laws do not apply to individuals nationalizing a vehicle in Mexico.

You misunderstood the law and instead of letting it go you think if you insist you are right that the rest of us cannot read it for ourselves and know the law does not apply to us.

Let it go. You misunderstood it so drop it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally speaking,my vehicle will never be driven in the US and I'm only concerned that it's legal in Mexico.

Snowy,have you ever heard of a single instance of Homeland Security going after gringos who didn't bother to go thru the export process with their personal vehicles?

Excellent, excellent point.

So far, in this past 6 months of the new "paper-only" imports by "facilitators", these imports are only a temporary situation opened by brief temporary restraining orders (amparos). The CBP (so far) has not chased the Americans who keep those vehicles in Mexico. If the illegally-exported US vehicle is driven back into the USA, (as a Mexican plated vehicle), then CBP checks actual vehicle VINs versus the Mexican paperwork, and they have the opportunity to check them against US databases.

I have no personal experience in trying to evade the law like this, so I don't know the details of current CBP capabilities.**

I did learn from Dick Nixon's years spent trying to cover-up the illegal campaign contributions he accepted, and his grief in covering-up the Watergate break-in, in his efforts to try to find out what DNC chief Lawrence O'Brien (a former Hughes exec.) knew - and to look for dirt on Dems to use later. Dick really spent lots of efforts trying to not get caught, and then covering-up the crimes - things which warn me away from having to duck, dodge, & dive.

**CBP and Homeland Security's prosecution efforts have mimic-ed the US IRS: They have tended to make a few, very public, and very harsh prosecutions of a few individuals, to scare the rest of us into compliance.

In my experience with that US system, they may not investigate or prosecute people for a while, but then, some bureaucrat looking to expand their turf, or an up-and-comer wants to make a name for themselves, and starts investigating and prosecuting people, after years of non-enforcement. Right now, the big majority of cars formally imported into Mexico are coming in through licensed customs brokers who follow both US export and Mexican import rules, which means that so far, the small number of "paper-only" imports through "facilitators" are at trivial levels (not worth pursuing?).

Link to post
Share on other sites

Quit misrepresenting U.S. law. The laws you cite are for people exporting vehicles to be sold in another country, that is why it describes the ultimate purchaser and uses the word commercial. The vehicles must be checked by HS to prove they are not stolen.

These laws do not apply to individuals nationalizing a vehicle in Mexico.

You misunderstood the law and instead of letting it go you think if you insist you are right that the rest of us cannot read it for ourselves and know the law does not apply to us.

Let it go. You misunderstood it so drop it.

Let's agree to disagree.

2 separate CBP supervisors, at 2 different locations, supervisors in charge of the legal exports of privately owned used US vehicles, disagree with Joco's personal interpretation of the law.

People can decide for themselves whether Joco's ideas are what determine CBP policies, or whether CBP supervisors know the rules.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
×
×
  • Create New...