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Must have pension income or wait 4 years to go from temporal to permanente


Kevin K

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Care to link your source, here? I am looking at data from 2013 that says the *median* savings for the 55-64 age group is $12,000 (US). This doesnt strictly preclude 40% having $120,000 or more ... but it certainly does make it darned unlikely. (For both statements to be true, 40% would have $120k or more, 10% would have between $12k and $120k, and 50% would have between $0 and $12k. That would make a black-diamond ski slope look gentle compared to the wealth inequality graph for the tail end of the boomer generation.)

http://www.nirsonline.org/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=768

It uses the Federal Reserve’s Survey of Consumer Finances to analyze retirement plan participation, savings, and overall assets of all U.S. households age 25 to 64, not just those with retirement account assets. This is important because some 45 percent, or 38 million working-age households do not have any retirement account assets.

The best way to drill into the US Census data is to download their Excel files of the ventile data: income data and household asset data broken down into 5% ventile increments and by age ranges. By using the real raw Census data, you avoid the tricks and mistakes some authors use to make their points.

Said another way, search and sort the actual US Census data, making queries that fit the exact circumstance you want to describe: Household assets and Savings for Boomers who have already retired and for Boomers who are becoming eligible to retire, for the top 60'th percentile - 99'th percentile. Simple - once you have the data in Excel.

Typical reports by internet authors tend to leave out inconvenient data, or they simply quote other agencies' analyses of the wrong data - where they don't pool the correct applicable data. Some of the results for Boomers possibly retiring to Mexico can be found at:

Baby Boomers: Retirement? Sufficient Savings? Their Likely Effects on Mexico?
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Have any of the folks commenting here talked with our local professional demographer who has been formally studying and publishing results for Americans moving to Mexico? He's a prof at a Connecticut university, and has lived and worked in the Chapala area for the past 8 years. He has currently expanded his formal studies to evaluate gringo communities across Mexico, but his prior research and publications have focused on the vibrant community of Chapala foreigners. He owns property here, knows the nitty-gritty first-hand, and his wife lives here full-time.

In one conversation with him, you can find that he's no esoteric ivory-tower egghead - and he says 15 years of research confirms what I've been saying

If you base your insights on facts and data: The actual numbers of foreigners getting residency in Mexico, especially in the Chapala area,, have GROWN significantly since the Nov. 2012 INM rule changes. Sure, there have have been lots of emotional appeals on gringo forums by a small number of vocal posters who are personally not happy with the changes.

Sure, the 2012 INM rule changes upset some people's personal plans, but the net results, based on actual data accumulated by INS, by INEGI, and by US professional demographers say that substantially more Americans have moved to Mexico and gotten legal residency since the 2012 INM rule changes - including the Chapala area. The internet-worrier predicted flood of gringos headed back NOB did not happen.

I simply quote facts, in place of vocal internet opinions, when evaluating: who is here, who has been coming, the small number who have left, and who are likely to come.

What dog do you have in this fight?

Does your Mexican wife work for INM and she is responsible for the new rules?

The people with the kind of money that INM is requiring now are not moving to Mexico. They don't need to and don't want to.

It is odd that you are the only person who defends the new INM financial rules and everyone else knows the rules are self defeating. Read how many people have moved here and have acquired temporary or permanent status. Almost all are people who were grandfathered in and not new applicants. New people have dropped significantly and I bet only a small fraction of the new applicants are retirees. Most are foreigners who are younger and working in Mexico.

You must not have property you will want to sell someday or don't want restaurants and businesses around all year but you are in a heavy tourist area and probably don't care. We care where we live.

If quoting facts and pertinent real data seem to make me an advocate of INM, then realize that's just one person's opinion.

Yes, I do own several properties here, and we plan to sell one of them one day.

My family has over 150 years of roots here, so really, all the things Joco muses and imagines, simply are not supported by any facts.

Facts, and now, 18 months of data show that the nay-sayers and critics have been wrong.

Both independent data and official data consistently show: More Americans and Canadians have been moving to the Chapala area and to Mexico since the Nov 2012 INM rule changes, than the small number of vocal people whose bread seems to perpetually fall jelly-side-down know about.

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I would say that you are definetely out of the "common sense" loop on your comments on the Chapala area. You live in Merida, in a Mexican household. Lots of people are leaving right now, many of them to prop up sagging family households in the U.S.A. and Canada. Houses are for sale or rent for an awful long time right now. Seven to ten years seems to be the typical run.

If you want facts - the fact is the new laws are to attract experienced professionals, technicians and entrepreneurs, not pensioners. This what Mexico needs because those skilled and trained in Mexico, are running off to Canada, U.S.A., or Latin America for better paid jobs. Those from China, India and E. Europe are filling those chairs (and often will run too once they have enough experience and references).

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It wouldn't take a whole lot for INM to still keep the riff-raff out while not slamming the door on those who have assets and income but don't have fat pensions. Check out this excerpt from the Costa Rica requirements:

A Pension plan can include amongst others: local, state/provincial and Federal government pensions from most countries, Canadian Old Age Pension System, U.S. Social Security Administration and Railroad Retirement benefits, private pension plans, 401K plans, school district pension, IRA/Keogh distributions, etc. To be a qualified pension plan, the pension must be payable to the resident applicant “for life.” Many annuities can also qualify as a pension.

If 401(K), IRA and annuity income all qualified (and the monthly amount were reduced to a more realistic and competitive [with other countries] level - say $1500 or $2000 - it seems to me there'd be nothing but wins involved all around.

Hopefully some of the facilitators who make their money helping us deal with INM will raise these issues through channels at some point.

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Have any of the folks commenting here talked with our local professional demographer who has been formally studying and publishing results for Americans moving to Mexico? He's a prof at a Connecticut university, and has lived and worked in the Chapala area for the past 8 years. He has currently expanded his formal studies to evaluate gringo communities across Mexico, but his prior research and publications have focused on the vibrant community of Chapala foreigners. He owns property here, knows the nitty-gritty first-hand, and his wife lives here full-time.

In one conversation with him, you can find that he's no esoteric ivory-tower egghead - and he says 15 years of research confirms what I've been saying

If you base your insights on facts and data: The actual numbers of foreigners getting residency in Mexico, especially in the Chapala area,, have GROWN significantly since the Nov. 2012 INM rule changes. Sure, there have have been lots of emotional appeals on gringo forums by a small number of vocal posters who are personally not happy with the changes.

Sure, the 2012 INM rule changes upset some people's personal plans, but the net results, based on actual data accumulated by INS, by INEGI, and by US professional demographers say that substantially more Americans have moved to Mexico and gotten legal residency since the 2012 INM rule changes - including the Chapala area. The internet-worrier predicted flood of gringos headed back NOB did not happen.

I simply quote facts, in place of vocal internet opinions, when evaluating: who is here, who has been coming, the small number who have left, and who are likely to come.

If quoting facts and pertinent real data seem to make me an advocate of INM, then realize that's just one person's opinion.

Yes, I do own several properties here, and we plan to sell one of them one day.

My family has over 150 years of roots here, so really, all the things Joco muses and imagines, simply are not supported by any facts.

Facts, and now, 18 months of data show that the nay-sayers and critics have been wrong.

Both independent data and official data consistently show: More Americans and Canadians have been moving to the Chapala area and to Mexico since the Nov 2012 INM rule changes, than the small number of vocal people whose bread seems to perpetually fall jelly-side-down know about.

I guess the INM data is wrong. It cites exactly how many temporal and permanente cards were issued last year. The number of cards is down and the majority of cards issued are usually for foreign employees so that makes the number of retirees moving here even less.

What difference does it make how many years you or your wife have had roots in Mexico? That doesn't change the fact that fewer retirees moving to Mexico will hurt the rest of us.

I have noticed most of what you have posted has been opinions and the facts you find are to support your opinions. You don't understand that the retirees who want to move to Mexico, to a Third World county that has safety and infrastructure problems, are not the wealthy who can afford to move to tropical First World countries. The retirees who want to move to Mexico are the ones who are now excluded under the new rules.

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It wouldn't take a whole lot for INM to still keep the riff-raff out while not slamming the door on those who have assets and income but don't have fat pensions. Check out this excerpt from the Costa Rica requirements:

What Riff-Raff? I've known a lot of people here who own nice homes and under the old rules they could qualify for an FM3 with $700-$800 a month in SS. That isn't a lot to live on but they had maids and gardeners and lived better than they could up North.

They might not have much money but they didn't cost Mexico anything and they didn't cause problems.

Those are the majority of people who moved to Mexico. They sold their homes, paid cash here for a house and squeaked by on less than $1000 a month Social Security.

The less financially fortunate are the people who want to move to Mexico so they can make their dollars stretch farther. True there are a few with money and the people I know like that are not here all year. The community cannot thrive and be supported by only the wealthy foreigners because there are so few of them.

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An interesting point - and this has not happened to me. It seems like a lot of Chapala and Vallarta retirees are suffering from what I call the "Fargo" syndrome, based on the weasel son in law in that excellent movie. Many of the retirees to Mexico are/were free spirits, not afraid of embracing the new and interesting. For some reason, maybe its a form of rebellion, their adult children are often much more socially conservative than their parent's generation. The scenario then becomes "Gee mom, isn't your little adventure over now - it's time to come back where it's safe, and we can take care of you?"

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What dog do you have in this fight? ...

The people with the kind of money that INM is requiring now are not moving to Mexico. They don't need to and don't want to.

It is odd that you are the only person who defends the new INM financial rules and everyone else knows the rules are self defeating. Read how many people have moved here and have acquired temporary or permanent status. Almost all are people who were grandfathered in and not new applicants. New people have dropped significantly and I bet only a small fraction of the new applicants are retirees. Most are foreigners who are younger and working in Mexico.

You must not have property you will want to sell someday or don't want restaurants and businesses around all year but you are in a heavy tourist area and probably don't care.

We care where we live.

...

What difference does it make how many years you or your wife have had roots in Mexico? That doesn't change the fact that fewer retirees moving to Mexico will hurt the rest of us.

Joco,

Can you please make up your mind with your personal critiques and your questions about my personal life?

First, Joco required that I describe what "dog (I) have in this fight" . and then she imagines and questions publicly that I somehow "do not have property", and further imagines and announces that I somehow "don't care" "where (I) live" .

Next, when I explain that I do care, and that I do have properties, and that I have deep roots, Jocco goes even further off-topic in her personal emotive non-factual suppositions and judgements.

Clearly, from Joco's posts, she has not based her opinions on facts or data: "I bet only a small fraction of the new applicants are retirees. " I prefer official statistics that show that over 1 million more foreigners came to Mexico in 2013 than 2012 (1,003,30 more when counting the major categories) - from the INEGI link Joco offers above, but then contradicts with her personal opinions.

Fortunately, 1 million more people is not the insignificant number that some people imagine and "bet" are coming to Mexico.

Yes, there were roughly 100,000 less Residente permits issued in 2013, but if only 0.5% ( 5 in 1000) of the 19 million total visitors ... were former FM2's who changed to Visitante to KEEP THEIR TIP CARS - then the small drop is explained by 0.5% of foreigners who wanted to keep their foreign-plated cars.

The document from Joco link above, further reports that Jalisco had a 9.3% increase in "Entradas" coming to Jalisco in 2013.... the opposite of Joco's proposed opinion.

Plot 1.10 of the document she cites above shows that 68.5% of those "Entradas" came from the USA & Canada, with 55% coming from the USA. ...

Does this all somehow support personal opinions posted repeatedly that somehow "fewer retirees are coming to Mexico" ?

Emotionally repeating something over-and-over does not make it true.

It is highly unlikely that the 1 million more Canadians and Americans who came to Mexico in 2013 are poor.

A quick look at their clothing, their wrinkles from decades of smiling, their greying temples, and their spending habits all say they are most likely the Middle Class and upper Middle Class Boomers that both US & Mexican professional demographers tell us are coming to Mexico.

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An interesting point - and this has not happened to me. It seems like a lot of Chapala and Vallarta retirees are suffering from what I call the "Fargo" syndrome, based on the weasel son in law in that excellent movie. Many of the retirees to Mexico are/were free spirits, not afraid of embracing the new and interesting. For some reason, maybe its a form of rebellion, their adult children are often much more socially conservative than their parent's generation. The scenario then becomes "Gee mom, isn't your little adventure over now - it's time to come back where it's safe, and we can take care of you?"

LOLOL.

If any of our kids mouthed that sort of thing, they'd stop getting ecards at Christmas.

And, happily, they've come to visit, had a fine time and understand exactly what we're doing here. We, on the other hand, haven't gone back to the "home country" for more than a week.....for a funeral. That was long enough. When we moved here.....we moved.

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Joco,

Can you please make up your mind with your personal critiques and your questions about my personal life?

First, Joco required that I describe what "dog (I) have in this fight" . and then she imagines and questions publicly that I somehow "do not have property", and further imagines and announces that I somehow "don't care" "where (I) live" .

Next, when I explain that I do care, and that I do have properties, and that I have deep roots, Jocco goes even further off-topic in her personal emotive non-factual suppositions and judgements.

Clearly, from Joco's posts, she has not based your opinions on facts or data: "I bet only a small fraction of the new applicants are retirees. " I prefer official statistics that show that over 1 million more foreigners came to Mexico in 2013 than 2012 (1,003,30 more when counting the major categories) - from the INEGI link Joco offers above, but then contradicts with her personal opinions.

Fortunately, 1 million more people is not the insignificant number that some people imagine and "bet" are coming to Mexico.

Yes, there were roughly 100,000 less Residente permits issued in 2013, but if only 0.5% ( 5 in 1000) of the 19 million total visitors ... were former FM2's who changed to Visitante to KEEP THEIR TIP CARS - then the small drop is explained by 0.5% of foreigners who wanted to keep their foreign-plated cars.

The document Joco quoted above further shows that Jalisco had a 9.3% increase in "Entradas" coming to Jalisco in 2013.... the opposite of Joco's proposed opinion.

Plot 1.10 of the document she cites above shows that 68.5% of those "Entradas" came from the USA and Canada, with 55% coming from the USA. ...

Does this all somehow support personal opinions posted repeatedly that somehow "fewer retirees are coming to Mexico" ?

Emotionally repeating something over-and-over does not make it true.

It is highly unlikely that the 1 million more Canadians and Americans who came to Mexico in 2013 are poor.

A quick look at their clothing, their wrinkles from decades of smiling, their greying temples, and their spending habits all say they are most likely the Middle Class and upper Middle Class Boomers that both US & Mexican professional demographers tell us are coming to Mexico.

Asking what dog do you have in this fight meant why are you so interested in keeping the new financial rules? I cannot imagine why any foreigner would want the financial requirements to be so high because it hurts the foreign community, not helps it.

The rest I fell asleep reading so I will not comment. If it takes longer than an hour to read a comment then I'm not interested.

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UNIDAD DE POLÍTICA MIGRATORIA SÍNTESIS 2013 Estadística migratoria


Comparison between 2012 and 2013 Mexico Immigration


Immigration in 2013 is less than 2012. For the next few years permanente cards will increase and temporal will decline. Most permanentes are those who must convert from temporal to permanente With fewer temporals being issued to new people and people moving or dying, the population of foreigners will keep dropping and dropping dramatically.



Trámites migratorios 2012 2013 Var. %



Expediciones de Tarjeta de Residente Temporal (TRT) 1/ 39 404 32 571 -17.3

Renovaciones de Tarjeta de Residente Temporal (TRT) 91 292 79 731 -12.7

Cambio de condición migratoria de residente temporal a

residente permanente 16 355 51 949 n.a.

Expediciones de Tarjeta de Residente Permanente (TRP) 2/ 20 950 54 440 n.a.

Renovaciones de Tarjeta de Residente Permanente (TRP) 67 405 3 250 -95.2

Refugiados 3/ 271 195 -28.0

Expedición de Tarjeta de Visitante Regional (TVR) 4/ 67 636 45 161 -33.2

Expedición de Tarjeta de Visitante Trabajador

Fronterizo (TVTF) 5/ 23 211 15 788 -32.0





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The rest I fell asleep reading so I will not comment. If it takes longer than an hour to read a comment then I'm not interested.

Snowyco's long winded comments do have a sleep inducing effect...
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I would welcome 1 million Gringals, but my goodness - where are they all going to live!?!? I don't know if Snowy has ever been to Chapala/Ajijic/Jocotepec but even the addition of 5,000 newcomers, on top of the 7,000 or so already here, would tap out the housing supply and plug the roads. Where are they hiding the other 95,000 wealthy pensioners by the way

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Asking what dog do you have in this fight meant why are you so interested in keeping the new financial rules?

I cannot imagine why any foreigner would want the financial requirements to be so high because it hurts the foreign community, not helps it.

The rest I fell asleep reading so I will not comment. If it takes longer than an hour to read a comment then I'm not interested.

Joco continues to present her personal opinions as somehow I had said them.

I never said or even hinted that I want nor like the higher financial requirements.

I did say that in spite of the higher requirements, many US and Canadian retirees are coming here, and

in spite of the higher requirements, 40 millions more US and Canadian Boomers have the resources to come here.

Stating demographic facts does not imply approval or disapproval - as they are facts that stand alone.

Facts exist, whether we like them or not.

It's as if Joco is saying "snowyco says there are 5 dogs on his street", so that magically means snowyco somehow thinks that's too many dogs.

Keep it simple: KISS

I think Mexico will continue to benefit from the upcoming 40 million modestly affluent Boomer retirees.

Mexico will likely not benefit from the other 60 million Boomers who have no savings and no household assets.

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I would welcome 1 million Gringals, but my goodness - where are they all going to live!?!? I don't know if Snowy has ever been to Chapala/Ajijic/Jocotepec but even the addition of 5,000 newcomers, on top of the 7,000 or so already here, would tap out the housing supply and plug the roads. Where are they hiding the other 95,000 wealthy pensioners by the way

Well, golly gee......glad you'd welcome more of me, but I'm not a "wealthy" pensioner. Doing just fine, but you won't find me dining at #4 or the new fancy joint on a regular basis.

Those high priced homes sitting idly on the market will get gobbled up if 95,000 wealthy ones hit. Then..........we'll have "SanMIguelization": all the empty land roundabouts will turn into gated enclaves with all the amenities and prices of everything will rise.........and we'll be wishing they'd settled elsewhere......at least most of them. Paz will have to upgrade their wine supply.

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Joco continues to present her personal opinions as somehow I had said them.

I never said or even hinted that I want nor like the higher financial requirements.

I did say that in spite of the higher requirements, many US and Canadian retirees are coming here, and

in spite of the higher requirements, 40 millions more US and Canadian Boomers have the resources to come here.

Stating demographic facts does not imply approval or disapproval - as they are facts that stand alone.

Facts exist, whether we like them or not.

It's as if Joco is saying "snowyco says there are 5 dogs on his street", so that magically means snowyco somehow thinks that's too many dogs.

Keep it simple: KISS

I think Mexico will continue to benefit from the upcoming 40 million modestly affluent Boomer retirees.

Mexico will likely not benefit from the other 60 million Boomers who have no savings and no household assets.

I was gong to say,,,,,Yawn, zzzzzzz

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From past reports it looks like immigration to Mexico started dropping a little before the new rules and really took a dive after the rules went into full effect for 2013.




Trámites migratorios 2011 2012 Var. %


Expedición de documentos para

no Inmigrantes (FM3) 38 305 38 333 0.1

Prorroga de No de No Inmigrante (FM3) 90 528 89 924 -0.7

Cambio de característica migratoria

dentro de la calidad (FM3) 25 249 24 990 -1.0

Cambio de calidad migratoria de

No Inmigrante a Inmigrante 16 603 15 737 -5.2

Expedición de documentos

para Inmigrantes (FM2) 20 172 17 213 -14.7

Refrendo de Inmigrantes (FM2) 59 369 66 551 12.1

Cambio de característica migratoria

dentro de la calidad de Inmigrante 727 662 -8.9

Declaratorias de Inmigrado1/ 2976 2 928 -1.6

Refugiados2/ 247 241 -2.4

Expedición de Tarjeta de Visitante

Regional (TVR)3/ 64 249 62 890 -2.1

Expedición de Tarjeta de

Visitante Trabajador Fronterizo (TVTF)4 29 125 22 079 -24.2


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There you go again - whats with the insults - "Keep It Simple Stupid" is much more politely delivered with justa "Keep it Simple"!

IBM initiated the expression long ago with reference to problem solving......some said it meant "Keep it simple, sweetheart".........but one must wonder.

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Another thought - apparently a lot of the INFONAVIT low income housing is being abandoned. With a bit of creative 'rebranding' maybe they can be relaunched as "seniors residences" - like the one near El Chante/Jocotepec. Why are they such bright colors - so the seniors can find their way home of course.

Could fit maybe 1,000 people in there.

Now only 964,000 people left to go - whoosh, haven't worked this hard in a long time. Better slow down and have a glass of wine.

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Another thought - apparently a lot of the INFONAVIT low income housing is being abandoned. With a bit of creative 'rebranding' maybe they can be relaunched as "seniors residences" - like the one near El Chante/Jocotepec. Why are they such bright colors - so the seniors can find their way home of course.

Could fit maybe 1,000 people in there.

Now only 964,000 people left to go - whoosh, haven't worked this hard in a long time. Better slow down and have a glass of wine.

Back when they built all those look alike houses near San Francisco, it wasn't just seniors who had trouble finding the right doorway. Couple of drinks would do it.

And y'know, Chillin........that's not a bad idea you had, but the ones near Joco are probably going to wind up as weekenders for Guadalajarans. Others, far from where work is all over MX, might do the job.......but they are very, very small. A trailer in Quartsite might be roomier and better appointed.

Have that wine now.

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Another thought - apparently a lot of the INFONAVIT low income housing is being abandoned. With a bit of creative 'rebranding' maybe they can be relaunched as "seniors residences" - like the one near El Chante/Jocotepec. Why are they such bright colors - so the seniors can find their way home of course.

Could fit maybe 1,000 people in there.

Now only 964,000 people left to go - whoosh, haven't worked this hard in a long time. Better slow down and have a glass of wine.

Those condos are not low income housing. They sell for $40,000 USD and up with financing through a bank, and I can't remember which one right now. They have health clubs, pools, tracks, etc.

Mexico would do well to build lower income communities for seniors, foreign and Mexican. They could have golf courses, pools, health club, some assisted living, cafeteria style dinning and probably have a waiting list. Rent could start at $250 US a month for a small unit with maybe an adjustable $200 in fees.

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Another thought - apparently a lot of the INFONAVIT low income housing is being abandoned. With a bit of creative 'rebranding' maybe they can be relaunched as "seniors residences" - like the one near El Chante/Jocotepec. Why are they such bright colors - so the seniors can find their way home of course.

Could fit maybe 1,000 people in there.

Now only 964,000 people left to go - whoosh, haven't worked this hard in a long time. Better slow down and have a glass of wine.

USA Seniors who qualify for section 8 assitence can get cheaper, better accomodation in the good ole USA

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Those condos are not low income housing. They sell for $40,000 USD and up with financing through a bank, and I can't remember which one right now. They have health clubs, pools, tracks, etc.

Mexico would do well to build lower income communities for seniors, foreign and Mexican. They could have golf courses, pools, health club, some assisted living, cafeteria style dinning and probably have a waiting list. Rent could start at $250 US a month for a small unit with maybe an adjustable $200 in fees.

Those cracker boxes in El Chante sell for approx 89,000usd not 40K

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Those cracker boxes in El Chante sell for approx 89,000usd not 40K

Right, but doesn't one of the signs state that prices begin around $500,000 pesos?

The point is they are not housing that was built for the poor. They are built by different builders and are large condo complexes.

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