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Justice in Mexico - Getting Revenge

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http://www.borderlandbeat.com/2013/07/video-presumed-guilty-justice-in-mexico.html

"There are few presentations that better illustrate the corrupt and failed Mexican judicial system than "Presumed Guilty", the 2010 Mexican documentary( a MUST SEE, if you haven't). "But, that same judicial system that was completely exposed in the film, now is seen as being after revenge against those who exposed them. But, as happened in 2011, hopefully this will escalate internationally where soon, again, the government of Mexico President Enrique Pena Nieto will be displayed as a country without law, without respect for human rights, where the weak are abused , bonded tranzas officials and corruption is rewarded. In short: a country without freedom or justice."

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What a "fun" country we have selected to live in. :) And, we thought it was worse where we came from. :( But, it's cheaper here, right. That is important. :)

That's the only reason most of us are here because it is cheaper and then Mexico shot itself in the foot thinking we moved here because it is Paradise and Mexico only wants those with money. It wants the people who can live in Hawaii or countries with a better infrastructure, less corruption, more safety, etc. It wants the people who do not want to live in Mexico. Why would anyone want to live where he has to worry about cops taking bribes or stealing from him or if a crime is committed you don't bother filing a complaint because nothing will be done about it. Who wants to set down roots where a government agency decides to change the rules without explanation. without reason and disrupt our lives? What rules are next that will force us to give up and move?

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That's the only reason most of us are here because it is cheaper and then Mexico shot itself in the foot thinking we moved here because it is Paradise and Mexico only wants those with money. Why would anyone want to live where he has to worry about cops taking bribes or stealing from him or if a crime is committed you don't bother filing a complaint because nothing will be done about it.

(1) Where it appears it is a lot cheaper to live, and (2) where, with a little money, you can live the life of "royalty".

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If you didn't do your research before deciding to live in a country which operates under Napoleonic "Guilty until proven innocent" Code of law, then you probably deserve feelings of disillusionment and disappointment after living here. The best option is to return to a place where you feel better about the government and its form of justice.

Personally, I don't see much "justice" meted out anywhere in the world if you are without adequate means to mount a successful defense. I see corruption all over the planet. Some of it is better reported than others. Sometimes the public is treated like mushrooms. Some governments even spy on their own citizens (lol).

There are tradeoffs. Most of us can live better here on our means than we could NOB. The climate is superb.

I don't expect anything more and I deal with the topes in the road as they occur. After ten years, I've experienced my share.

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I gather that those newbies and newer member are all packing up and about to leave. :rolleyes:

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If you didn't do your research before deciding to live in a country which operates under Napoleonic "Guilty until proven innocent" Code of law, then you probably deserve feelings of disillusionment and disappointment after living here. The best option is to return to a place where you feel better about the government and its form of justice.

Personally, I don't see much "justice" meted out anywhere in the world if you are without adequate means to mount a successful defense. I see corruption all over the planet. Some of it is better reported than others. Sometimes the public is treated like mushrooms. Some governments even spy on their own citizens (lol).

There are tradeoffs. Most of us can live better here on our means than we could NOB. The climate is superb.

I don't expect anything more and I deal with the topes in the road as they occur. After ten years, I've experienced my share.

Funny how some responses are always to blame us. Most foreigners do not concern themselves with the legal system in a country because they don't have any plans to be involved it in.

Most foreigners are not prepared for all the bribes and outright theft by law enforcement and they shouldn't be. Bribes and theft don't have anything to do with the Napoleonic Code. The Napoleonic Code means a court makes a decision based upon the written law and not previous decisions made by a higher court court like a Common Law country does.

I've been here 8 years and I am almost certain the new INM rules this time are a huge change from previous rules. There is no reason for the rules to change like they did except for an agency abusing its power. It doesn't hurt me because I rent but people who own property in the price range that was affordable for newcomers under the old rules, those people will probably not be approved, will not move here, and will not be buying property in the $150,000 USD range.

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That's the only reason most of us are here because it is cheaper and then Mexico shot itself in the foot thinking we moved here because it is Paradise and Mexico only wants those with money. It wants the people who can live in Hawaii or countries with a better infrastructure, less corruption, more safety, etc. It wants the people who do not want to live in Mexico. Why would anyone want to live where he has to worry about cops taking bribes or stealing from him or if a crime is committed you don't bother filing a complaint because nothing will be done about it. Who wants to set down roots where a government agency decides to change the rules without explanation. without reason and disrupt our lives? What rules are next that will force us to give up and move?

Most of the countries in the world are just like this one or worse. The exceptions can be counted on two hands and even then those countries have their 'money fix' issues.

As for why Mexico, for us it is and always has been simply the weather and the congregation of similarly aged people with discretionary income and time as retired people to make friends and do activities. We've been in Ohio now for almost 10 days. Its been clear & sunny for 1 day, overcast and heavy water air for 8 days (we don't call it humidity here) it has no heat connected to it but is cool sweater weather. It lingers so that everything feels covered with a sheen of water or is just plain damp. The money is the same here or there with prices here for food being just a bit better in stores and restaurants so the financial aspect means little to those of us from the flyover country. However between work and kids social obligations our friends and family are busy busy busy busy bees.

So we talked about getting a small house or apt here this past week. Easily affordable, nothing fancy, but its charming and easily furnished includes heat and elec is metered at $30 a month. Nice 2bed 1 ba with wood floor and small kitchen 1930s building in old tree-lined gentrified neighborhood near parks and lots of cafes etc... http://cleveland.craigslist.org/apa/3906181929.html could be had for $600 a month but would we come here in the winter, NO, the wet soggy spring, NO, this yech of summer, NOOO....so that is on hold until grandkids here come along.

The world is mobile now, people moving all over the place. The Mexican government did not have a bunch of policy wonks sitting in a windowless room in the DF thinking up ways to cause a few US retirees immigration problems. They were there looking to the future and making sure that as the world flows to their door they have the right people with the right stuff heading their way.

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Most of the countries in the world are just like this one or worse. The exceptions can be counted on two hands. The Mexican government did not have a bunch of policy wonks sitting in a windowless room in the DF thinking up ways to cause a few US retirees immigration problems. They were there looking to the future and making sure that as the world flows to their door they have the right people with the right stuff heading their way.

Agreed. Other countries NOB would do well by looking at what Mexico has done with their immigration policy.

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I agree with Solajic's assessment. Our solution to the family problem has been bribery. They like to come here and enjoy the recreation, the sights, the weather...and of course good old us, within limits.

The accusation of "blaming us" is inappropriate on its face. Whose fault is it when people are not prepared for what they will encounter after making a major life change? I hear so many who expect Mexico to be all that they left behind, and more.

It's a different country, a different culture, and a different attitude. The government, even with all the new immigration rules, is not nearly as restrictive as, for instance........the U.S., Canada and many many more countries with a desirable environment.

Check out the web for what you have to possess to immigrate to Canada. It's surprising.

And, as a wise person once told me as a child complaining about the way things were: "Who ever said it was going to be fair?" :o

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The Mexican government did not have a bunch of policy wonks sitting in a windowless room in the DF thinking up ways to cause a few US retirees immigration problems. They were there looking to the future and making sure that as the world flows to their door they have the right people with the right stuff heading their way.

The Mexican legislators did not think up the rule changes and INM does not have the authority to rewrite the laws and make decisions about who can or cannot live in Mexico based upon financial resources.

The Migration Act that was written by legislators and signed into law by President Calderon is very fair. There is not ax to grind with it. The rules surprised everyone because the rules do not reflect the intent of the law. The law states a foreigner needs to prove that he has enough resources to support himself for a year. Making foreigners return to their home country for documents to live in Mexico shows an ignorance about foreigners who live in Mexico. Europeans cannot drive home.

The income under the INM rules is a pension so that eliminates younger people and they are not combining income and property like the old rules.

The rules were written by employees in an agency who did not understand that INM rules impact other rules.

President Pena signed into law that from now on agency rules must be written and published within 90 days of a new law. The new INM rules were not published for over a year after the Migration Act and published right when the legislators were leaving. INM knew the rules would cause problems so their actions were not looking forward to improving migration into Mexico but some odd agenda that someone in INM has with foreigners. The rules are punitive, not like the old rules that followed the law and the new ones are certainly not like what the Migration Act intended.

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So.......it's not fair, or not the intent of the law or not according to Hoyle. All of that.

The question remaining is: What do you think can be done to change it, if anything? If no changes are made, what are the various posters planning to do?

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We are very spoiled, those of us who have lived in the wealthier, less politically volatile Countries. Imagine being a senior in Egypt or Syria, trying to enjoy your retirement. You could go mad trying to figure out how to solve the problems in Mexico and elsewhere in the world. All you can do it try and live each day the best you can, be supportive to your friends and neighbors and hope (pray if it suits you) that the average Mexican citizen will push for change and an end to corruption. That could mean more instability, and you need to prepare for that if you plan to stay here. So far, its pretty easy to stay out of harms way and there are plenty of ways to help the people in your community with some of the problems that are solvable. Everyone should have a support network, some emergency cash and the name of a Lawyer and Doctor who will be around if you need them. ...

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So.......it's not fair, or not the intent of the law or not according to Hoyle. All of that.

The question remaining is: What do you think can be done to change it, if anything? If no changes are made, what are the various posters planning to do?

Who is claiming "fairness?" The new rules are destructive and local businesses owned by Mexicans agree. If we all accepted that unfairness is OK then we would never have any progress or change, would we? When we think something isn't fair we try to change it.

According to facilitators I have spoken to, they all think the rules will be changed this year. The rules do not reflect the law as they are required to do and were published at the end of the legislative terms to avoid oversight. Changing the rules is not difficult. Rules are proposed and published for comment. A committee accepts the new rules and the rule is finalized. It is nothing like passing a law.

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That's the only reason most of us are here because it is cheaper and then Mexico shot itself in the foot thinking we moved here because it is Paradise and Mexico only wants those with money. It wants the people who can live in Hawaii or countries with a better infrastructure, less corruption, more safety, etc. It wants the people who do not want to live in Mexico. Why would anyone want to live where he has to worry about cops taking bribes or stealing from him or if a crime is committed you don't bother filing a complaint because nothing will be done about it. Who wants to set down roots where a government agency decides to change the rules without explanation. without reason and disrupt our lives? What rules are next that will force us to give up and move?

Joco, many of us are here because we do not want to live in our home country. For me, I lived and worked outside the US for many years and I do not feel at home in the US. I find Mexico to be familiar and rewarding. I am here because I chose Mexico, not its cost of living. Most of my friends have similar backgrounds.

Look at all the postings from people who want to use IMSS, Seguro Popular, and DIF. No country wants to attract foreigners who will be a drain on its systems.

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No one has claimed the new procedures are "fair". The question remains: what, exactly, can foreigners legally do about it?

I haven't heard any answers yet.

Another matter Luisa mentioned: How about all those people who rush to sign up for Seguro Popular and IMSS to avoid buying private health insurance and/or just paying out of pocket? Mexico is being generous, and foreigners are taking advantage of it.

Worse yet are those who don't even bother to sign up with IMSS or S.P. and just expect their friends and neighbors to pony up the money for their medical bills out of the goodness of their hearts. And, they often do so, bless 'em. But, again, those who are unprepared to pay their own expenses: What were they thinking when they moved here?

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I don't think it is the right of anyone who is not a citizen of a country to judge the fairness of it's immigration policies.

I agree with gringal, solajijic, and luisa because I believe that a government would be failing in it's duty to it citizens to support an immigration policy that encouraged immigration by people not able to pay their own way. Also, it should be understood that there is no change in income requirements for those currently here and wanting to become permanent residents once they have fulfilled the term of their temporary visa.

It seems to me that no matter where one lives in this would that many (not all) of those who are struggling economically think that life is unfair and that it is someone else job to fix things for them.

Sorry for helping to continue to take this thread of topic.

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No one has claimed the new procedures are "fair". The question remains: what, exactly, can foreigners legally do about it?

I haven't heard any answers yet.

Another matter Luisa mentioned: How about all those people who rush to sign up for Seguro Popular and IMSS to avoid buying private health insurance and/or just paying out of pocket? Mexico is being generous, and foreigners are taking advantage of it.

Worse yet are those who don't even bother to sign up with IMSS or S.P. and just expect their friends and neighbors to pony up the money for their medical bills out of the goodness of their hearts. And, they often do so, bless 'em. But, again, those who are unprepared to pay their own expenses: What were they thinking when they moved here?

Health insurance is offered by most countries trying to encourage retiree migration. It makes no sense for them not to, to expect people to relocate from an area they are covered to one where they aren't. Wish I had gone for it. My out of pocket was hefty. I know some who expect others to contribute to their care and I can't explain that other than "when in Rome...."

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Health insurance is offered by most countries trying to encourage retiree migration. It makes no sense for them not to, to expect people to relocate from an area they are covered to one where they aren't. Wish I had gone for it. My out of pocket was hefty. I know some who expect others to contribute to their care and I can't explain that other than "when in Rome...."

Countries that offer universal heath care for residents and citizens have a most lucrative advantage in the upsurge of worldwide industrial manufacturing the last decade or so. This alone helps keep the costs down for manufactures by keeping employer payments down and wages down for the employees and much more completive alone with worry free retirement by using gov´t. institutionalized medical care. If you consider all the costs in the US and what insurance companies, AMA and the pharmaceutical companies make per person a lot of these expenses are causing wages{compared to other countries] and manufacturing costs to skyrocket there and putting them out of the worldwide market slowly but surely. IMO

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When retirees are thinking of moving to Mexico, away from their Medicare coverage, there are only five ways to go: out of pocket, private health insurance, IMSS, Seguro Popular, and finally.......the kindness of strangers. Mexico provided health care for their poorest citizens and to workers with employer paid IMSS. I doubt they anticipated comparatively (to the poorest Mexicans)well off retirees from NOB using the facilities designed for the poor in order to save a buck on medicines, doctors and hospitalization.

Putting in another way: "when in Rome, take full advantage of the Romans" (without being a citizen or a taxpayer.)??? :huh:

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When retirees are thinking of moving to Mexico, away from their Medicare coverage, there are only five ways to go: out of pocket, private health insurance, IMSS, Seguro Popular, and finally.......the kindness of strangers. Mexico provided health care for their poorest citizens and to workers with employer paid IMSS. I doubt they anticipated comparatively (to the poorest Mexicans)well off retirees from NOB using the facilities designed for the poor in order to save a buck on medicines, doctors and hospitalization.

Putting in another way: "when in Rome, take full advantage of the Romans" (without being a citizen or a taxpayer.)??? :huh:

Whether it was the Mexican governments' intent or not in passing the immigration laws, requiring immigrants to show they can pay the full cost of their own support is not unreasonable, IMO. I doubt they want to attract poor retirees, since the advantage of bringing in better off ones is obvious. They have disposable income and they spend it......in Mexico. Same thing with the new auto requirements: Why give the foreigners a free ride instead of charging them for licenses and helping the burgeoning Mexican auto manufacturers and car dealerships? The U.S. doesn't let Mexicans use their roads without a U.S. license plate. I can't take my Brazilian manufactured car back to the States, since it can't pass the smog tests. I'd have to sell it and "buy American". Tough life. :o

My wife is an administrator here for the Secretaria de Salud which also has the Seguro Popular which she is involved in and you have a few facts wrong about what it really is. It is not exclusively for "poor Mexicans". It is designed to cover all Mexicans and immigrants that do not belong to other health care programs for many reasons other than being poor. Some have a good income and pay a yearly fee up to the maximum which is $14,085 pesos per year per family.

Most "poor Mexicans" actually statistically belong to the IMSS. Their employers pays a monthly amount according to a percentage of their wage which includes spouses, dependenants, either children or disabled or elderly living in their home etc. and might be poor per person in that household by your standards also and this payment also includes a pension accrued when they retire at 65.

The Seguro Poplular is there for many workers who failed to keep permanent jobs or their employer illegally doesn´t contribute to the IMSS. Self employed workers who didn´t qualify for heath reasons, farmers who don´t have the IMSS available to them because of location and many others like the disabled who never belonged to the IMSS or did for a short time and quite paying and got off the IMSS. Divorced women and others that somehow don´t belong to the IMSS now. Retirees who never belonged or got off the IMSS at some point but might have money and property and now have heath issues not covered, etc.

The IMSS will cover almost all heath issues you get along the way if you are a member for years in good health but it has limitations also. In these cases these people are welcome to drop the IMSS medical enrollment and keep the employer paying into the pension side of the IMSS if still working and join the Seguro Popular for medical coverage.

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Thank you for clarifying the IMSS and Seguro Popular matters.

You are quite welcome. It is getting increasing harder to have all employers that do not pay for their employees IMSS coverage the last 10 years and many that go to the Seguro Popular now are being questioned about where they work and employers are being investigated. This is part of the IMSS overhaul and cutting costs and raising revenues.

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When retirees are thinking of moving to Mexico, away from their Medicare coverage, there are only five ways to go: out of pocket, private health insurance, IMSS, Seguro Popular, and finally.......the kindness of strangers. Mexico provided health care for their poorest citizens and to workers with employer paid IMSS. I doubt they anticipated comparatively (to the poorest Mexicans)well off retirees from NOB using the facilities designed for the poor in order to save a buck on medicines, doctors and hospitalization.

Putting in another way: "when in Rome, take full advantage of the Romans" (without being a citizen or a taxpayer.)??? :huh:

It is the responsibility of Mexico to determine if offering health care to retirees, foreign workers is in the long term profitable or not. It is not the responsibility of a retiree to turn down a senior entitlement because some foreign fools try and shame them into believing they are robbing the poor, when actually they do not have any statistical imformation to support that premise.

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It is the responsibility of Mexico to determine if offering health care to retirees, foreign workers is in the long term profitable or not. It is not the responsibility of a retiree to turn down a senior entitlement because some foreign fools try and shame them into believing they are robbing the poor, when actually they do not have any statistical imformation to support that premise.

I agree with you. If you can have decent medical care here and as the letter that comes with your Residente Permanente and Residente Temporal card states, "You are entitled to Mexico´s health care system and other benefits because of your immigration status". This is not something to scoff at and is why Mexico has it in the first place. To provide health care for all citizens and ALL legal residents without prejudice.

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