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Justice in Mexico - Getting Revenge

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It is the responsibility of Mexico to determine if offering health care to retirees, foreign workers is in the long term profitable or not. It is not the responsibility of a retiree to turn down a senior entitlement because some foreign fools try and shame them into believing they are robbing the poor, when actually they do not have any statistical imformation to support that premise.

Is it not obvious that if you participate in a state sponsored health care system that neither you nor your employer have paid into that you are diluting the funds available to those dependent on this system? Yes it is legal but is it morally justified if you can afford to provide your own coverage or pay your medical costs? Also please consider that foreign workers and their employers contribute to Mexico in many ways that retirees do not.

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Is it not obvious that if you participate in a state sponsored health care system that neither you nor your employer have paid into that you are diluting the funds available to those dependent on this system? Yes it is legal but is it morally justified if you can afford to provide your own coverage or pay your medical costs? Also please consider that foreign workers and their employers contribute in many ways that retirees do not.

We recently had some work done on our property, and the IMSS made sure that we paid the fees.

What do the foreigners contribute to the health entitlement funds? Nada, unless you are employing Mexicans.

I also agree about "moral justification", but then, I'm one of the "foreign fools", I suppose. This takes me back, waaay back, to the days of "got any freebies?".

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We recently had some work done on our property, and the IMSS made sure that we paid the fees.

What do the foreigners contribute to the health entitlement funds? Nada, unless you are employing Mexicans.

I also agree about "moral justification", but then, I'm one of the "foreign fools", I suppose. This takes me back, waaay back, to the days of "got any freebies?".

Actually I bet we contribute more toward the expenses of SP than do the majority of Mexicans. I'm not rich but I easily spend more than $1000 pesos a week at Wal-Mart and other stores for one person That is a lot of sales tax into the coffers and more than the average Mexican pays. Mexico pays for SP through its sales taxes as far as I know. Even it property taxes pay for it, renters pay property taxes through their rent and property owners pay taxes.

It is in the Mexican Constitution, the Mexican Migration Act and in the Seguro Popular Rules that any resident of Mexico can join Seguro Popular. I guess I don't think Mexicans are stupid and I think that if they did not want foreigners joining their healthcare systems they would have written that into the law but then I don't think all foreigners are stupid for not predicting the future either like some here think we are.

We pay for Seguro Popular and the gossip is that IMSS will be folded into SP in the future. If Mexicans don't want foreigners using either they know how to change their laws.

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This country derives most of its tax revenues from the VAT and from Pemex. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that the expats here would rank in the top few percentage of the population of Mexico when it comes to disposable income and spending in stores where VAT is collected. Virtually all of us have cars, way beyond the average for this company and we all fuel those cars at Pemex, 40 percent of whose revenues go to the government in a form of tax.

Our homes, whether rented or owned, are well above average for Mexico and hence pay property tax that is well above average.

I'll wager that very few of us, percentage wise, use either SP or IMSS because, frankly, we can afford a better level of health care. That also supports Mexico and Mexican taxes.

We don't have to apologize to anyone for the amount of support we give to the local economy and to the government here.

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This country derives most of its tax revenues from the VAT and from Pemex. That is a fact. And it is also a fact that the expats here would rank in the top few percentage of the population of Mexico when it comes to disposable income and spending in stores where VAT is collected. Virtually all of us have cars, way beyond the average for this company and we all fuel those cars at Pemex, 40 percent of whose revenues go to the government in a form of tax.

Our homes, whether rented or owned, are well above average for Mexico and hence pay property tax that is well above average.

I'll wager that very few of us, percentage wise, use either SP or IMSS because, frankly, we can afford a better level of health care. That also supports Mexico and Mexican taxes.

We don't have to apologize to anyone for the amount of support we give to the local economy and to the government here.

Consider this. As a retiree you will in all likelihood pay gasoline taxes and VAT for a relatively short time compared to Mexican nationals who have lived in this country their whole lives. Also, we are as a group generally older and statistically more likely to have serious and continuing expensive health care issues. If we use these programs we are not paying our own way and we are taking not giving.

Also let's be real - these are nationwide programs and the ex pat community here has little positive impact on the national economy or for that matter the Jalisco economy.

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I've read that IMSS is just about broke, due in part to the pensions system. If they are folded into SP, it would not be surprising.

Not too long ago, one of the people at IMSS in Chapala was deleting foreigners who had been paying into the system and was refusing to accept others. What a mess. I heard that person was defanged and transferred.

Having heard about the Seguro Popular medical facilities on this forum and from others, that would be the last place I'd want to go to the hospital. Scares hell out of me, to be honest. I've also heard from people who used it and were satisfied, so ??? Probably depends on the hospital.

I signed up years ago for IMSS; have never used it but paid in every year. It's the "emergency backup plan". Otherwise, I plan to pay for private care until the money runs out or I run out of earthly pavement.

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The Chapala IMSS director was enforcing IMSS rules, another agency that has agency rules like INM has agency rules. Voluntary members, retired foreigners who join IMSS on their own instead of it being employer paid, are given fewer benefits than employer paid members. The IMSS rules were not enforced before and she started enforcing the rules to get local IMSS expenses in line.

Foreigners who join SP usually do so because they don't qualify for IMSS. SP takes people with preexisting conditions.

None of us wants to use an SP hospital where we need to have someone with us 24 hours a day, no English is spoken, no towels, no soap, and we can be in a large ward with possibly a dozen people.

If the person can afford to pay some money he can go to one of the hospitals or clinics that SP has agreements with such as San Javier. SP in every state is under the states direction and the states make their own decisions about joining with private providers.

If Mexico thinks it is unfair that we use its healthcare systems, Mexico can change its laws. Frankly I think Mexicans should be insulted that we think we have to protect them from us because they are not smart enough to look out for themselves.

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Consider this. As a retiree you will in all likelihood pay gasoline taxes and VAT for a relatively short time compared to Mexican nationals who have lived in this country their whole lives. Also, we are as a group generally older and statistically more likely to have serious and continuing expensive health care issues. If we use these programs we are not paying our own way and we are taking not giving.

Also let's be real - these are nationwide programs and the ex pat community here has little positive impact on the national economy or for that matter the Jalisco economy.

How many do you know who have paid for IMSS as a backup system however pay for normal medical care and prescriptions out of pocket? Let's be real. Surely you are aware that one of the primary reasons people return NOB is medical. I know four at present in the US for medical treatment and plan to return to Mexico. Do you have the numbers on what group has cost the system the most? Mexicans, Canadians, Americans, Central or South Americans, other?

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Consider this. As a retiree you will in all likelihood pay gasoline taxes and VAT for a relatively short time compared to Mexican nationals who have lived in this country their whole lives. Also, we are as a group generally older and statistically more likely to have serious and continuing expensive health care issues. If we use these programs we are not paying our own way and we are taking not giving.

Also let's be real - these are nationwide programs and the ex pat community here has little positive impact on the national economy or for that matter the Jalisco economy.

We might not pay into it for 40 years but most of us will pay taxes in Mexico for 20 years and in those 20 years we will pay more than the average Mexican. I bet each one of us pays more than 10 average Mexicans do every year.

We are not a huge impact on the Mexican economy, a low estimate for 200,000 of us is $300,000,000 USD a month or a little over $3 billion dollars a year but considering we cost Mexico very little we give back much more than we take out.

Most of us use IMSS or SP as an emergency backup. We pay medical care out of pocket because first of all using those clinics is a real pain and not worth saving a few pesos.

How many do you know who have paid for IMSS as a backup system however pay for normal medical care and prescriptions out of pocket? Let's be real. Surely you are aware that one of the primary reasons people return NOB is medical. I know four at present in the US for medical treatment and plan to return to Mexico. Do you have the numbers on what group has cost the system the most? Mexicans, Canadians, Americans, Central or South Americans, other?

Everybody I know who has serious health problems has returned to the U.S. for care. Some are getting ready to return instead of paying out of pocket here or using SP.

We have other options for healthcare. Mexicans do not and they are the people who use SP and IMSS.

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Consider this. As a retiree you will in all likelihood pay gasoline taxes and VAT for a relatively short time compared to Mexican nationals who have lived in this country their whole lives. Also, we are as a group generally older and statistically more likely to have serious and continuing expensive health care issues. If we use these programs we are not paying our own way and we are taking not giving.

Also let's be real - these are nationwide programs and the ex pat community here has little positive impact on the national economy or for that matter the Jalisco economy.

Consider this: The fact remains that compared to the average Mexican we pay more into the economy than almost all of them. Our rate of support--taxes paid for time here is quite high. The Mexicans have been here their entire lives, using services their entire lives, like, for example, schools, which we won't use at all.

Again, you are assuming the majority of expats use these health programs. At least in our circle of expats, I know of one out of the entire group that does. The rest pay out of pocket and go north when they need the big stuff.

Unless you can prove that a significant percentage of expats actually use these programs, your argument simply doesn't hold water.

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Consider this. As a retiree you will in all likelihood pay gasoline taxes and VAT for a relatively short time compared to Mexican nationals who have lived in this country their whole lives. Also, we are as a group generally older and statistically more likely to have serious and continuing expensive health care issues. If we use these programs we are not paying our own way and we are taking not giving.

Also let's be real - these are nationwide programs and the ex pat community here has little positive impact on the national economy or for that matter the Jalisco economy.

Exactly, When the new INM rules were implemented ( whether you call them laws or rules) It was for the entire country of Mexico . Not just expats living on Social Security in Chapala- Mexico's Tourist Economy next to Pemex is Mexico's largest income producer to businesses and taxes -

You are comparing your contributions to the local economy to those lower class Mexicans who live around you in small pueblos-- not the entire country- It is well documented that Mexico now has a 50% Middle Class population ( Yesterday on PBS Newshour - they were talking about this subject) Middle and upper middle class people living in Metro areas have been paying taxes etc all their lives- current payroll taxes are 30%, those of you who occasionally drive to GDL see the amount of vehicles in this city- think about DF--These are the citizens paying the VAT and Gas taxes in this country-No comparison to those of you who may drive 20 miles a week or not even own a car ----as many often claim- Living Cheaply -is their motivation for coming to Mexico.

As for IMSS or SP - if you have been living on a FM3 or other Temporary Resident Visa-(Do you really believe, when the Mexican Gov. wrote the law to include All Residents of the Country of Mexico are eligible for medical care---- that they were thinking of covering expats who are only Temporary.?? We were neighther Excluded nor were we INCLUDED by the law----

It's the same conversation that has been happening in the USA for 15 years- and is going on now in Congress- Americans don't want Legal immigrants or Illegal residents using Medicare or Medicaid because they did not pay into the system for years--Yet all those millions have been paying gas taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes and in cases of the employed, also Social Security Taxes and Income Taxes -unbeknownst to most Americans..... Don't get why so many expats have a sense of entitlement in a country where Social Services are almost non existent for the really needy...

As for the Gov. Changing the laws without your knowledge or opinion- Get real- Several years ago when Canada suddenly changed its Visa policies overnight- Mexicans and Mexican Businesses all over the country were outraged and angry because they lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in airplane tickets, hotels, cruise packages etc that had been booked and paid for in advance, and Mexcians could not longer enter Canada without a new visa..... Canada didn't seem concerned about it at all

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This is drifting into "topic wander", but I wonder how many expats who expect to go NOB for the "big stuff" under Medicare realize that the plans they continue to pay for over the years in order to be eligible to do this really add up. Figure a little over 100 US for Part B alone for two people over a period of ten years (in our case) equals over $24,000 U.S. dollars. That pays for a stay in a nicer Mexican hospital near home.

Also consider the nature of simply arranging for the "big stuff" trip NOB, hassle wise: First, you must find a place to stay for the duration of the pre surgery or whatever other treatment you're getting. If you have relatives ready and willing to put you up, fine. Some of us don't, some do. Then, you must arrange for a physician who will accept a new Medicare patient. This is not easy at all. I'll leave the rest of this potential horror story to your imagination.

My imagination directed me to find a general practitioner who will refer me or my spouse to a reputable specialist and hospital where we can avoid the above scenario. And, just to consider the darkest side of the dark side..........if you're "big stuff" is big enough, you probably won't have much time to live no matter which route you take. Might as well stay right here. You can afford a caretaker at a reasonable price while you wait for the end of the game.

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Exactly, When the new INM rules were implemented ( whether you call them laws or rules) It was for the entire country of Mexico . Not just expats living on Social Security in Chapala- Mexico's Tourist Economy next to Pemex is Mexico's largest income producer to businesses and taxes -

You are comparing your contributions to the local economy to those lower class Mexicans who live around you in small pueblos-- not the entire country- It is well documented that Mexico now has a 50% Middle Class population ( Yesterday on PBS Newshour - they were talking about this subject) Middle and upper middle class people living in Metro areas have been paying taxes etc all their lives- current payroll taxes are 30%, those of you who occasionally drive to GDL see the amount of vehicles in this city- think about DF--These are the citizens paying the VAT and Gas taxes in this country-No comparison to those of you who may drive 20 miles a week or not even own a car ----as many often claim- Living Cheaply -is their motivation for coming to Mexico.

As for IMSS or SP - if you have been living on a FM3 or other Temporary Resident Visa-(Do you really believe, when the Mexican Gov. wrote the law to include All Residents of the Country of Mexico are eligible for medical care---- that they were thinking of covering expats who are only Temporary.?? We were neighther Excluded nor were we INCLUDED by the law----

It's the same conversation that has been happening in the USA for 15 years- and is going on now in Congress- Americans don't want Legal immigrants or Illegal residents using Medicare or Medicaid because they did not pay into the system for years--Yet all those millions have been paying gas taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes and in cases of the employed, also Social Security Taxes and Income Taxes -unbeknownst to most Americans..... Don't get why so many expats have a sense of entitlement in a country where Social Services are almost non existent for the really needy...

As for the Gov. Changing the laws without your knowledge or opinion- Get real- Several years ago when Canada suddenly changed its Visa policies overnight- Mexicans and Mexican Businesses all over the country were outraged and angry because they lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in airplane tickets, hotels, cruise packages etc that had been booked and paid for in advance, and Mexcians could not longer enter Canada without a new visa..... Canada didn't seem concerned about it at all

You might not understand why agency rules are different than laws but there is a huge difference. Rules can be changed quickly and laws can't. Of course a federal agency's rules affect the whole country but that still doesn't make them laws. There is a huge difference in how rules are contested such as rules are challenged in an administrative court and not state or federal court.

As retired expats we are concerned about the INM rules that affect us. The rules that affect people entering illegally over the Southern Border don't interest us that much.

As for IMSS or SP - if you have been living on a FM3 or other Temporary Resident Visa-(Do you really believe, when the Mexican Gov. wrote the law to include All Residents of the Country of Mexico are eligible for medical care---- that they were thinking of covering expats who are only Temporary.?? We were neighther Excluded nor were we INCLUDED by the law----

I don't know what the above means.

It's the same conversation that has been happening in the USA for 15 years- and is going on now in Congress- Americans don't want Legal immigrants or Illegal residents using Medicare or Medicaid because they did not pay into the system for years--Yet all those millions have been paying gas taxes, real estate taxes, sales taxes and in cases of the employed, also Social Security Taxes and Income Taxes -unbeknownst to most Americans..... Don't get why so many expats have a sense of entitlement in a country where Social Services are almost non existent for the really needy.

Illegals pay an estimated 3 billion a year into Social Security and Medicare and cannot benefit from either. They also pay billions every year in sales taxes, property taxes, fuel taxes, etc., all of which they benefit very little.

People who become citizens in the U.S., when they are eligible can file for SS or Medicare. They cannot collect SS or Medicare if they have not paid into SS a minimum amount for 40 quarters but they can collect SS Supplemental Benefits which is close to $800 a month and Medicaid.

There is no conversation about this in Congress because the law is already clear about how long one must contribute to SS to receive the benefits.

As for the Gov. Changing the laws without your knowledge or opinion- Get real- Several years ago when Canada suddenly changed its Visa policies overnight- Mexicans and Mexican Businesses all over the country were outraged and angry because they lost hundreds of thousands of dollars in airplane tickets, hotels, cruise packages etc that had been booked and paid for in advance, and Mexcians could not longer enter Canada without a new visa..... Canada didn't seem concerned about it at all

None of us expected to give our approval for the new rules. We do and I think the government does also, expect the rules to follow the law and not rewrite the law.

If Canada ripped Mexicans off, selected one group to do that to which smacks of being illegal, I think the Mexicans could file suit to fight back. The court systems in the U.S. and Canada are easier to navigate than for us in Mexico.

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