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Rony

Michoacan for dummies .... and I am one of them

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Michoacanos have had a reputation thru out Mexico for being (peleoneros) for many years,I wonder if that has anything to do with their current problems?

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Michoacanos have had a reputation thru out Mexico for being (peleoneros) for many years,I wonder if that has anything to do with their current problems?

Felipe Calderón was born and raised in Michoacan and seems to fit the peleonero description. The current problems in Michoacan are a direct result of his failed policies while presidente. Anyone who blames the current presidente for the situation in Michoacan has little knowledge of the history that brought us to this point.

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Felipe Calderón was born and raised in Michoacan and seems to fit the peleonero description. The current problems in Michoacan are a direct result of his failed policies while presidente. Anyone who blames the current presidente for the situation in Michoacan has little knowledge of the history that brought us to this point.

I don't think the problem is whose fault it is, the problem is that the Current governments need to make a sincere effort(which they haven't made) to clean it up so that the State and its people are safe, no?

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I don't think the problem is whose fault it is, the problem is that the Current governments need to make a sincere effort(which they haven't made) to clean it up so that the State and its people are safe, no?

If you expect a specific response from me to your question, I expect a specific explanation of what you mean by stating that the current government has not made a sincere effort to clean it up.

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Felipe Calderón was born and raised in Michoacan and seems to fit the peleonero description. The current problems in Michoacan are a direct result of his failed policies while presidente. Anyone who blames the current presidente for the situation in Michoacan has little knowledge of the history that brought us to this point.

Sorry Alex but trying to summarize it all by simply saying that one group (of politicians) is to blame and the other not, really shows a huge lack of understanding of Mexico.

Peña Nieto's ambiguous approach towards the vigilantes certainly has not helped and why did they wait this long to "seriously" intervene ?? And we will not even mention past (before PAN) policies, where 7 decades of government generated almost half of the population in poverty (very much linked to the problems that we are facing nowadays in Mexico, and therefore, also in today's Michoacan).

Furthermore, after more than a year in office now, you can not keep on blaming the previous administration for everything, especially since the interior minister Chong only realizes until a few days ago (January 13th) how bad the situation in Michoacn is (see following article). And what about the La Barca mass grave, discovered a few months ago, and ..... big part of the Michoacan electricity infrastructure under attack by the narcos (also several months ago)..... and only now Chong sees the light ??? + everybody seems to have names and addresses of the leaders of the templarios..... everybody but this government ???

Not sure if now all of a sudden going after the vigilantes (instead of the narcos) is sending out the the right message (politically),.... to say the very least. Surely, something you can agree with, no ??

Conclusion ? Great policies, I have to say....

Like in the animal world....not strong enough to fight the big guys, go after the smaller ones.

So, we better stop the little blaming game, no ?

Instead... read this weekends article on Mexico in The Economist,.... :

Violence in Mexico

Lawless land

Federal troops are deployed to the country’s most troubled state

Jan 18th 2014 | APATZINGÁN | From the print edition

..

AN UNEASY peace has settled on Apatzingán, a 99,000-strong city in western Mexico. The federal government this week sent in troops to disarm “self-defence” groups operating in Michoacán, Mexico’s most troubled state. The deployment came as these groups advanced on Apatzingán, the stronghold of a vicious gang called the Knights Templar, which controls drugs, extortion and other crime rackets.

The vigilante groups sprang up a year or so ago. They say they are protecting their communities against the Templars. Others suspect that the vigilantes are themselves linked to a rival gang, called Jalisco New Generation, which also covets Michoacán’s lawless Tierra Caliente (“hot lands”). The state is criss-crossed by drug-smuggling routes linked to Mexico’s second-biggest port, Lázaro Cárdenas.

Michoacán represents the biggest challenge to President Enrique Peña Nieto’s claim that violent crime has waned since he took office late in 2012. In a speech on January 13th Miguel Ángel Osorio Chong, the interior minister, described the state’s recent bloodshed as “unparalleled and unprecedented” and ordered forces to intervene. The self-defence groups say they are filling a void in law enforcement; Mr Osorio retorted that, if they wanted to protect their communities, they should join the local police instead.

But the government’s position on the vigilantes remains ambiguous. Their self-proclaimed leader, José Manuel Mireles, is recovering from broken ribs sustained in a recent plane crash (“I’m not 100% well,” he acknowledges from a secret site in Mexico City, with notable understatement). When Mr Mireles was still in hospital, Mr Osorio admitted, he had enjoyed official protection because he has “wounded the cartels, particularly the Templars”. That implied that the authorities were tacitly using him. Other self-defence leaders confirm that they have been supported by federal forces.

Mr Mireles says his men will give up their arms only when the drug traffickers have been arrested, leaving the militiamen and the military in a wary, watchful stand-off. In Nueva Italia, a market town close to Apatzingán, scores of young gunmen still patrol in trucks and cars. Some are clearly enjoying the adventure. “Over there you can go to see a movie,” says one, recently deported from the United States. “Here I am living it.”

From the print edition: The Americas

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Both the US and Canadian foreign affairs ministers, Kerry and Baird have become involved in the Michoacan affair. There reunion with the mexican counterpart have been widely broadcasted on most mexican TV channels. I believe that things will move now that the US and Canada have voiced their opinions and promised to provide assistance.

Michoacan is such a beautiful state, I miss visiting and I am sure so are many of the readers on this forum. Lets hope a solution is forthcoming soon, Michoacan deserves better.

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The latest is that the Self Defense Group groups have confiscated 4 homes belonging to the Templars - How embarrassing for the federales etc - when are they actually going to go after the narcos - http://www.proceso.com.mx/?p=362788

CASA-PLANCARTE-440x293.jpg

Michoacán self-defense groups have "confiscated" Four residences leaders allegedly owned by the Knights Templar.

One of the homes, located in Nueva Italia, has three floors, is equipped with jacuzzi, artwork, family photos and exclusive clothing brands, plus pool.

According to the AFP, civilians watching the house claim that it belonged to Enrique Plancarte Solis, Kike , one of the heads of the Templars, where he lived with his wife and children.

Plancarte allegedly fled before the advance of self-defense groups, who say they have also ensured shops, a gas station and warehouses.

Another residence is located in the town of Parácuaro, which allegedly belonged to the Templar leader nicknamed The Boots .

According to the agency Cuartoscuro, the residence has a swimming pool, palm trees and furnished with antique decor.

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Ending with a lighter note, there is hope .... FEMEN protested in front of Bellas Artes, on behalf of Michaocan ----->

23kc5rr.jpg

ToplessxMéxico: Integrantes de la organización Femen se manifestaron frente al Palacio de Bellas Artes en protesta a las recientes reformas del gobierno federal y del PRI y por los actos ocurridos en Michoacán (Foto: Cuartoscuro / instagram.com/sashe)

(Arestegui website :Redacción AN enero 19, 2014 2:37 pm

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Thanks for the article Rony. It seems to be a fairly factual accounting of events. In many ways it contradicts the points you have made. You may wish to read this article once again.

It is no secret that Felipe Calderón began this disastrous war against the drug cartels on the very day he took office as presidente. It is also no secret that busting La Familia Michoacana was one of his top priorities. Following the killing of La Familia leader Nazario Moreno Gonzalez by federal police in 2010, war broke out between various successor factions to La Familia. All hell broke loose. The "divide and conquer" strategy of the Calderón regime failed miserably. This is a prime example of what is often referred to as the "failed policies" of the Calderón regime.

Of course, the downward spiraling situation was an issue in the most recent presidential campaign. Mr. Peña announced his plan to deal with Michoacan during the campaign. He said he would form a new national elite police force to deal with the problem. He made Michoacan his main priority even before that new elite police force was ready. The army was moved into Michoacan. The port of Lázaro Cárdenas was taken from the control of the criminals and placed in the hands of the federal government. A number of smaller towns have also been taken from the criminals and are now administered by the feds. So to say Mr. Peña has either ignored or not been sincere in his efforts to take control of Michoacan would be incorrect. Indeed, he has a lot at stake there.

According to the Economist article, the government and the vigilantes have a history of supporting each other. Now Mr. Peña would like them to disarm or disband. Coming from the U.S., where taking the law into your own hands is generally frowned upon, this seems to be a reasonable request on his part.

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So the value of knowing how we got into this mess is that now we know what not to do. Coming into town with guns blazing didn't work out so well the last time it was tried. Mr. Peña has a different plan of action for dealing with the lawlessness in Michoacan. It's not a secret plan. In fact, it was well discussed during the 2012 election campaign. Does anyone here know what his plan is?

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Does anyone here know what his plan is?

I would like to know(as well as the people who live in Michoacan), what his time table is for removing the scum from the State? I also would like to know how he plans to keep the people safe if they disarm? I also want to know when he plans to get back the towns taken over by the scum. Just curious also, but everyone knows where the stronghold of the Knights is, but they have never made an attempt to return that city to its citizens. Why? Giving us the history of whose fault things are is not helping the poor people who are asking for help, but simply trying to "change the subject" and get off the point of discussion.They need and deserve a secure state, and certainly Mexico has the manpower, and the US money/aid to give it to them. So why doesn't the State and Federal governments do it? Period.The clock has been ticking the whole time this administration has been in office.

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You're a rather demanding fellow, aren't you? Why can't you just say that you don't know what the government's plan is? Ask me nice and omit the partisan rhetoric...and I'll tell you.

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If his policies are so good..... why are so many people desperate to take the law into their own hands ? How many people will have to give their life first before seeing result ?

Why does it take so long to have the leaders of templarios arrested (while everybody seems to know who they are) ?

Forgetting more than 70 years of history, only focussing on very recent history and simpliflying it all in who is to blame and who is not, will not help anybody. The so called bad people are at every level in this society. Therefore, it is not a matter of who is right and who is wrong. And that is an essential element in really understanding Mexico.

You can only start fixing the problem, if you are willing and capable of defying the problem(s) and don't overdo it in giving too much credit to (taking into account my previous arguments), where it is not deserved and whiping all their mistakes of the table.

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Hey Rony, I loved the pics...keep up the good work.

If I happen to meet the FEMA ladies somewhere, I will gladly send them to your house,.... with text and all.

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Incidentally, while a number of people here were decrying government inaction, indifference and insincerity...

First reaction..... isn't it about time ??? They were practically presented on a silver tray, by the vigilantes.

And I applaud your choice of words.....let us talk " sincerety" ,

How about this .... A lot of people will also agree that Carmen Aristegui is one of the most respectable journalists in Mexico. Go to her website and read about how this government manipulated the leader of the vigilantes message. Yet another example of the kind of politics that you are raving about.

http://aristeguinoticias.com/2001/mexico/documento-mensaje-que-el-gobierno-le-pidio-leer-a-mireles-entregado-a-mvs/

Sincerety ??

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Actually, I posted a link to this same story on this same thread two days ago. Come on Rony...pay attention.

And please give me a specific example of how I have "raved" about this government's policies. This is not true. I believe my own statements have been quite dispassionate, perhaps due to my training and experience as a journalist. If anything, you and a number of others here have been raving against the government, its president and its policies.

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Where are the FEMEN ladies when you need them.... they have some work to do here.

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You can get some reliable information on Michoacan from the L.A. Times. Here's a day-old news story:

http://www.latimes.com/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-mexico-vigilante-groups-michoacan-20140120,0,1988923.story#axzz2r8ct4JiK

And here's some background info from last week:

http://articles.latimes.com/2014/jan/13/world/la-fg-mexico-battleground-20140114

If you read to the end of this article you will find some information that relates well to the discussion we have been having here:

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Peña Nieto inherited much of the Michoacan problem from Calderon, whose deployment of troops failed to pacify the state. In November, the administration sent troops and police to Lazaro Cardenas to retake the city and deny the Knights Templar a major source of revenue from its business dealings at the port. Osorio Chong said Monday that the government had succeeded in that goal.

But security analyst Alejandro Hope of the Mexican Competitiveness Institute said the administration's decision to treat the vigilantes as a "useful tool" against the cartels appears to have backfired, emboldening the self-defense groups to go on the offensive.

"They decided they were the ones who were going to set the terms of cooperation with the government, and the government had to follow," Hope said. "Now that has led to a very, very dangerous situation. If and when they decide to move into Apatzingan, it could be a pretty bloody situation."

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Interesting bit in El Informador this morning about the big police and military push in the state.

http://www.informador.com.mx/mexico/2014/508864/6/temen-rebote-violento-en-limites-michoacanos.htm

One could speculate endlessly about what "might" happen during a visit there now at this time. However, after reading the story in El Informador, I would probably agree that now is not a good time to go there given the apparent magnitude of the actions of the government there. Hopefully, they will bear fruit soon.

I also found it interesting that this situation seems to be a demonstration of the new governmental philosophy, to target narcos who mess with the general population and state and local governments, as opposed to using most of its resources to fight the American caused and sponsored war on drugs.

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Alex, .... to finish this really pointless discussion on which government or political party is to blame, .... read the Mexican press and more specifically the Mexican readers' reactions on what is happening (many times they are on the bottom of the article).

Yesterday, I read one in El Informador but did not bother posting it here (but since you keep bringing it up), because we seem to be turning in circles here..... there were 16 reactions to the article and not one was supportive of how this government handled(s) the situation.... that says far more to me than any other foreign press. You really do get a lot more accurate info from the locals (You Tube, Aristegui, Anabelle Hernandez, Pedro Ferriz de Con...) and get a lot closer to what is really going on. The journalists I mention (apart from maybe Pedro) seem to be above any political party or interest group and are excellent and sometimes brave in their reporting.

By the way.... the article was about yesterdays 2 hours gunbattle and fighting between autodefensas and the templarios, where the 4800 federales en 5000 soldiers (in the whole of Michoacan) did not do anything to stop it or intervene. How many more (outside the numerous ones I mentioned in earlier posts) arguments does one need ?

And this is from a PRI orientated newspaper.

My conclusion remains the same.... they all (parties) have messed up big time, recently and in the past and therefore I understand the reaction of the people (autodefensas). I also understand your need to want to simplify it all by, dividing it up between who is good and bad... but most of the time,... that is not how the world operates, not here, not NOB.

Yes, Calderon did what he did (read El Legado de Calderon by Hernandez),..... but reducing it all to one cause, culprit,and refusing to see (or downplaying) current or past mistakes (for lack of a better word) would historically be totally incorrect and even dangerous for the future of Mexico.

Rony

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Sorry Rony, I'm not buying into this romanticized vision of a bunch of well-armed Cowboys saving the townsfolk from the villains...any more than I am bought into the notion that the Knights Templars are doing God's work here to save the people of Mexico from the Devil incarnate. Mr. Peña is working hard to restore civil order in Michoacan. If separating the Cowboys from the Crusaders is a step in that direction, then I support him in achieving that goal.

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Sorry Rony, I'm not buying into this highly romanticized vision of a bunch of well-armed Cowboys saving the townsfolk from the villains...any more than I am bought into the concept that the Knights Templars are doing God's work here to save the people of Mexico from the Devil incarnate. Mr. Peña is working hard to restore civil order in Michoacan. Separating the Cowboys from the Crusaders is a step in that direction. I support him in achieving that goal.

I wonder who the Michoacanos believe in... and why.

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