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Perfect illustration of how screwed up this INM thing is


giltner68

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Today I dutifully went into the village to pay my rent. Ended up in a long discussion with the office manager and a sales person about not only the current state of this disaster, but my personal situation which ended up perfectly illustrating the continued total disconnect by most everyone on visas.

I am at the 5 year point on my FM3, I have to go Permanente or leave the country - and start over. But that elicited a long discussion about me "having to leave" vs being able to request another year of "temporary" residence.

As I stood there both people were on their cell phones talking to "their people", one who knows someone high up somewhere that they trust and the other to apparently a facilitator etc. I stood calmly waiting for the result. One came back and agreed I'm right, I have to leave the country and start over, after a much longer conversation the other one said that I could request an "extension" - for $8,500 pesos. You can guess that my plan is unchanged.

But, it illustrates the continuing confusion that exists within the community of people whom you would respect as knowledgeable and helpful.

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You don't have to leave the country, just let FM3 expire, pay 2500 pesos fine, pay regularization fee of 1000 pesos as well as annual fee and if you have a car you would need to make a border run to get another permit. Extension?????

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Spencer, PERFECT, you have not only made my point of how screwed up this thing is, but how many different ways you can "get around" the system - WOW? A "bribe" of regularization or whatever to whomever - SCREW THAT, I'll take the legal route TU.

I still have to go to the border, I still have to turn in my FM3, I still have to turn in my TIP - so why bother with all the hooha of some local yookel trying to get a new extension or whatever you want to call it and bleed me?

Thank you very much, I'll just go to the border, I'll pay my way, pay my fees and start over, pay my $400 to return and maybe, just maybe - even (in part) hopefully they won't grant me the ultimate privilege of actually returning to this place and I'll have to remain somewhere else, no doubt terribly more desolate, to live out the days of my life without this stupidity and corruption and absolute inanity.

When I paid my rent today I notified them I was returning through the knothole NOB, and if I didn't return buy the almighty grace and goodness of the sovereign State of Mexico, it's minions etc that I would send them them the key to the gate and a thunderous uproar exploded saying "WOW, FIESTA, POOL PARTY, HOOCH FOR EVERYONE" - I bid them adieu.

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You seem very angry and definitely confused. Spencer was not describing a bribe of any kind; rather, an alternative by which you could avoid the trip to the border if you did not have a car to consider. That is a separate issue with Aduana; not INM. It remains an option if you are willing to park your car until it is a more convenient time for you to go north. Of course, you could simply go Residente Permanente, as the new rules are designed for you to do without financial requirements. Later, at your convenience, you could take the car out of Mexico, as many of us will, on a Retorno Seguro 5 day permit. You would then be free of renewals, etc.

Otherwise, you must leave, in order to obtain a fresh Residente Temporal, have to renew it next year and then face the same problem in four years.

The problem is more with Aduana and the car; not INM.

The folks that you described in your post seemed not to be people one would expect to know anything about INM or Aduana. Spencer does know. Perhaps you would be more relaxed if you visited his office to discuss your options.

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The regularization fee isn't a bribe but paid to the government, it is what it is called when you renew late and renewing late is the only way to renew without flying out although you need to take your car up north. $8,500 sounds like what it would be total for a 1 year temporal renewing late and paying the regularization fee and fine perhaps could be a bit more if you needed to translate your bank stmts which they will want to see. The difference is that leaving Mexico makes you go to the consulate and deal with their rules and timeline, although you save the translation fees, fine and regularization fee and instead only pay $40US or so

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Spencer, PERFECT, you have not only made my point of how screwed up this thing is, but how many different ways you can "get around" the system - WOW? A "bribe" of regularization or whatever to whomever - SCREW THAT, I'll take the legal route TU.

I still have to go to the border, I still have to turn in my FM3, I still have to turn in my TIP - so why bother with all the hooha of some local yookel trying to get a new extension or whatever you want to call it and bleed me?

Thank you very much, I'll just go to the border, I'll pay my way, pay my fees and start over, pay my $400 to return and maybe, just maybe - even (in part) hopefully they won't grant me the ultimate privilege of actually returning to this place and I'll have to remain somewhere else, no doubt terribly more desolate, to live out the days of my life without this stupidity and corruption and absolute inanity.

When I paid my rent today I notified them I was returning through the knothole NOB, and if I didn't return buy the almighty grace and goodness of the sovereign State of Mexico, it's minions etc that I would send them them the key to the gate and a thunderous uproar exploded saying "WOW, FIESTA, POOL PARTY, HOOCH FOR EVERYONE" - I bid them adieu.

Some of the people I see who are managing to deal with all this change, with less anxiety have traveled a great deal and lived in several Countries. The expectation is that it will not be easy, there will be frustration, lost documents, incorrect and contradictory information. The objective is obtaining residency and the challenge is finding a way around the hurdles. Getting angry is just a waste of energy.

I expect that Mexico is the only Country you have ever applied to for a residency permit. Have you checked the other expat websites? Seriously, there are exceptions and multiple ways around certain regulations where ever you go. Helping people navigate the Immigration system is an industry in Canada, the US and..... I am betting, all over the world.

Honestly..... I know its a rant, and we all do it..... but why not listen to the choices? You seem to be so angry that you are missing the point that there is a loophole that you can exploit. That is an opportunity, not an effort to shake you down.

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I always enjoy hearing giltner68 complain about how unfair the "system" is, all of which he brings down upon himself just so he can keep an NOB-plated car here, presumably, forever. Mexico doesn't want foreigners to live here beyond four years with a foreign-plated car, but he wants to, so he's going to find a way to do that. Lucky for us, he's about to jump through all these self-created hoops soon, and we can all look forward to hearing him rant about it again in four more years, God willing.

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Is anyone sure (from actual experience) that you can leave the country and start from square one with no questions asked?

Don´t you think that the Mexican government wants people who are living here to have Residente Permanente status? Don´t you think Residente Temporal is really for people who are here for up to 4 years, and if it´s longer they should have a reason?

I may be wrong, but I think it´s not a done deal for folks who have been here forever and want to remain Residente Temporal forever.

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Is anyone sure (from actual experience) that you can leave the country and start from square one with no questions asked?

Don´t you think that the Mexican government wants people who are living here to have Residente Permanente status? Don´t you think Residente Temporal is really for people who are here for up to 4 years, and if it´s longer they should have a reason?

I may be wrong, but I think it´s not a done deal for folks who have been here forever and want to remain Residente Temporal forever.

I wonder if the 180 day visa will always be something you can obtain, regardless of how long you have been in the Country in the previous 12 months. With the recent changes, Mexico is more in line with the resident permit/visa application regulations of other Countires. In most Countries, you may apply to extend a tourist visa, but you can not extend beyond a certain point and, if you leave, you have to wait for a period of time before re-entering the Country with a new visa.

I can see the logic of the 4 year temporary being renewable because it really does make sense for a class of immigrant that plans on returning to their home Country. Specifically, Retired folks, or Ex Pats that are here for employment. Permanent Resident is for those who expect to be here for the duration. I believe most people I know would not be applying if it were not for the effort to avoid paying Capital Gain taxes in Mexico. Many closed on the sale of their homes within days of obtaining their RP card and then.... back home to where-ever.

So many of we NOB folks think we are quite superior in terms of Integrity, but show us a loop hole and watch us jump!

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I wonder if the 180 day visa will always be something you can obtain, regardless of how long you have been in the Country in the previous 12 months. With the recent changes, Mexico is more in line with the resident permit/visa application regulations of other Countires. In most Countries, you may apply to extend a tourist visa, but you can not extend beyond a certain point and, if you leave, you have to wait for a period of time before re-entering the Country with a new visa.

I can see the logic of the 4 year temporary being renewable because it really does make sense for a class of immigrant that plans on returning to their home Country. Specifically, Retired folks, or Ex Pats that are here for employment. Permanent Resident is for those who expect to be here for the duration. I believe most people I know would not be applying if it were not for the effort to avoid paying Capital Gain taxes in Mexico. Many closed on the sale of their homes within days of obtaining their RP card and then.... back home to where-ever.

So many of we NOB folks think we are quite superior in terms of Integrity, but show us a loop hole and watch us jump!

Simply making the Temporal extendable solves this entire problem. Your explanation of the logic is excellent but apparently beyond the grasp of INM.

As far as I know, the legislation did not require the automatic switch to Permanente. INM apparently came up with that one on their own. I would call that writing their own laws.

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Simply making the Temporal extendable solves this entire problem. Your explanation of the logic is excellent but apparently beyond the grasp of INM.

As far as I know, the legislation did not require the automatic switch to Permanente. INM apparently came up with that one on their own. I would call that writing their own laws.

This is another false claim.

The law only allows 4 years on a Residente Temporal.

There is no required "automatic switch to Permanente" .

This false idea keeps getting repeated on the internet by uneducated people, repeated so often it makes it seem real. If you want to stay a temporary resident, then follow Spencer's advice and either make a nice visit back to your home country and apply for temporary residency, or stay here and allow your current temporary resident permit to expire, pay a penalty, and apply at your local immigration office.

Repeating falsehoods unnecessarily increases confusion and raises stress.

Regarding the INM rules, if we take the time to read the law, or even English summaries of the law that have been around for over 2 years, we find that the Ley de Migracion ordered INM to create Regulations that include the specific details of how to apply the law. It is not helpful that a few people keep repeating falsehoods

Instead of making things up that support incorrect imaginings, instead try reading the law and the rules: http://dof.gob.mx/nota_detalle.php?codigo=5276967&fecha=08/11/2012 and LEY DE MIGRACION PARA MEXICO

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Some of the people I see who are managing to deal with all this change, with less anxiety have traveled a great deal and lived in several Countries. The expectation is that it will not be easy, there will be frustration, lost documents, incorrect and contradictory information. The objective is obtaining residency and the challenge is finding a way around the hurdles. Getting angry is just a waste of energy.

I expect that Mexico is the only Country you have ever applied to for a residency permit. Have you checked the other expat websites? Seriously, there are exceptions and multiple ways around certain regulations where ever you go. Helping people navigate the Immigration system is an industry in Canada, the US and..... I am betting, all over the world.

Honestly..... I know its a rant, and we all do it..... but why not listen to the choices? You seem to be so angry that you are missing the point that there is a loophole that you can exploit. That is an opportunity, not an effort to shake you down.

Bingo

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Quit overreacting to everything that is posted here. You were not put in charge of protecting us from information.

I think most people prefer facts and reality, they appreciate knowing the truth, and they appreciate reports of what actually works.

False information that causes readers to make bad choices is really not worth supporting, even when repeated over and over by a few vocal guys. Rather than personally criticizing and complaining, Let people choose for themselves whether they want bad advice based on falsehoods causing them problems or if they want facts that work to get them what they want. Choice is a good thing.

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Regarding the INM rules, if we take the time to read the law, or even English summaries of the law that have been around for over 2 years, we find that the Ley de Migracion ordered INM to create Regulations that include the specific details of how to apply the law. It is not helpful that a few people keep repeating falsehoods

Instead of making things up that support incorrect imaginings, instead try reading the law and the rules: http://dof.gob.mx/nota_detalle.php?codigo=5276967&fecha=08/11/2012 and LEY DE MIGRACION PARA MEXICO

All agencies that are affected by laws are required to write administrative rules to enact the statutes. When the rules overwrite or change the laws or the intent of the law then the rules are illegal.

You have yet to understand the difference between administrative rules and statutes.

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I think most people prefer facts and reality, they appreciate knowing the truth, and they appreciate reports of what actually works.

False information that causes readers to make bad choices is really not worth supporting, even when repeated over and over by a few vocal guys.

You appear to be the only vocal person insisting you are the authority over what people can know.

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You appear to be the only vocal person insisting you are the authority over what people can know.

This falsehood ignores that I repeated Spencer's advice on what works for getting a new temporary residence visa.

Fact: Foreigners in Mexico on FM2s or FM3s, completing 4 years on their visas can simply allow the old visa to expire, pay a modest fine, stay in Mexico and apply for a new fresh temporary residence permit (repeating information from Spencer's posts here).

Some people make up falsehoods and make wild claims creating lots of drama,

others choose boring facts and calm reality.

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This little "factoid" has only appeared in recent weeks, again demonstrating how convoluted this whole thing is. They've taken what was a working system and tied it in knots allowing the local tin gods to do as they will. But the need to go to the border is still there for some of us. I remember back a couple of years ago when they started the new $400 deposit thing, I said that was the first shoe to drop, next they needed to find a way to run the rest of us through the "milking chutes" - well, here it is.

Now, my situation is a bit different than most, I'll only be here another year so going the Permanente route with nationalization makes no sense, however, dragging an empty trailer 1,400 miles doesn't make a lot of sense either, but that's the route I've committed to because it meets the law.

The regularization fee is exactly a bribe to the MXN government. When I was 6 months late on getting my plates NOB I wasn't penalized with any exceptional fee, I simply paid for the time I had the plates. This is a "bribe" to cover your sins and assuming it's not going to a corrupt entity is sophistry.

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The bottom line on all this is the impact on new potential retirees coming to Mexico. Until we see the data on this, it is anyone's guess.

Giltner, what "factoid" are you referring to? The Temporal loophole? Yes, that does appear to be very new. It does appear that I am incorrect about the four year Temporal limit, it is buried far down in the legislation. However, I see nothing there that required INM to count prior years of FM2/FM3 towards that four years.

Perhaps Snowyco in his infinite knowledge can share with us specifically where that is so stipulated. Particularly since I recall that INM was first not doing this and then started doing so shortly after the first of the year.

To my knowledge, INM did this on their own. That is what I was referring to in my imperfect way. Snowyco, if this is incorrect, please cite the section of the law that requires INM to apply prior years on the old visas to the new law.

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The bottom line on all this is the impact on new potential retirees coming to Mexico. Until we see the data on this, it is anyone's guess.

Giltner, what "factoid" are you referring to? The Temporal loophole? Yes, that does appear to be very new. It does appear that I am incorrect about the four year Temporal limit, it is buried far down in the legislation. However, I see nothing there that required INM to count prior years of FM2/FM3 towards that four years.

Perhaps Snowyco in his infinite knowledge can share with us specifically where that is so stipulated. Particularly since I recall that INM was first not doing this and then started doing so shortly after the first of the year.

To my knowledge, INM did this on their own. That is what I was referring to in my imperfect way. Snowyco, if this is incorrect, please cite the section of the law that requires INM to apply prior years on the old visas to the new law.

Yes, your thinking and logic continue to lead to incorrect assumptions. As I have suggested for months, read the law and the lineamientos, and give good advice based on them. To answer your questions, start with the Transitos. Transitos by definition describe the rules for transitions between the former law and the current law. Your answer is in there.

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The only way to understand it is to read the law, which is in Spanish and over 30 pages long. I struggled through it before losing sight in what was my good eye, so cannot do it again. Yes, the answers are there and there is no need to argue the fine points. It is also true that it has taken some time for various INM offices to get the details straight. We have to understand that many agents lack good reading/thinking skills, even in their own language; as do many posters here. Relax and get help from Spencer, or others, who have made a study of the law, rules and actual applications in recent situations. It is logical, fair but sometimes inconvenient, and achieves the aims of Mexico, while solving some problems with the earlier law, which affected others; not retirees, etc.

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Yes, your thinking and logic continue to lead to incorrect assumptions. As I have suggested for months, read the law and the lineamientos, and give good advice based on them. To answer your questions, start with the Transitos. Transitos by definition describe the rules for transitions between the former law and the current law. Your answer is in there.

Steve quit trying to fake us out with nonsensical answers.

Mainecoons asked you about the INM rules not laws. The INM rules have changed the law and that is our problem with the rules.

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Steve quit trying to fake us out with nonsensical answers.

Mainecoons asked you about the INM rules not laws. The INM rules have changed the law and that is our problem with the rules.

This is yet another falsehood that creates unnecessary worries and drama for people who are new to this.

Please stick with facts. The lineamientos did not change the law, they added much needed specific details. The lineaminetos fulfilled the requirements of the law. The law required INM to write the details of the rules needed to complete the law. Those details in the rules fit the law's basic requirements. As RV pointed out, the immigration offices have been gradually settling in on how to implement the rules, and we should give advice that complies with those realities.

Please read the 2 year old law, and read the 10 month old lineaminetos, then you will have a basis to give good factual advice.

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