Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Friends and Family afraid to visit Mexico?


margojean

Recommended Posts

See this website

http://howsafeismexico.com/index.html

Stunning current (2012) data on how much safer Mexico is than US and Canada.in terms of murder, kidnapping and rape.

Sources listed

  • U.N. World Health Organization
  • RRS y Associados-Prominix
  • U.S. FBI
  • U.S. State Department
  • NationMaster.com
  • USA Today
Link to post
Share on other sites

See this website

http://howsafeismexico.com/index.html

Stunning current (2012) data on how much safer Mexico is than US and Canada.in terms of murder, kidnapping and rape.

Sources listed

  • U.N. World Health Organization
  • RRS y Associados-Prominix
  • U.S. FBI
  • U.S. State Department
  • NationMaster.com
  • USA Today

The travel company that brought these statistics together also have a vested interest in promoting their travel business, I presume. Being objective it appears to be nothing to clap about as things are not always reported, such as express kidnappings and extortion, here as that is more dangerous to do because of how highly organized it is compared to in the US and Canada so I feel this statistic is unknowable here.

Living in Mexico and knowing how it´s citizens have their own way of taking into consideration what is secure that many tourist have no knowledge of and probably do not follow the norm here but the norm back home.

If you live here for awhile you "should" follow the citizens way and forget about what you think is secure back where you used to live. IMO

This article leaves out so many things I feel it is not that accurate.

Link to post
Share on other sites

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

UNODC murder rates most recent year

Homicide rates are left out of the article which is suspect.

Canada is. 1.6 rate per 100,000 and total count is 554

USA is: 4.8 and total count is 14,748

Mexico is: 23.7 and total count is 27,199

Link to post
Share on other sites

Statics mean little to people, it's just static to be ignored. The Canadian lady that rented my casita for 5 winters has been all over the world and coming to MX for probably 20 years, she decided a year ago she wasn't coming back. I tried for a time to reason and dissuade her, but her "perception" was not going to change and I gave up. I found much like "pushing" rope, once people set it in their minds, it's not going to change and much like NOT imagining a blue horse.

And, to be honest, people no longer believe stats, pols and gov throw out the most outrageous numbers that are totally unbelievable that the least educated know are wrong - so, why should they believe these?

Link to post
Share on other sites

USA 14,748 and Mexico is 27,199, and Mexico is safer? People can use statistics to show anything they want to show and the uneducated person in statistical use will not realize they are comparing apples to oranges. Check out how many people here are fooled, and these are educated people. :)

Past peer-reviewed studies using over 2 million patient records, counting unnecessary deaths caused by US physicians and hospitals, show that they kill 180.000 thousand US patients every year - as counted in 2003. If we compare 180,000 killed annually by physician errors, who is the real menace to families and friends? Using the logic proposed above, the 27,000 people counted as killed in Mexico pale in comparison to the 180,000 annual body counts of Americans killed by physician and hospital errors. Stay out Mexico, or stay out of US hospitals? Maybe both are a bad bet?

Or, can the choices off an educated adult make all the difference ?

Link to post
Share on other sites

For what it's worth, here is an official report which INEGI ( the government statistics people) released on July 30 showing homicides by state for years 2006-2012:

http://www.inegi.org.mx/inegi/contenidos/espanol/prensa/Boletines/Boletin/Comunicados/Especiales/2013/julio/comunica9.pdf

Jalisco had a rate of 20 murders per 100,000 which was just under the average for all of MExico at 22 per 100,000.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The difference in USA vs Mexico homicides, for me, is the USA homicides are more random, making less sense, as if any human death makes sense. The recent examples of the massacres in public places in the USA comes to mind, and the statistics from individual USA cities, where homicides are one-on-one and can be for reasons as random as someone you don't like the looks of. In my home city of Baltimore, the crime is completely random (meaning for the average citizen, more of a threat - being in the wrong place at teh wrong time, even going out to dinner on a Saturday night), and one is more afraid of getting shot "by accident" than one is on the streets of Guadalajara, D.F. and certainly in the nice safe resort community of Lakeside.

So, where is the fear worse? Good question, but my answer is still my home country...and that is a shame.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Mother Jones Magazine did a study on mass killings in the United States (defined as the murder of four or more people in a public place). Its policy certainly is not to minimize the problem. They reported that so far in 2013 there have been 23 fatalities from this cause and that in 2012 there were 72, and 19 in 2011. (They counted the killer when he also died). Their data at the link below goes back to 1982. Murders from such cases in any single year would not rise above 0.0 per 100,000 in the United States.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2012/12/mass-shootings-mother-jones-full-data

How much more "random" can something be than to be snatched off the street and murdered so that a cartel can match the atrocity of its rival in another state, as happened with the eighteen victims found in the van in Ixtlahuacán?

Link to post
Share on other sites

IMHO it's a silly article that sidesteps all of the real issues:

1. 90%+ of crime goes unreported in Mexico so what do the "statistics" mean?

2. Your chances of being murdered, raped, etc. in Mexico are doubtless much lower than in many U.S. cities, but anyone who lives here even part-time knows that break-ins, robberies, petty theft and property crime generally are at levels (here at Lakeside) that rival the seediest parts of U.S. big cities and far surpass major cities in Canada.

3. Last and not least, there is essentially no rule of law in Mexico, meaning that if you are a crime victim there's no point in even reporting it to the police, let alone hoping for redress. The government both locally and nationally is essentially in the hands of the cartels, corruption is some of the worst in the world, etc. That things still function so well on a day-to-day basis is a tribute to the kindness and sanity of the Mexican people, which is boundless, but offering "lies, damn lies and statistics" to visitors in lieu of the obvious and unvarnished truth isn't doing anyone any favors.

Link to post
Share on other sites

KevinK is spot on.

It's the ever-present breaking/entering at Lakeside that has diminished the quality of life here. Few people get over the violation one feels after their home has been broken into. In the past 2 years I know of 3 couples and 1 single who were burglarized and then left Mexico, two of them selling their homes for about 60% of what they paid for them.

Yes, yes, we all know the security steps we can take. But the barbed wire, electrified fencing makes Ajijic look more like a fortification than the sleepy Mexican village we first visited 12 years ago.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Kevin ... articulate and wise words. Bwhite... geesh agreeing with you.

Yet when i go to places like Bara de Navidad, Colima, Queretaro (best not promote SMA jeje) I do not see all the same safety / security precautions and in especially Barra amazingly open properties.No where is perfect and lakseside has positives too but warts are greater than some places. Meanwhile, Chapala INM does not help make one feel wanted. Nor do the police by not publishing stats and working harder to gain the confidence of the community.

But Mexico gets in your blood as they say. It is somewhat of a love / hate relationship. Most aspects when it comes to government, utilities like CFE and TelMex, judicial system, law enforcement, infrastructure are broken in one way or another but this will also be the last country in which we live. Being blessed by an awesome Mexican wife and daughter definitely helps but even without those huge pluses this is home, warts and all.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see where the article even mentions Canada, so not sure why margojean is mentioning it. It's a moronic comparison but if it makes you feel better for being in bed with the devil, then go for it.

As to breaking and entering, let's remember also that some of those poor people were also assaulted and terrorized.

I've also been blessed with an awesome Mexican spouse - he sees the seriousness of the warts better than many expats and never hides behind nonsense to defend the indefensible. I can't think of any Mexicans who do that. Kevin is absolutely right - the attitude here is why report it, not only because people think the police are do-nothings but because they are as likely to incriminate the victim as not. For that reason a family member refused recently to report that he was robbed on the job and decided to give up the job instead.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't see where the article even mentions Canada, so not sure why margojean is mentioning it. It's a moronic comparison but if it makes you feel better for being in bed with the devil, then go for it.

As to breaking and entering, let's remember also that some of those poor people were also assaulted and terrorized.

I've also been blessed with an awesome Mexican spouse - he sees the seriousness of the warts better than many expats and never hides behind nonsense to defend the indefensible. I can't think of any Mexicans who do that. Kevin is absolutely right - the attitude here is why report it, not only because people think the police are do-nothings but because they are as likely to incriminate the victim as not. For that reason a family member refused recently to report that he was robbed on the job and decided to give up the job instead.

http://howsafeismexico.com/global_crime_rates.html

There are 2 links they base some of their conclusion's on and the one above that does mention Canada and if you did check out the 2 links you would have a better idea what they are using as statistics.

I also have had 2 Mexican National spouses, one is my current wife, and I would disagree Mexican´s think like your husband does, actually most, if not all, I have contact with think the opposite.

Maybe it is because someone they know or themselves have experienced what some here have and have the common sense idea, easy pickings is foolish and irresponsible ... take care of yourself and your stuff, no one else is going to.

Link to post
Share on other sites

The place to report crime is the Ministerio Publico, not the Police. Besides, the Police can do nothing.

This is very insightful. I have been robbed 3Xs and had a central alarm system and when they finished cleaning out the stuff in my yard broke into my house and the alarm had them running.

There was an article in the Mexicali newspaper the state justice system was considering disallowing surveillance videos in court, but it didn´t pass, as far as I know.

The police basically have to catch the criminals in the act or catch them with the stolen goods in their possession to make an arrest if the criminal doesn´t confess. Getting confessions "used" to be the way but is slowly changing as human rights are advancing.

Also someone posted 90%+ of crime goes unreported in Mexico. This is an oxymoron as there is no way in the world to prove this. It is more like a Fox News Channel "statistic".

Link to post
Share on other sites

Also someone posted 90%+ of crime goes unreported in Mexico. This is an oxymoron as there is no way in the world to prove this. It is more like a Fox News Channel "statistic".

Actually Alan it looks like it's 92%: http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/crimes-mexico-unreported-inegi

Obviously we'll never know the exact numbers....asking people who don't report crimes how often they don't report them leads to a rather surreal comedy routine pretty quickly, but unlike Fox News that just makes stuff up as they go along we have every reason to believe that most crimes in México go unreported, and thus to doubt any sort of statistical comparisons of crime here with crime in the U.S. or Canada.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually Alan it looks like it's 92%: http://www.insightcrime.org/news-briefs/crimes-mexico-unreported-inegi

Obviously we'll never know the exact numbers....asking people who don't report crimes how often they don't report them leads to a rather surreal comedy routine pretty quickly, but unlike Fox News that just makes stuff up as they go along we have every reason to believe that most crimes in México go unreported, and thus to doubt any sort of statistical comparisons of crime here with crime in the U.S. or Canada.

http://www.inegi.org.mx/est/contenidos/Proyectos/Encuestas/Hogares/regulares/envipe/envipe2012/default.aspx

This is an actual link to the poll.

It appears their methodology is what pollers use by sampling a portion of the population and divided it into 18 year olds and older polling many cities and the results varied greatly in local attitudes but the basic confidence in federal institutes and agencies was very similar with the military and federal police coming out on top and local police and especially transitos coming out on the bottom in all states, interesting.

"The ENVIPE 2012, points out that the reasons leading to the victims of a crime not to

report the crime to authorities, such as loss of time and distrust thereof, is 63.2 percent.

Moreover, the survey reveals that the population 18 years and over and nationally, says

as their primary concerns are the issue of insecurity (57.5%), followed by unemployment (49.3%)

and poverty (34.0 percent).

However, statistical polls have revealed that in the estimates of the

perception of the same population over insecurity, yes there is significant difference in passing

69.5% of perceived level of insecurity in the state"

The actual statistics of reported crime was high in most cities and some very high and theft topped the list in all cities by far. Also interesting theft on public transportation or in the street was very high followed by extortion and break ins were low {4.4% in 2012}.,,, muggings were 7 to 1 in 2012. Maybe we should be more aware of muggings and how common they are in some cites when using public transportation and walking around.

The comparison to 2011 and the 2012 statistics showed little reported crime changes, to be expected.

Overall interesting is 69.5% polled have little confidence in the security and judicial system of justice in Mexico in 2011 and it went down to 66.6% in 2012.

They use a formula to draw conclusions and if in most cities muggings and extortion are almost 60% of the reported crimes then the other crimes are 40% and the 63.2 % baseline that polled people stated they would not report any crimes done to them. So the 60% of the 92% topped with 63.2% not reporting any crimes is very understandable to arrive at the 92% unreported crime rate.

I would say the formula they use to arrive at 92% has 60% of crimes as muggings and extortion and understand completely why people would not report extortion here, dangerous. and also not report a mugging, a waste of time.

My conclusion is this is a more common occurrence in many countries and not only Mexico.

Link to post
Share on other sites

One poster commented on how people can become victimized by the police when reporting a crime on another thread recently. Many seem to be following what I consider a lower class way of thinking and many have no confidence in any authorities in Mexico though ignorance and past bad experiences, possibly as long as 30 years ago, or have heard of these things happening to others.

These few seem to have no understanding of modern Mexico IMO, or maybe they themselves have a good reason.

When a citizen is assaulted or robbed they need to report it police and others for insurance or medical insurance reporting and claims that need it in writing. So most people report crime as they have insurance and have absolutely no fear of the authorities and know people in authority or work for the authorities.

Some people of the lower classes have a disdain for Mexican authorities and fear them. Most do not. Old school thinking and best to be avoided.

Also some that spread disdain for all authority are sometimes the ones living under the radar, pay no taxes, do not have IMSS pensions and medical coverage etc. nothing to lose. Possibly even involved in illegal activities and have a good reason for the fear they have of coming into contact with any authorities.

Most people don´t buy into what others say without a good reason or two. IMO

Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people of the lower classes have a disdain for Mexican authorities and fear them. Most do not. Old school thinking and best to be avoided.

Most Mexicans of all classes are disdainful of Mexican police and for very good reasons.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Most Mexicans of all classes are disdainful of Mexican police and for very good reasons.

Authorities as in: police [federal, state and municipal] , military, INM, Customs, IMSS, Seguro Popular, PGR, DEF,and other gov´t. authorities. Maybe most do not trust transitos and in some areas the municipal or state police but in general the overall distrust for authority in Mexico is still old school thinking that some seem to regurgitate at times. Maybe listening to others is good sometimes and bad other times and might depend on where you live and with whom you are chatting with.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Authorities as in: police, federal, state and municipal, military, INM, Customs, IMSS, Seguro Popular, PGR, DEF,and other gov´t. authorities. Maybe most do not trust transitos and in some areas the municipal or state police but in general the overall distrust for authority in Mexico is still old school thinking that some seem to regurgitate at times. Maybe listening to others is good sometimes and bad other times and might depend on where you live and who you are chatting with.

In the twenty odd years I have lived in Mexico I have found it to be a universal fact...the majority of Mexicans , i know , rich or poor, educated or not..distrust the authorities list above, as has been the case for a hundred years at least..

Link to post
Share on other sites

Authorities as in: police [federal, state and municipal] , military, INM, Customs, IMSS, Seguro Popular, PGR, DEF,and other gov´t. authorities. Maybe most do not trust transitos and in some areas the municipal or state police but in general the overall distrust for authority in Mexico is still old school thinking that some seem to regurgitate at times. Maybe listening to others is good sometimes and bad other times and might depend on where you live and with whom you are chatting with.

I live in an upper middle class neighborhood in Guadalajara,speak fluent Spanish and chat mainly with Mexicans,I could not disagree more with your observations and I'm a hundred percent sure that the vast majority of Mexicans would disagree with them as well,they're just not accurate.
Link to post
Share on other sites

This statement makes me feel SO MUCH Safer in Mexico. Thanks.

It was my conclusion in many countries people do NOT report crimes against themselves to police. What you think I said is something else, it appears.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...