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Rony

Mexican economy in recession

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The most of the mexicans do not have enough for themselves, (usually because of the laaaaarge families they have) so they do not have any money left to save or share... :(

Very large families are by and large a thing of the past in Mexico. The average number of children per woman has declined from 7 in 1960 to 2.4 in 2012. Here's an article (with statistics from INEGI) that discusses family size as of 2012:

http://www.oem.com.mx/laprensa/notas/n2973938.htm

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He did but he was also a very angry individual and he took it out on other posters, which is why he got banned. I got the sense that he was either deported from the U.S. or had to leave there for other reasons.

I appreciate that More Liana gives us that perspective on this board without the anger.

Curious that I just managed to look back here to be able to straighten out professor coons. Be careful with what you say, someone might email the person being smeared.

Your "sense"is wrong. I was not banned, obviously, I left on my own. Deported from the US? I am a naturalized citizen and served in the US Navy (Tonkin gulf yacht club) during vietnam. Feel free to try and deport me from anywhere you wish and we can meet. Angry? Sounds like YOU in your posts complaining about mexico because they won't let you have your way and drive your car. Someone should be deported and you are always free to leave. I am in my 60's and am raising my second family here in mexico, the youngest is 11. My oldest by another wife is 35. My wife now is quite a bit younger (edited as I made a mistake) than my first wife (dead). I guarantee you I know far more about raising a family here, especially among average mexican's and not the upper 10%, than any of you.

The guy blathering about pirated DVD's made the statement about "all mexican's are buying pirated dvd's" (racist) not that nobody was selling pirated dvd's. Narcos control pirated dvd's and not amm mexican's support the narcos contrary to what you thin.

People here in mexico state do not have any heat in their house (we do not) and it's below freezing a good part of the year, many have wood burning water heaters (look just like the regular kind but you stick pieces of wood in a small door) that only get lit when showering. How many people have them where you live? Rarely does anyone have a washing machine (my wife does, but not a dryer), there are community hand washing areas in some places for those that do not even have the cement washing area. The phone and internet (that most do not have) was stolen last month 3 times. The section that feeds the whole pueblo, we had service a total of 5 days. People send their kids to the cibers to do their tarea's (when there is service). Many do not have tv's, even more do not have dvd players. Some of you really have NO clue where you live do you? The proof was posted back a while ago that 48% made 2200 pesos a month urban while it was 1200 pesos a month. 89% make 6000 a month and less. How many people do you know that are in the lower 48%? How many the lower 89%? How many in the lower 89% could even live in your areas? The government states over 300,000 do not have electricity in mexico state alone, what do you suggest THESE people hook their dvd players to?

I remember there being a thread trying to help a young woman washing clothes by hand, come to mexico state and have a field day, hardly anyone has a washing machine. This is the most populated state in mexico.

Angry? Mostly bothered by those that have us "all figured out". Bothered by the comments of "those being killed by narcos are involved in drugs" and possibly being convinced by the innocents that were killed and chopped up there. Bothered by the time tennis shoes went up on electric lines after a guy was killed and I said typically that's "gangbangers celebrating the kill and marking their territory" and getting scooffed at. Bothered by insinuating that wild dogs do not take people's clothes off before killing and getting scoffed at. I AM angry about many situations here because it is MY country, I was born here. Most of you are "tourists" that have no intention of becoming a citizen.

You should not think for a moment that even though you live in that area, whicich IS mexico, that you actually knoe wnything at all about how the average mexican live. The upper 90% is NOT the average mexican, think about it. If they live there (and you know them) then they are not in the average income.

Prices have shot up here in mexico state (pri controlled) and so has crime. Stores are mostly closed as they get robbed at gunpoint in broad daylight and women abused.

Oh, to the guy that does not like my avatar of the mexican military parade and the soldiers holding the golden eagles.......you are free to leave the country any time. Don't let the door hit you in the backside.

Now I wait for some of you living in a priviliged area to tell me what life is REALLY like here and has been here for most of my over 60 years (in non gringo areas).

elbelgicano is really one of the few that are outspoken and actually seems to know. Now comes the rush to actually get me banned, the last thing people in the priviliged areas want is to see the real life of the "peon's".

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Well said, Toltepeceno! It is very easy to live in a bubble, and bubbles come in all sizes and shapes throughout the world. Sometimes, they burst.

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RV, I just saw your thread. I'm so sorry for what happened to you and how you were treated. Unfortunately it's normal and most mexicans would not have even got in as most do not have credit cards. Best wishes to you and your family, best to you and thanks.

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When I first lived in Mexico--in mid-1981--the house that I shared with 45+ other women was plumbed, but did not receive a drop of water from city pipes. We hauled water in 20-liter buckets from a common pila (I can't think how to explain that). In order to take the water out, we dipped the buckets into the pila and pulled them out, full, by hand. We washed all of our clothing (sheets and blankets, too) by hand. We used the water we hauled for cooking, washing dishes, bathing (a small bucket of water, warmed on the stove to take the chill off) and a little plastic margarine tub used to toss it onto oneself), 'flushing' the toilet (a small bucket of water poured down the toilet did the trick), brushing teeth, etc. We hauled LOTS of water every day and gave thanks that the common pila was only two blocks from the house.

The first family that I met in that city was comprised of mother, father, father's mother, and five little children, oldest about 9 years old. The 8 of them lived in a flea-infested packing crate in the city dump. They had no city services: no electricity, no water delivery, no gas, nothing. Their light came from the sun by day and a single kerosene lantern by night--if they had the centavos to buy kerosene to fill it. They ate in turns, as they did not have enough plates and spoons for everyone to eat at once. They slept on a blanket on the ground; the blanket was so ridden with fleas that every member of the family was bitten on every visible part of his or her body. They scavenged in the dump for salable items, things other people threw away as garbage.

I gave thanks that I slept on a cot in a dormitory surrounded by 9 other women--most of them had never slept in a bed by themselves.

That was--and still is--part of Mexico that none of you will ever know. Today, I give thanks for the life I now have.

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There is almost no culture of charitable giving in Mexico. On another web board, this conversation got me in more hot water than even I am usually in--I wrote an article about it, back then (2003? 2004?) and would share it with anyone who wants to send me an email address via private message--not because I don't want to publish it publicly, but because it is too long to post here.

A couple of years ago, while in Zapopan, I wandered into an event that turned out to be run by a Mexican organization that acts as an umbrella for hundreds of food banks. I had an opportunity to talk with the man who was in charge and he confirmed just what you are saying. He lamented that while a huge percentage of the US population makes charitable contributions and also volunteers for various charitable activities, the percent who do so in Mexico is tiny by comparison. On the other hand, Mexican extended families are very large and it appears that many within those families "take care of their own". That may be why I have seldom seen homeless people in my travels around Mexico, even though there are undeniably plenty of poor people. In the US, by contrast, close family networks of people who live near each other have disappeared in many cases. My own family is scattered all across the US and various other countries. I read a while back that, for the first time, single people made up the majority of US households. However, that may have changed somewhat with all the 30-somethings moving back home (or never having left in the first place) due to the recession. I think that being poor in the US, with no family network, could in some cases actually be worse than being poor in Mexico.

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I hope these posts will open the eyes of a lot of foreigners here at Lakeside.I bet most of them never visited the houses of their maids and gardeners.

We did. They live in an adobe house with dirt floors.The bathroom is outside such as it is. I did not see any appliances other then a comal. . The house is shared is by

3 generations. In spite the humble home ,we were invited to a fiesta.We were treated to a refresco ,not the family, and a very good

pozole. They live in Ixtlahuacan and since the first visit they also invited us to the town fiestas.

More Liana, could you describe a pila as a basin or trough?

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Good post more liana. People here sleep in their clothes for warmth and sometimes the whole family in the same bed. We live about 10-15 minutes from downtown toluca, these are better pueblos than the thousands of pueblos further out. I took several pictures from our roof while ago, one of a house where you can see the soot from the wood water heater. Nobody here, even those with a gas water heater, turn it on except when actually showering. Everything else, including washing dishes or shaving is with cold water. Pueblos further out it's rare if you see a water heater and in some places they have to haul water and kids walk a couple of hours to school. These are not individuals, but pueblos.

2013_09_19_14_53_57.jpg

Our closest neighbors

2013_09_19_14_54_18.jpg

Our Laundry.

2013_09_19_14_54_44.jpg

I invite the Mr. DVR to come and ask people how many dvr's they have stacked in their house. This is the life people in places where you live do not know....or will even acknowledge.

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I hope these posts will open the eyes of a lot of foreigners here at Lakeside.I bet most of them never visited the houses of their maids and gardeners.

We did. They live in an adobe house with dirt floors.The bathroom is outside such as it is. I did not see any appliances other then a comal. . The house is shared is by

3 generations. In spite the humble home ,we were invited to a fiesta.We were treated to a refresco ,not the family, and a very good

pozole. They live in Ixtlahuacan and since the first visit they also invited us to the town fiestas.

More Liana, could you describe a pila as a basin or trough?

A pila would be described as a washing sink (basically). In the picture above our pila is under the brownish shed top. A square sink area with a drain with ridges in the bottom and angled. Next to it a square cement "tank" filled with water used for washing as sometimes the rater does not run as it is supposed to and there is no water. Some pueblos have community pilas that are a number of them side by side under a shed. I know a few people (very few) that have indoor pila.

This picture, from the web, is similar to the ones here in mexico state. There is a big cement area for holding water with a sliding cement top. This is because water is not reliable and you may not have it for a few days. The small part on the right would be deeper, like a sink, with a drain and the slanted bottom with ridges. There would be a faucet but little is used from it as most only have one tank of water for everything and if you use it all you do without. The water runs every several days but not always on time.

p1010043.jpg

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Exactly my point..... go and tell all those people about all the investments and how their economy is becoming a tiger economy,..... something that I had to listen to for a few years now.

To a lot of these people, it must be like a slap in the face.

The hooray stories divert the attention to where it is needed : education, legal system, security, extorsions, poverty...

I believe that it is almost criminal or just naive to continue to broadcast them.

Rony

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A pila would be described as a washing sink (basically). In the picture above our pila is under the brownish shed top. A square sink area with a drain with ridges in the bottom and angled. Next to it a square cement "tank" filled with water used for washing as sometimes the rater does not run as it is supposed to and there is no water. Some pueblos have community pilas that are a number of them side by side under a shed. I know a few people (very few) that have indoor pila.

This picture, from the web, is similar to the ones here in mexico state. There is a big cement area for holding water with a sliding cement top. This is because water is not reliable and you may not have it for a few days. The small part on the right would be deeper, like a sink, with a drain and the slanted bottom with ridges. There would be a faucet but little is used from it as most only have one tank of water for everything and if you use it all you do without. The water runs every several days but not always on time.

p1010043.jpg

Thanks for describing this type pila, with which I am very familiar but of course not everyone on Chapala.com has seen one. The pila I mentioned in my post was enormous, probably 10 feet deep and 10 feet square, and entirely above ground. Now that I think about it, it looked like you might expect an aljibe to look, if it were above-ground and not below-ground. Nonetheless, it was known as la pila.

Here is a link to something very similar to our lavaderos--where we washed all of our clothing by hand, using big bars of soap and scrubbing on the ridged area of the cement. Ours also had faucets, but as I mentioned before, there was no running water in any part of the building. http://malbam.es/WebCampingcalatayud/lavaderos.html

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I hope these posts will open the eyes of a lot of foreigners here at Lakeside.I bet most of them never visited the houses of their maids and gardeners.

We did. They live in an adobe house with dirt floors.The bathroom is outside such as it is. I did not see any appliances other then a comal. . The house is shared is by

3 generations. In spite the humble home ,we were invited to a fiesta.We were treated to a refresco ,not the family, and a very good

pozole. They live in Ixtlahuacan and since the first visit they also invited us to the town fiestas.

More Liana, could you describe a pila as a basin or trough?

No DVR? I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but there are LOTS of people that live like that. There are a lot of people here that have dirt floors. I did not take a picture but a house closer and to the left of the house with the wood water heater is adobe, dirt floors, no water (or heater for that matter).

Think for a minute. Those talking about dvr's think for a minute what it takes to live in your "colonio". If it's 6000 pesos a month or more they are in the upper 10%.

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2013_09_19_14_53_57.jpg

Our closest neighbors

2013_09_19_14_54_18.jpg

Our Laundry.

2013_09_19_14_54_44.jpg

I invite the Mr. DVR to come and ask people how many dvr's they have stacked in their house. This is the life people in places where you live do not know....or will even acknowledge.

I'd be willing to bet that there's a dvd player in the house you pictured,your laundry line looks about the same as our's does,we spend a great deal of time at the rancho where my wife is from, La Tinaja,Guanajuato,try finding that on a map,not too many rich folks there.I'd say more but I'm trying to abide by the forum rules.

Since you don't know anything about me or my personal experiences in Mexico,,,mejor callate.....

Hopefully the moderators will look at the profile under your avatar and take the appropriate action.

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This guy cbviajero made the comment about 100 million mexican thieves buying pirated dvd's. Then went on making ridiculous statements. Working class mexicans? Working but nowhere near representing the majority. Any bets on how many make less than 6000 pesos a month where he lives? Probably well over that which puts them in the well over 90% range. Out of touch? Absolutely.

http://www.chapala.com/webboard/index.php?showtopic=37280&page=2#entry292846

Then I guess there are about 100 million Mexican thieves running around who are'nt to be trusted.

Which is just about the population of mexico. I said:

Ignorant comment claiming all of us deal wiith pirated dvd's, If that were true, there would be no dvd sales here. Downright racist in my opinion.

The fact of the matter is that most mexican's that cannot afford to buy dvd's cannot afford a dvd player. The VAST majority where we live wash clothes by hand, a dvd player is even more of a luxury. Movies are usually a trip to the cine when possible at all.

Here in Mexico the majority of the illegal dvd and cd sales are tied to the narco's Manny, it's fact. He said:

Baloney!!

Go to any tianguies in Mexico,open your eyes, por favor.
A dvd player costs 300 pesos about the price of two "legal dvd movies"!
  • The reality is that almost every Mexican home i have been in whether it was in the very humble ranchito in Guanajuato where my wife comes from or in working class homes in Guadalajara where I live has a dvd player and plenty of 20 peso dvds,that's a fact.So carib try researching the issue a little more next time before you make such ill informed posts.

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I remember him,his handle was Toltepeceno and lived in Toluca.When he claimed that they didn't sell pirated DVDs in his barrio's tianguis because the people there couldn't afford DVD players I sort of lost confidence in his opinions,due to the fact that I've been in many homes of poor Mexicans in different states and have not found his observations to be accurate.

He also made this statement, which to put it mildly is a flat out lie. I clearly said narcos are behind pirated dvd's, not that they are not being sold. People here clearly do not buy the dvd's as many do not even have tv's. Most do not have refrigerators, we DO have an old coke refrigerator, but most do not. The local stores only have sodas and beer refrigerated, but no milk. You have to go into toluca to get refrigerated milk but most have nido or the non refrigerated milk. The electricity is not dependable and nido does not spoil. We use mostly nido for everything, sometimes we get the non refrigerated kind. Having stuff spoil because the electricity is out for days tends to break you from having much refrigerated.

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It seems this thread is no longer about the economy, not that it ever was. There are more people living in poverty that ever in the US, yet it's not in recession. Just becasue the rich are getting richer and the poor poorer does not a recession make. Niether in the US nor Mexico.

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I've lived through a number of economic cycles, all of which had a short period of high employment and relative prosperity for the common workers. This never lasted for long, and then, as now, the disparity in wealth grew. The rich got richer and the poor lost what little they had. Seems to be the world wide condition about now, which brings the meaning of the word "recession" into question. Whose recession are we talking about? Obviously, some people are doing better than ever. Some as badly, or even worse.

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Recession? Pena nieto's reform's include: Rental tax, tax on sodas, etc, tax on medicine, a new sizable tax up front on small mom and pop businesses. Here police working on their day off to shake down people on their day off with out pay (one guess where they get money).

Probably about half in this pueblo rent. That's typical in these pueblos as someone with money usually owns the land. Land is about 1500 a square meter and goes up even more inside toluca and metepec. Even in this pueblo a house of any size will cost 1 million pesos and up, that's with no extra land.

If you go into the "Barrios" in toluca it's more than half rentals, many gated areas with rent houses about in the 3500 peso range. These are grafiti covered areas that are not good but it takes someone very close to the top 10% to afford them. If you are making 6000 then that leaves you with 2500 after rent and before anything else.

Next you have metepec and nice areas of toluca. These are well to do, by most of uss but not by people there, that own their homes behind gated communities. Rent starts at 5-6000 and goes up. How many in the lower 90% earning 6000 and below live there? None unless they are renting a room.

The point is the middle and lower are the ones going to be hurt by this as they are most likely to rent.

Maybe not recession, but times are getting worse.

About 2 weeks ago we saw an old man in toluca throwing up. He then proceeded to pick up the pieces and eat them. He was not drunk or mentally unstable, just hungry. We bought him some tacos and he cried like a baby out of gratitude.

The rich got richer and the poor lost what little they had.

Bingo m'lady and it takes a lot less to be considered well off here as the poor are dirt poor.

I also don't get people saying people are worse off in the US. Check this out:

http://cnsnews.com/news/article/terence-p-jeffrey/census-americans-poverty-typically-have-cell-phones-computers-tvs

Here are the percentages of households below the poverty level that the Census Bureau estimates had the following appliances:

Clothes washer: 68.7%

Clothes dryer: 65.3%

Dish washer: 44.9%

Refrigerator: 97.8%

Food freezer: 26.2%

Stove: 96.6%

Microwave: 93.2%

Air conditioner: 83.4%

Television: 96.1%

Video recorder/DVD: 83.2%

Computer: 58.2%

Telephone (landline): 54.9%

Cell phone: 80.9%

Try having these people live with out electricity, and/or a dirt floor, no windows, etc. To me the comparison between poor here and there is laughable. Ever notice how the poor is flooding here from the US? Wait, is that the other way around? People from here go there and in a short time have wic, food stamps, etc. Do a search on how many children latinos have per family here vs the US, here it's a little over 2 and there it's higher. Why? It pays to have kids there, here it does not. People cannot afford it.

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Again,..... although the word "recession" is in the title and IMEF calls it a recession, try to look beyond the formulas/definitions. Does it really matter ? It is the message that counts (economy is a lot worse than always predicted ). What is the value of the numbers/figures that they are using anyway.

Same with the unemployment figures.... officially very low, but they count someone as working as soon as he/she works one hour a week, doing anything. Go around any town in the country and ask how many people have a job (95 % as they say..... yeah right).

Rony

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An article of note in today's El Universal:

http://www.eluniversal.com.mx/finanzas-cartera/2013/impreso/tener-vision-de-largo-plazo-105111.html

This article was accompanied by a chart--which I am unable to copy here--indicating that according to the WEO (World Economic Outlook), Mexico's economy has fallen from a 3.5% projected increase in GNP in October 2012 to a 1.8% predicted increase in July 2013. Every other economy on the world stage has also fallen, but most not quite so severely as Mexico's--its projected economic outlook has fallen by nearly 50% in the last 9 months.

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Most do not have refrigerators, we DO have an old coke refrigerator, but most do not. The local stores only have sodas and beer refrigerated, but no milk. You have to go into toluca to get refrigerated milk but most have nido or the non refrigerated milk. The electricity is not dependable and nido does not spoil. We use mostly nido for everything, sometimes we get the non refrigerated kind. Having stuff spoil because the electricity is out for days tends to break you from having much refrigerated.

I find it very hard to believe that tiendas in a colonia near Toluca wouldn't have refrigerated milk.Are you posting from your home or do you have to go to Toluca for internet access?

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I'm sure you won't believe anything I say, but it's VERY true. I posted above (I believe) that WE have internet access. It was only available 5 days last month because the cable was stolen that feeds the WHOLE pueblo 3 times that month. It's stolen like clockwork since 2008 and they are just now deciding it was the guy in charge of this zone (telmex) that was doing it along with some other telmex guys. NONE of the locales (what they are called here, they all have roll up doors and no windows for security) have refrigerated milk because the electricity goes out all the time and when it IS on a good part of the time it will not support large appliances. WE have an old coke refrigerator but we put nothing but water or sodas in it, nothing that can spoil. Most do not have washers, nobody has driers, most do not have refrigerators and ALL cooking stoves are gas. Most have a small 2 burner parilla, instead of a stove with oven, as do we. Bodega is the nearest store that has refrigerated milk, but there is usually just a few of each size. The section with nido and non refrigerated milk takes up one side of an isle probably at least 15 feet long. I'm not sure why you would think there really is a need for refrigerated milk when most have no way to refrigerate it.

We split phone and internet with family members in the next house, we share a wall. There are 2 families in the other house so it's split between 3. Go further out from toluca and no internet.

MOST here DO NOT have internet. There are cibers on every street and after school they are full of kids doing their homework. 3 pesos an hour.

I don't know the population of our pueblo, but the next one over is 16000 population, about the size of ajijic. There are thousands of pueblos like this.

There is a whole world out there that people there know nothing of in the very same country where you live. It doesn't help that warm and fuzzy "I'm just like one of the average mexican's" feeling to acknowledge it.

The wife, who has only been in the US about 2 years time in her whole life, said I was crazy coming back this forum because the people live in "otro mundo".

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MOST here DO NOT have internet. There are cibers on every street and after school they are full of kids doing their homework. 3 pesos an hour.

Cibers on every street full of kids,but no stores selling cold milk,what a strange place...

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You know, it hasn't been so very long that SuperLake and El Torito turned their refrigeration units off at night to save on electricity. Ask anyone who's been around at Lakeside for 15 or 20 years.

And think about why standard birthday party fare is cake and gelatina: some brands of gelatina will set up without being refrigerated, and many people still have no refrigerators at home.

And think about why it is customary to eat so many delicious Mexican foods at room temperature--things you might thing would be better chilled.

So many people from North of the Border think it's easy to 'get' Mexico--and ultimately have no clue of what's going on. There is much, much more to every aspect of life in Mexico than meets the eye. Vestiges of ancient customs persist in ways that you cannot understand after a short stint in Mexico, without speaking fluent Spanish, and without conversing with Mexicans of your own social classes and education. And even then...unless you let go of your first-world expectations and generalizations, you ain't gonna get it.

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If it was me, I'd leave it alone. All you are doing is making his point about you. :)

So you don't find it odd that a colonia on the outskirts of a major city would have cybers on every street but no refrigerated milk in the stores?I've spent a lot of time in both rural and urban Mexico,my wife and our son are Mexican and my Spanish is fluent and I frankly don't find Toltepequeno to be very credible.Just my opinion.

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