Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

DB Levels at Adelita


cafeadelita

Recommended Posts

No laws broken? That depends. If your exterior standard is 60db, you are significantly louder than the law permits. You are at least partly adjacent to homes so I would think that the residential standard would apply. Even with the commercial standard of 65db, you are not in compliance particularly after 10PM.

Here is a very detailed discussion of sound measurement and how loudness increases with db. The increase is not linear it it logarithmic. Also explained here is the A weighting which is designed to relate the noise level to the frequencies favored by the human ear.

http://www.epd.gov.hk/epd/noise_education/web/ENG_EPD_HTML/m1/intro_5.html

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Here is the table from the earlier thread:

TABLE 1. MAXIMUM PERMISSABLE LIMITS

ZONE

TIMETABLE

MAX PERMISSABLE LIMIT

dB (A)

Residence (outside)

6:00 to 22:00

22:00 to 6:00

55

50

Industrial & Commercial Sites

6:00 a 22:00

22:00 a 6:00

68

65

Schools (outdoor play areas)

During recess

55

Ceremonies, Festivals & Entertainment Events

4 hours

100

After 10PM, you would be limited to 50db residential, 65 commercial. I really am dubious that you would be allowed the commercial standard but that is where we all could use some clarification. Based on your measurement, you are four times as loud (sound pressure level) after 10 PM with the residential standard and considerably louder than the 55 db standard before 10PM. The basic rule of thumb is that loudness double for each 10db increase in the meter reading. Your 70 db reading is 20 db higher than the residential standard.

SOUNDS like you may need to turn it down. On behalf of your neighbors, of which I am not one, thanks for actually addressing the issue. I'll be happy to lend you my sound meter if you want to make more readings with an instrument that is actually designed for the purpose. Just PM me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I downloaded the free "app" on my iPhone to measure sound levels, dBs. I would presume that this free "app" works as well as the $40 US radio shack meter that I bought many years ago and that no longer works.

So thanks a lot for mentioning the "app". And it's been a while since I studied sound, but of course across the street at the closest house the dB level will be less than what was measured above, so the level at the house is hopefully within the public standards posted above.

The point is that you, cafeadelita, are trying

pete

AKA Pedro, el ruco :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Apparently, the older RS analog meters are more accurate than the newer digital ones and in the 60 db range are only off by a db or two. After reading up carefully, I got mine for calibrating my home theater sound system and it worked very well.

It might be interesting to compare this meter side by side with the cell phone app and see which one works better.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Adelita's has stated that exterior, they are at 70db, and if commercial, the benchmark is 65db, or 68 db based upon the hour, For Entertainment Events, (of which they are an entertainment events venue, currently at 2 nights a week,) for 4 hours 100db.. Comparing this to Mexican Fiestas and Entertainment comparisons meaning music distributed by way of the boom box speakers - 100db seems a benchmark and Adelita's has measured 70db. I used to run a venue in San Diego, where someone complained. The venue was near the San Diego Airport on the adjacent block to the tarmac. There is no way our venue was louder than commercial 747's landing right over everyone's heads. I sent in the db readings to the police department who received the complaint. They came out and actually stood there while Southwest Airlines, United Airlines and the Jumbo FedEx plane landed right over their heads. That was the end of discussion. If Adelita's is clocking at 70db, it seems they are at 5db over for a fraction of the hours slotted, and just 2 DB over for the other hours segment, at Commercial. At Entertainment, they are under, taking into consideration that Entertainment Events are allowed 100db for 4 hours. Come on. Let's fight. Or turn down just 5db, and keep someone happy, who obviously needs to be bought a beer. Has someone taken into consideration that another "new venue" on the plaza starts at 10:00PM, and going by there recently... they are LOUD - BTW: So are fireworks. Make sure you have the right venue or source, if you live in the area, happen to be annoyed or in a bad mood, or realize the square is growing.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Can't imagine that Adelita's could possibly hold a candle to the noise emanating from the Tall Boys @ #4 at the moment (10:15 p.m. on Saturday). No question they're way over the limit, as always.

Pretty amazing that this is an ongoing thing, 5 nights a week, in a residential neighborhood, at what is theoretically the classiest (and certainly the most expensive) restaurant in town.

As for the music: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q_nFwwjBlEc pretty much sums it up.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I responded to a thread on this subject a while ago and was fairly mild. Now (after a few glasses of wine) let me state my mind. First, who appointed all these "Sound Police"? None of them agree about the calibration or make of their "instruments" or where the check should take place in terms of the distance. I happen to live a few thousand yards of this establishment and, full disclosure am a regular patron. There is no sound problem with me or any of my neighbors. I doubt if any of these "Sound Activists" live within miles of here, so I would say to them, "Butt Out".. Maybe they should put away their "tech toys", and if they want to contribute to our community adopt an abandoned dog or volunteer at an orphan home.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's a pretty loud night over here in Chapala. Along about 10 o'clock the dueling discos fired up...one's above the Maui Beach restaurant and the other is at the Lacandona Bar. I live about a half-block away and don't really hear much of the music since the block party in front of my house kinda drowns it out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The government appointed themselves noise police, Gringo. Mexicans passed the law and Mexicans will enforce it. As far as I know, the only person that has made a sound reading at Adelitas is the proprietor and based on his readings, if the standard is 50/55 the place is not in compliance at 70 even with the higher commercial standard. And the law requires volume reduction at 10PM, not 11.

Gringo, perhaps you need to read the OP again. You don't seem to understand who started this thread and who took the sound reading at Adelitas. If you are patronizing the place and subjecting your ears to 100db (again measured by the proprietor) maybe the noise doesn't bother you because you've damaged your hearing by subjecting it to too much loud music. According to this reference, your ears can be damaged by 2 hours of exposure to 100db.

http://expecttohearbetter.com/hearing-damage-sound-chart.html

Ronaldo, you are confused. "Events" is not routine entertainment. It is a single event, such as a Rave. That much is clear if one reads the law. As you note, what is not clear is the standard for exterior measurement and the question of which db levels are applied to restaurant/bars in or adjacent to residential areas. I would expect as this new MEXICAN law takes hold, those issues will be clarified.

And Gringo, I think you presumptuous to speak for all your neighbors. If everyone agreed with you, the place wouldn't be repeatedly popping up as a topic of discussion when the subject of too loud music comes up. It certainly isn't the only place noticed for this but in reality there really aren't that many at least outside of Chapala. Chapala is more urbanized and noisy than the other villages here.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maincoons, the db level of the human voice is 60db, you are saying 55 is breaking the law? Surely you are misguided. That would mean people having a conversation outside of my restaurant were breaking noise laws? I'm obviously missing something.

Bar-K on the plaza is still open and still raging with live music. I didn't do a db reading but they are easily as loud or louder than me (and definitely louder than the human voice), the only difference is I am at home long since closed.

I am on great terms with all my neighbors and have been operating this way for 4 years and to be honest the only complaints I have ever received are from people IN my establishment (and I don't blame them, it's bloody loud) but they can protest with their wallets and I'm ok with that (ironically I am more packed on the loudest night – Friday - than any other night of the week).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Cafe, I can't answer your question. The table I posted is from the law. It is pretty obvious that there are a lot of unanswered questions about how sound is to be measured and which standards apply where. but remember, only 10db more is a doubling of loudness. This is one of the difficult things to understand about sound measurements and readings. The logical response when someone sees a reading is 10db more than 50 is to think that it is 20 percent louder, not twice as loud.

So the difference between 50 db and 70 db is four times as loud. The loudness doubles from 50 to 60 and then doubles again from 60 to 70.

Most certainly there are a number of local bars that put out late night noise that could violate this law. Thus far, you seem to be the only venue who is trying to understand the new rules and comply with them and that is very commendable of you.

The basic problem here is that our wonderful climate results in almost all bars being basically open air, which really increases sound levels outside. And too many of these places are interspersed with people's homes IMO. It wasn't a problem when much of the entertainment was acoustic. It has become a problem as venues use more and more amplification. It seems to me that we have both a physical problem of open air venues that can't contain loud music and an zoning problem that ends up with those venues being surrounded by people's homes.

That is why Mexicans apparently reached the point where they felt they needed to address this issue. In the manner of Mexico, it is still not known whether the new law will be enforced (though I saw a story about it being used in Zapopan already) or when and where it will be enforced. You'll recall it took several years before they really got serious about enforcing the smoking law.

Again, thanks for being willing to address this issue and understand the technical issues involved. You might want to consider turning it down a little just for the protection of your customers' hearing as your indoor reading could be damaging to them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it difficult to logically understand the numbers that are stated in the chart. A normal conversation is rated at 60 db but (as I have stated before in other threads) the db level of a Honda EU2000i GENERATOR is rated at 58 db?????? Is there something wrong with this picture? How irritated would you be if you had to sit next to a working generator for a few hours? Surely there must be another parameter involved besides decibels...vibration? what?

Here is a good link about the importance of protecting your hearing. The damage from loud noises is permanent.

http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/noise/

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Well, those generators are really quiet. However, one needs to separate the irritation factor of an unwanted noise like machinery running from the wanted noise (for some) of music. These tables only address noise as related to hearing damage potential, not quality.

I have a lot of hearing loss already and absolutely avoid places that would play music as loud as 100db. That is 32 times louder than 50db using the doubling with every 10 db rule of thumb. Hearing loss is permanent at any age, I can't imagine why anyone would volunteer for it. It is a big nuisance which, among other things, has really impaired my ability to hear and understand spoken Spanish as I endeavor to learn the language.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I find it difficult to logically understand the numbers that are stated in the chart. A normal conversation is rated at 60 db but (as I have stated before in other threads) the db level of a Honda EU2000i GENERATOR is rated at 58 db?????? Is there something wrong with this picture? How irritated would you be if you had to sit next to a working generator for a few hours? Surely there must be another parameter involved besides decibels...vibration? what?

Here is a good link about the importance of protecting your hearing. The damage from loud noises is permanent.

http://www.asha.org/public/hearing/noise/

Normal conversation is rated 50db to 65db and as someone posted 60db is 10X louder than 50db.

I have friends who talk at about 60db to 65db when ranting and loud all the time above normal [hearing loss problem probably] and it does sound 10X louder than most people talking calmly to me.

"Sounds of the City

Sound levels vary depending on one’s distance from the noise source. Below are some frequently heard sounds and their approximate decibel levels at common distances from the noise source. When designated as “dB(A),” as seen below, the measurement is weighted in the “A” scale to simulate human hearing.

Whisper ........................................................... 30 dB(A)

Normal Conversation/Laughter ....................... 50 – 65 dB(A)

Vacuum Cleaner at 10 feet .............................. 70 dB(A)

Washing Machine/Dishwasher ........................ 78 dB(A)

Midtown Manhattan Traffic Noise ................... 70 – 85 dB(A)

Motorcycle ...................................................... 88 dB(A)

Lawnmower .................................................... 85 – 90 dB(A)

Train ................................................................ 100 dB(A)

Jackhammer/Power Saw ................................ 110 dB(A)

Thunderclap .................................................... 120 dB(A)

Stereo/Boom Box ........................................... 110 – 120 dB(A)

Nearby Jet Takeoff .......................................... 130 dB(A)"

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Almost every salon event we go to in a rented "Jardín de Eventos" or inside "Salon de Eventos" has a live band that is playing music at a decent level during the dinner but after when the dancing starts raises it to, to us at least, very uncomfortable levels which makes conversation at the tables almost imposible to hear each other without shouting at the top of our voices. By the end of the night my throat is usually very sore and I have a headache and my ears are ringing when we leave for the rest of the night.

I asked my wife why they tolerate this. She said the younger ones enjoy it that way so us older ones don´t make a big deal out it out of consideration for them. When they have Mariachis for an hour near then end it is acoustic and a good bit nicer to hear and very enjoyable. After that the band plays even louder as people are drinking and their hearing gets impaired. That is when we leave or go outside to talk.

I do sympathize with any neighbor who has to tollerate these salons every weekend until 2AM or 3AM.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Folks listen to what Mainecoon says. 100db is bad and causes hearing loss. Wear earplugs in these places or don't go. If you were at 4 last night listening to the Tall boys you are hurting your hearing. I drove by and in a closed car, it was too loud. I have worked with many vets and the amount of hearing loss is huge. Keep going to those concerts or playing those ear buds loud will at the very least give you

a perm. ringing in your ears at the least (which can drive you crazy) or cause selective hearing loss which means you can't hear part of the music anymore as you have frequency loss. If you do already have hearing loss run to a good audiologist and find our how bad it is and what kind of loss. The longer you wait the less effective the solutions are. If you had horrible hearing aids in the past try it again they can tune the new ones and they have different hearing modes like party which can help in a busy multiple voice environment.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In Chapala early this morning at 3:00am I was woken by music which was at the volume of a typical Carnival event. I am a few blocks from the melacon and any disco, my guess is it was coming from the melacon area but do not know that for a fact. Not sure if the new law had anything to do with it but they only got two songs out at that volume and then silence???????

Should be interesting to see what happens during Carnival this year.

Everyone here seems to be forgetting that you can voice your displeasure about any restaurant or bar that you feel is too loud by voting with your wallet - stay away and encourage friends to do the same until they come in line with community expectations - In this age of cell phones and forums like this it should be easy to pass the word around about which place that should be avoided because they are not behaving like good neighbors and which have an acceptable noise level that fits into the community where they do business.

We all forget how powerful our spending habits can be and how they can influence business to change. If we coordinated efforts to patronize or not patronize any one place I am sure it would only be a couple of times of reduced customer numbers to make them listen and act accordingly.

Perhaps a regular forum topic relating to this where the forum community can point out which businesses are not complying and should be avoided until they change would accomplish getting a quieter community. There is strength in numbers and even more when it comes to income or lack of it, the bottom line is what controls how businesses act.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

These restaurant / bars wouldn't be in business if there wasn't a market for this type of entertainment. My venue is packed on Friday nights which, ironically, is the loudest night!

One thing we need to keep in mind is there is a diverse group of people living or visiting here at Lakeside. To just label people as “Gringo” or “Mexican” is shortsighted. There are diverse demographics within these groups and in thus lies part of the problem. There are those that come here because “it's cheap and the weather is nice” These people generally eat dinner at 5pm, complain about the gardener and then hit the sack at 10pm. Then there are those that are here for those reasons plus the added benefit that this a free and liberal society where they can have a good time and not be locked up in their pastel colored prisons north of the border. Then there are hardworking Mexicans that slave all week and then want to crank up the tunes and let loose on a Saturday night. And on and on. All of us have the right to enjoy our lives but we must do our best to do so without infringing on each others rights. The first group has the right to go to bed at 10pm but your Mexican neighbor has the right to party a bit. Sure, they might be breaking a noise law but let's be reasonable. 3am every night of the week definitely isn't reasonable but if it's just once in a while we need to learn to tolerate it. This isn't a retirement community, this is small town in Mexico. The likelihood of these noise laws being enforced (especially in small towns) is slim to none. One of the prime offenders are the churches (bells ringing, preachers using loud speakers, bombs bursting directly overhead, mariachi at 5am, etc. etc.). Lets face it every town-sanctioned fiesta is rooted in religion. And the most consistent noise in my particular town comes from the church.

What we all have to do is be reasonable and respectful and try and meet in the middle.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Only strict zoning can solve this type of problem. Roadhouses were out of town on otherwise vacant roads for a reason. In town, such businesses were not permitted anywhere near residential areas. Here, with little if any zoning, the residential areas invaded by these noisy businesses will degrade to slums. Folks living near the noise will eventually depart and not be replaced. At the end of the cycle, the market dries up; all of it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...