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What is the story on the LCS gardener, Venancio


Taaffe

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I have been a member of LCS for 20 some years and my father and mother since it's inception and really appreciate all the hard work that the volunteers do in order to keep the grounds and library well maintained. I was wondering what had happened to the nice gardener, Venancio. who had done such a great job keeping the garden so beautiful and organic. I know he worked there for many, many years. can anyone enlighten me?

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Yes, I heard the same thing and also that the thief was caught on camera and in actuality and that it wasn't Venancio. Also that he was only paid a fraction of what was due to him because they had been paying him the legal minimum wage on paper and the rest under the table. This reeks of underhanded dealings on the part of people who should bend over backwards to be fair in our dealings with workers in our town. I would like to know more about this and if there is anything that can be done to remedy the situation.

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I would imagine that in the past without a Exc Director/Secretary and due to the turnover of the board..the paid workers did very much what they wanted and there was (is) little continuity etc...For my self I think that all the workers should be on a yearly contract that is subject to be renewed if their performance is satisfactory. This also avoids carrying huge finical responsibility for pension and significant layoff pay etc..I bet there is a huge amount monies accrued if you tried to discharge them with or without due cause

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I would imagine that in the past without a Exc Director/Secretary and due to the turnover of the board..the paid workers did very much what they wanted and there was (is) little continuity etc...For my self I think that all the workers should be on a yearly contract that is subject to be renewed if their performance is satisfactory. This also avoids carrying huge finical responsibility for pension and significant layoff pay etc..I bet there is a huge amount monies accrued if you tried to discharge them with or without due cause

I don't understand why LCS should try to avoid pension costs. The organization should be an asset to the community - and pay fair wages with includes pensions etc.What are the workers suppose to do? Go beg on the streets when they are too old to work? Most of the expats here are much better off than the local residents. If dues have to go up a few dollars to pay reasonable wages, so be it. The alternative - pension avoidance, legal avoidance etc is - in my opinion - morally wrong.

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I don't understand why LCS should try to avoid pension costs. The organization should be an asset to the community - and pay fair wages with includes pensions etc.What are the workers suppose to do? Go beg on the streets when they are too old to work? Most of the expats here are much better off than the local residents. If dues have to go up a few dollars to pay reasonable wages, so be it. The alternative - pension avoidance, legal avoidance etc is - in my opinion - morally wrong.

It's just as morally wrong for the vast majority of expats who pay their gardeners and maids by the hour without payment into pension or IMSS. We prefer to use a cleaning service as the owner pays the appropriate medical/retirement coverage for her employees.

In the US (and yes, I realize that's not where we live), over the years there has been a crackdown to ensure that people who hire housekeepers, childcare workers, nannies, etc. pay into Social Security and Medicare for them. Otherwise, they too, will find themselves old and weary with little financial support.

Mexico should require something similar here for all the maids/gardeners. I have heard someone say that Mexico already requires this (pro-rata contributions by employees for household workers), but I don't know that for a fact. Spencer??

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I don't understand why LCS should try to avoid pension costs. The organization should be an asset to the community - and pay fair wages with includes pensions etc.What are the workers suppose to do? Go beg on the streets when they are too old to work? Most of the expats here are much better off than the local residents. If dues have to go up a few dollars to pay reasonable wages, so be it. The alternative - pension avoidance, legal avoidance etc is - in my opinion - morally wrong.

My observation is not that people should go and beg on the streets.

Because of the horrendous labor laws in Mexico, many large company's prefer to hire contract employees just because the laws are not employer friendly.

If you look at the hundreds of small food stands etc set up on the side of the road you will understand that the Mexicans do not wait for a hand out but are very entrepreneurial. For example our gardener prefers to be an independent contractor and works by the job

Morality is not the (my) issue

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Do you really think anyone who knows will post? Its a labor issue. Not a forum issue. Don't assume all said here is correct as it is not. Would you want YOUR labor situation discussed here by folks who obviously don't know the facts? As always more here than many know but you can't talk about labor issues or at least you shouldn't.

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It's just as morally wrong for the vast majority of expats who pay their gardeners and maids by the hour without payment into pension or IMSS. We prefer to use a cleaning service as the owner pays the appropriate medical/retirement coverage for her employees.

In the US (and yes, I realize that's not where we live), over the years there has been a crackdown to ensure that people who hire housekeepers, childcare workers, nannies, etc. pay into Social Security and Medicare for them. Otherwise, they too, will find themselves old and weary with little financial support.

Mexico should require something similar here for all the maids/gardeners. I have heard someone say that Mexico already requires this (pro-rata contributions by employees for household workers), but I don't know that for a fact. Spencer??

In the U.S., very few people hire maids or gardeners because it is simply too hard to wade through all the government crap. Instead, the U.S. is becoming the land of the unemployed and the part time worker. I hope Mexico doesn't follow them down this route but these new tax laws, which are causing small shops and service people to close up, sure aren't grounds for optimism. In El Informador last week they reported on a big demonstration by small business people against these laws.

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Do you really think anyone who knows will post? Its a labor issue. Not a forum issue. Don't assume all said here is correct as it is not. Would you want YOUR labor situation discussed here by folks who obviously don't know the facts? As always more here than many know but you can't talk about labor issues or at least you shouldn't.

I agree that talking about one's personal labor dispute should not be aired on this forum, but this is the Lake Chapala Society forum and it is a public entity that should be transparent in its dealings, whatever the subject might be. It is in the best interests of all the members of LCS that the Mexican employees be treated in a fair and respectful way, just as we would expect to be treated. I would like to know why Venancio was fired, and why all the secrecy.

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I think what LCScats was saying is that "labor law" does not allow for public discussion of "labor issues" by employers. So while other people may speculate all they want to about what happened, those involved (who may have another story) can not post about it. An entity may not violate labor laws -- even to satisfy the curiosity of the public. So we will not be told why an employee was fired. And the secrecy is about compliance with the law.

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As a member of LCS I object to our employees being paid "under the table" to make it look like they earn less than they actually do when it comes time to retire or, in this case, "be let go." This is not a labor issue that should be private, but a practice that should be immediately stopped. I am bothered by the double standard: as Americans or Canadians we are able to live here in relative comfort because of the fair labor practices that were put in place and enforced by our governments. For an association made up of members who benefited from fair labor practices, we are morally and ethically bound, as well as legally, to treat our employees the same.

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As a member of LCS I object to our employees being paid "under the table" to make it look like they earn less than they actually do when it comes time to retire or, in this case, "be let go." This is not a labor issue that should be private, but a practice that should be immediately stopped. I am bothered by the double standard: as Americans or Canadians we are able to live here in relative comfort because of the fair labor practices that were put in place and enforced by our governments. For an association made up of members who benefited from fair labor practices, we are morally and ethically bound, as well as legally, to treat our employees the same.

I do not understand how the 2 issues are related can you please elaborate and what immediately should be stopped..do you know the precise details?

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I hope you do have proof that LCS employees are being paid "under the table" in violation of Mexican law. Because, if you do not and you are accusing an organization of doing that, then you are the one who is in trouble. If, however, you do have proof, why are you not reporting it to the Mexican authorities rather than posting it on an expat web forum?

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Guest bennie2

xena thats a horrible thing to suggest. why would someone meddle in legal affairs where they have no right too? to start trouble, thats the MO. guess what? it would come back to them 10 fold. especially in mexico, you are always a step from the unknown. employees & employers are a volitile issue.

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Fact: the gardener worked there for 15 years with no problem.

Fact: he was paid the minimum wage (69 pesos per day) on paper and the rest in cash.

Fact: he was fired and paid off on the basis of the official of minimum wage.

Find out if it is true by asking the LCS how they pay our employees.

P.S. Everyone is anonymous on this board, it is here for us to air controversies and to provide information.

Those interested should ask the LCS Board about the truth.

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FACT: I can say anything I want and say it is a fact. That does not make it true.

FACT: I can throw out an accusation and then tell anyone who does not believe me to go find out for themselves.

FACT: If the person is then told the FACT is not true then I can say the person was lied to. After all, if an organization is doing something illegal, do you think they will honestly answer questions about it?

If you are too cowardly to file a denuncia against an organization to which you belong for something you say is morally and legally wrong, what do you expect members of a web forum to do? Fight your battles for you?

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If you really want answers here is where to ask the question, if you are a member. It is their responsibility to answer concerns such as this issue. Their previous reports and the Boards response are also available online under the governance section at http://www.lakechapalasociety.com/website/Admin/audit_committee.php.

LCS Audit & Advisory Committee

Committee Contact: auditcommittee@lakechapalasociety.com

All inquiries or concerns from the LCS Membership may be submitted to the Audit Committee in writing either by e-mail to the Audit Committee's private e-mail address : auditcommittee@lakechapalasociety.com or by a written note presented to a Committee member or to the Office Administrator in a sealed envelope. Inquiries will be investigated and responded to in writing in a timely manner. This allows all inquiries and responses to be documented. Personal meetings and phone calls will be arranged as required.

The Audit and Advisory Committee's policies and procedures are available in PDF format.

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Don't forget to read the new Constitution, also available at the LCS web site, particularly sections 9 and 10 relating to the elected Board's authority and responsibility over both standing and ad hoc committees. The Constitution is the central governing document of the LCS, if anything conflicts with it, the Constitution must prevail.

If you really want to understand this situation, you should read the Constitution first. When you do, it will be pretty apparent that the Policies and Procedures of the AAC, now really only an AC, conflict with the new Constitution. Since the old AAC predates that Constitution by several years, and was created at a time when LCS had far less well defined governance, that is not surprising. There was a need for it back then.

The strengthening of governance at LCS, the robust electoral oversight of the Board in the new Constitution, and the move to professional auditing will ended that need IMO.

Note that you can also attend the upcoming Board meeting where this topic may be discussed. You can address the Board by submitting a request in writing to the Board at least 24 hours in advance as provided in the LCS Constitution. Board meetings, unless declared closed, are open to the membership and anything said or done in them is public information, also open to the membership. This information is not limited to the short summary found in the minutes.

You should also plan on attending the upcoming AGM and election where no doubt this will be one of the topics.

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The current issues over money and hiring practices are simply a matter of history repeating itself.

The Board and its President usually get elected after the previous Board and President took some actions that were somewhat questionable, though not illegal.

The newly elected people are full of energy and good intentions; they focus on reform, and usually accomplish some improvement.

But, after few years, the 'new' Board and President get complacent, maybe a little sloppy, maybe also a little 'full' of themselves. And they take some actions that are somewhat questionable, though not illegal.

Lather, rinse, repeat.

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Guest bennie2

xena a stranger cannot file a duncia unless they themselves have been treated unfairly. the worker has to do that. if the gardener wants to go to labor board, thats his right. i am sure he knows how things operate.

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