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Define: Up-to-date TIP


mkshawn

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We entered Mexico with a Canadian Plated car in 2009, at that time we were required to leave an imprint of a current credit card. Well forward to 2013, we still have the Temporary Permit on the car, have been stopped, documents examined without any problems: we were both FM3 then, now both are Residente Temporal.

So we have a J car and expect to have to drive it back, turn in the TIP, not collect anything because nothing was ever charged to the credit card which no longer exists. Card was Stolen 2 seasons ago.

So two changes: FM3 to Temporal & Credit Card. Do we inform Customs of these changes before departing or proceed to the border & exit according to the instructions on the TIP?

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Ours is much older than yours, also a J car, and never have notified Aduana of our many visa changes. We are now awaiting our Permanente and the car will, probably, become illegal. It will just sit in the garage, if need be, in case we should sell out and depart. If not, it is not worth the trip and hassle to take it NoB at our age and condition. Then, there is always the rare chance that Mexico will discover fairness and grandfather such cars.

Fortunately, we also have a Jalisco plated car, so we can still go shopping, etc.

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We have G and J cars and after 1 year FM2 renewed for 3 years Temporal. Since we read our visas should match the TIP, we decided not to take a chance and filed for a 3 year extension. Our facilitator is bringing our papers to the airport Aduana. I know a lot of people will say " they haven't had any problems" but the G car goes to Texas often and we had a lot of trouble once with some young fellow who didn't know the rules and I have been pulled over 4 X in this area ( only once a legitimate infraction). With the way things change and interpretations vary. Just seemed a safe and not too difficult thing to do.

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Basically what Aduana wants is that we remove the "illegal" cars from the country. Personally, I would not give Aduana my new credit card # unless they insist. There was no deposit taken at the border when you brought your car in and it has been legal here since as long as you maintained your FM2 and is still legal on your temporary residency as long as it does not have a work permit attached to it. You will definitely have to show your new temporary residency card to Aduana if applying for an extension on your permit. If there was a break between your FM2s expiring and your new temporary residency status, even if it was one day, judging from other people's experiences posting on the web forums, Aduana will tell you your car is now illegal and has to be removed from the country.

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The expiry date of the TIP you get when coming into Mexico is the same day as the expiry date of the Visa that you presented at the time. When you renew your Visa (as in go from the old "FM3" to "No Inmigrante-Rentista" to "Residente Temporal-Rentista") you must notify Aduana within 15 days. INM does not "automatically" notify Aduana. If you did not do this when your Visa was renewed/extended, you better check to make sure that your TIP is still valid. You COULD be driving around with an illegal vehicle. Also, if you did pay a deposit when you originally took out the TIP, it is likely gone to the Mexican Treasury and you are in for a long battle to get the deposit back.

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The expiry date of the TIP you get when coming into Mexico is the same day as the expiry date of the Visa that you presented at the time. When you renew your Visa (as in go from the old "FM3" to "No Inmigrante-Rentista" to "Residente Temporal-Rentista") you must notify Aduana within 15 days. INM does not "automatically" notify Aduana. If you did not do this when your Visa was renewed/extended, you better check to make sure that your TIP is still valid. You COULD be driving around with an illegal vehicle. Also, if you did pay a deposit when you originally took out the TIP, it is likely gone to the Mexican Treasury and you are in for a long battle to get the deposit back.

I think there is a 'refinement' to your statement about expired TIPS. According to Article 106, one's TIP is valid as long as one retains a valid visa (other than Permanente, without lapse). The requirement to notifiy Aduana pertains only to salvaging the deposit on the TIP. If one entered the country prior to 12 June 2011, there was no deposit so 'no harm, no foul'.... and your permit is still valid. But if one entered after 11 June 2011 and has not notified Aduana annually, the deposit is gone but it is my understanding that the TIP is still valid if your immigration status has been constant and not Permanente.

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I think there is a 'refinement' to your statement about expired TIPS. According to Article 106, one's TIP is valid as long as one retains a valid visa (of some sort, without lapse). The requirement to notfiy Aduana pertains only to salvaging the deposit on the TIP. If one entered the country prior to 12 June 2011, there was no deposit so 'no harm, no foul'.... and your permit is still valid. But if one entered after 11 June 2011 and has not notified Aduana annually the deposit is gone, but it is my understanding that the TIP is still valid if your immigration status has been constant.

Article 106:

".... or by a foreigner who has the same immigration category as one of those herein referenced [inmigrantes rentistas or no inmigrantes], ...."

A Residente Permanente [inmigrado] cannot have a TIP and you are supposed to notify ADUANA in a free form letter every time you get a renewed INM visa or change visa characteristics within 15 days. If you don´t notify them within 45 days your deposit, if you had one, is gone. Any break in renewals invalidates the TIP.

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... you are supposed to notify ADUANA in a free form letter every time you get a renewed INM visa or change visa characteristics within 15 days. If you don´t notify them within 45 days your deposit, if you had one, is gone. Any break in renewals invalidates the TIP.

You are correct. To my understanding this is the way it is SUPPOSED to work. But it doesn't seem to at least in my case. I recently renewed from "No Inmigrado-Rentista" to the new "Residente Temporal-Rentista" and notified Aduana of it within the 15 days. Two months later I crossed the border to cancel my TIP - but no refund to be had. Aduana seems to have forgotten to notify Banjercito of this within the 45 days so my deposit was sent to the Treasury. I contacted Banjercito and they said ..."Sorry, we can't do anything about sending you a refund until Aduana says to send it". Now working with Spencer and his team to try and recover the deposit.

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... it is my understanding that the TIP is still valid if your immigration status has been constant.

I hope this is so or there are probably a lot of folks driving around, unknowingly. with illegal cars.

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You are correct. To my understanding this is the way it is SUPPOSED to work. But it doesn't seem to at least in my case. I recently renewed from "No Inmigrado-Rentista" to the new "Residente Temporal-Rentista" and notified Aduana of it within the 15 days. Two months later I crossed the border to cancel my TIP - but no refund to be had. Aduana seems to have forgotten to notify Banjercito of this within the 45 days so my deposit was sent to the Treasury. I contacted Banjercito and they said ..."Sorry, we can't do anything about sending you a refund until Aduana says to send it". Now working with Spencer and his team to try and recover the deposit.

The problem there is your old visa expired. You had 45 days from that expiration date to notify ADUANA, not 15 days from the date you had your new RT Rentista card in hand. If you did get it in time then I presume ADUANA screwed up.

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I hope this is so or there are probably a lot of folks driving around, unknowingly. with illegal cars.

RickS, on 10 Jun 2013 - 1:42 PM, said:snapback.png

... it is my understanding that the TIP is still valid if your immigration status has been constant.

It´s been confirmed not true by many including letters sent to Expats from ADUANA and yes there are many driving around with invalid TIPs these days.

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The problem there is your old visa expired. You had 45 days from that expiration date to notify ADUANA, not 15 days from the date you had your new RT Rentista card in hand. If you did get it in time then I presume ADUANA screwed up.

Correct. The "No Inmigrante-Rentista" expired before INM in Mexico City sent my new "Residente Temporal-Rentista" to me. I WAS however "In Tramite" since I initiated the renewal at the earliest possible date (30 days prior to expiry) and had already had my photos submitted and fingerprinting done. It did arrive about 1 week later and the Aduana notification of my TIP sticker# was done immediately (within the 15 days of expiry). So where did I screw up??? Seems to me Aduana didn't let Banjercito know.

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TIP Rules:

" Obligation to register and return the vehicle

If you have the temporary importation of a vehicle [TIP] you can not make the sale of it in Mexico and will make their return out of Mexico..

The return of a vehicle in all cases should be performed before presenting his personal vehicle operating Banjército CIITEVen modules output customs, which will give your proof of return and must keep. If you are Mexican living abroad, you can make multiple entries and exits with your vehicle during the term of temporary import permit, existing under warranty or, if necessary, request the cancellation of the warranty and get a refund of the amount of the deposit.

If you performed this procedure on their return out of Mexico at Banjército modules along the border, the General Administration of Customs, may authorize the cancellation of the permit is made in any of the modules Banjército in consulates, announcing by this dates page and consulates that can carry out the return of the vehicle.

If you do not return the vehicle, your deposit will be and Banjército transfer the amount to the Federal Treasury, no later than the second banking day following the day on the expiration of the term of the temporary. If you left a deposit and get an extension, expansion or endorsement of its quality or change in nonimmigrant visa status to immigrant financier [rentista], provided there is continuity in migration categories, so that it does not become affective [the affect from not re-registering the new INM document] must present personally in any of the 49 customs of the country in free format a letter giving notice of that fact within 15 working days following the day on which he shall have been granted an extension, expansion, endorsement or change in immigration status of no immigrant to immigrant financier [rentista] and must attach a copy of proof of such proceedings, and the temporary import permit of the vehicle and, if appropriate, the admission card.

If for some reason can not return the vehicle on time, you are encouraged not to drive, since it will be illegally in the country and may be subject to penalties and seizure of the vehicle."

last modified:

27/mayo/2013, 11:37 current information."

http://www.aduanas.sat.gob.mx/aduana_mexico/2008/vehiculos/141_10028.html

".... Si usted dejó una garantía y obtiene prórroga, ampliación o refrendo a su calidad o cambio en la calidad migratoria de no inmigrante a inmigrante rentista, siempre que exista continuidad en las calidades migratorias, para que la misma no se haga efectiva deberá presentar de forma personal en cualquiera de las 49 aduanas del país un escrito en formato libre, dando aviso de dicha circunstancia, dentro de los 15 días hábiles siguientes a aquel en que le hubiere sido otorgada la prórroga, ampliación ...¨"

It appears your TIP remains valid upon notification in writing to ADUANA or if you do not it expires on the date your last registered [in writing to ADUANA] INM document expired. In the case of your TIP ADUANA has it automatically registered to your passport # and for 180 days on your first FMM 180 day tourist card. After that 180 days it is registered on your 1 year INM visa for 1 year more and on and on until present. If you got visas for the last 10 years and never notified ADUANA of this in writing your TIP was cancelled 10 years ago after your first FMM tourist card 180 days ran out. Deposit or no deposit.

I know this is hard for some to believe but many have been sending letters to ADUANA every year and receive confirmation letters back from ADUANA to carry in their vehicles to show police or whoever. This was normal for many. Some out of ignorance did not.

Verification of a registered TIP:

https://portalsat.plataforma.sat.gob.mx/aduanas_cpitv_internet/index.aspx

"Temporary Import Permit of vehicles:

Insert your permit number or the serial number of your vehicle:[VIN]

Insert your number of the processed document that allows permission (passport, resident card, work visa, etc.):"

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TIP Rules:

" Obligation to register and return the vehicle

If you have the temporary importation of a vehicle [TIP] you can not make the sale of it in Mexico and will make their return out of Mexico..

The return of a vehicle in all cases should be performed before presenting his personal vehicle operating Banjército CIITEVen modules output customs, which will give your proof of return and must keep. If you are Mexican living abroad, you can make multiple entries and exits with your vehicle during the term of temporary import permit, existing under warranty or, if necessary, request the cancellation of the warranty and get a refund of the amount tank.

If you performed this procedure on their return out of Mexico at Banjército modules along the border, the General Administration of Customs, may authorize the cancellation of the permit is made in any of the modules Banjército in consulates, announcing by this dates page and consulates that can carry out the return of the vehicle.

If you do not return the vehicle, your deposit will be and Banjército transfer the amount to the Federal Treasury, no later than the second banking day following the day on the expiration of the term of the temporary. If you left a deposit and get an extension, expansion or endorsement of its quality or change in nonimmigrant visa status to immigrant financier [rentista], provided there is continuity in migration categories, so that it does not become affective [the affect from not re-registering the new INM document] must present personally in any of the 49 customs of the country in free format a letter giving notice of that fact within 15 working days following the day on which he shall have been granted an extension, expansion, endorsement or change in immigration status of no immigrant to immigrant financier [rentista] and must attach a copy of proof of such proceedings, and the temporary import permit of the vehicle and, if appropriate, the admission card.

If for some reason can not return the vehicle on time, you are encouraged not to drive, since it will be illegally in the country and may be subject to penalties and seizure of the vehicle."

http://www.aduanas.sat.gob.mx/aduana_mexico/2008/vehiculos/141_10028.html

".... Si usted dejó una garantía y obtiene prórroga, ampliación o refrendo a su calidad o cambio en la calidad migratoria de no inmigrante a inmigrante rentista, siempre que exista continuidad en las calidades migratorias, para que la misma no se haga efectiva deberá presentar de forma personal en cualquiera de las 49 aduanas del país un escrito en formato libre, dando aviso de dicha circunstancia, dentro de los 15 días hábiles siguientes a aquel en que le hubiere sido otorgada la prórroga, ampliación ...¨"

It appears your TIP remains valid upon notification in writing to ADUANA or if you do not it expires on the date your last registered [in writing to ADUANA] INM document expired. In the case of your TIP ADUANA has it automatically registered to your passport # and for 180 days on your first FMM 180 day tourist card. After that 180 days it is registered on your 1 year INM visa for 1 year more and on and on until present. If you got visas for the last 10 years and never notified ADUANA of this in writing your TIP was cancelled 10 years ago after your first FMM tourist card 180 days ran out. Deposit or no deposit.

I know this is hard for some to believe but many have been sending letters to ADUANA every year and receive confirmation letters back from ADUANA to carry in their vehicles to show police or whoever. This was normal for many. Some out of ignorance did not.

Verification of a registered TIP:

https://portalsat.plataforma.sat.gob.mx/aduanas_cpitv_internet/index.aspx

"Temporary Import Permit of vehicles:

Insert your permit number or the serial number of your vehicle:[VIN]

Insert your number of the processed document that allows permission (passport, resident card, work visa, etc.):"

We received our TIP in 2004 and it appears we are no longer in the system, according to the SAT website.

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We received our TIP in 2004 and it appears we are no longer in the system, according to the SAT website.

From reading web boards [3] I have a feeling nobody in the SAT ADUANA will do anything if you turn the sticker in somewhere either leaving the country or already nationalizing your vehicle somewhere. That seems to be the current pattern now. Deposit lost, no fine.

Also it appears most police stops don´t result in any big deal .Most police everywhere don´t understand TIP rules and the few who do ask for a few pesos or something like that in years past if you have no updated letter from ADUANA. It appears only now with many Expats going Residente Permanente that cancelled TIPs are in the lime light, at least for Expats, really who knows about the police?

According to Article 106 of the SAT ADUANA LAW it is OK to drive around with a TIP IF your INM visa is current and you have Rentista [retiree] status and are not an Inmigrante with a lucritiva or an Inmigrado. Therefore there is a grey area where you might not have followed the ADUANA RULES but are within the LAW according to Article 106.

Showing these 2 documents, the TIP receipt, your allowable INM visa and a copy of Article 106 to police when stopped was enough. They would have to call in an ADUANA agent to impound your car if your TIP was canceled if that was the case.

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The rewritten ADUANA law now has the following addition:

"The vehicles covered by this subsection, shall meet the requirements specified by Regulations ..[Rules]"

Out of country

To Return in the Same State

Concept of temporary import: [TIP]

ARTICLE 106. - Means temporary importation,[TIP] the goods enter the country to stay in

here limited time and for a specific purpose, provided that returned out of the country in the same state, for the following periods:

IV. - For the term tied to thier last immigration status, including extensions, in the following cases:

a) vehicles owned by foreigners who enter the country as immigrants [non lucritiva inmigrantes] [rentistas] or annuitants [pensioners] nonimmigrants [no inmigrantes], except in the case of refugees and asylum seekers, provided that it is a single vehicle.

Vehicles imported by tourists and local visitors, even non-property and tried to

a single vehicle.

See: THE 182 III 139 RLA.

Vehicles may be driven on national territory by the importer, his spouse, ascendants,

descendants or siblings, even if they are not foreigners, by a foreigner who has any of

migratory qualities referred to in this subsection, or by a national, provided that in the latter case, travel with the same any individuals authorized to drive the vehicle and may proceed multiple entrances and exits.

The vehicles covered by this subsection, shall meet the requirements specified by Regulation .."

Article 106 did have reference to the ADUANA rules in the past.

To carry a copy of any updated Article 106 law from at least 2002 on is a poke in the eye without a current letter from ADUANA.

Carrying a copy of the old ADUANA Article 106 law [who knows when they did not have a clause stipulating the rules were not as they are today and a letter authorizing your TIP was needed or when they published the rule that you must notify ADUANA by a freeform letter of renewals of INM visas or INM status changes?] was a way to get police off your back if they mentioned the expired date on your windshield TIP sticker and you had no current letter from ADUANA to show them. I guess things change.

ftp://ftp2.sat.gob.mx/asistencia_ftp/publicaciones/legislacion04/LA.pdf

Appears the law back in 2002 had the same "follow the rules" clause also:

"a) vehicles owned by foreigners who enter the country as immigrants or nonimmigrants annuitants, except in the case of refugees and asylum seekers, provided that it is a single vehicle.

Vehicles imported by tourists and local visitors, even non-property and the case of a single vehicle.

Vehicles may be driven in the country by the importer, your spouse, your parents, children or siblings, even if they are not foreigners, by a foreigner who has any of the qualities referred migrating this subsection, or by a national provided that in the latter case, the same trip aboard any of the persons authorized to drive the vehicle and may make multiple entries and exits.

The vehicles covered by this subsection, shall comply with the requirements of the Regulations.

Paragraph reformed DOF 12/30/1996, 31-12-1998, 01-01-2002"

http://www.aduanas.sat.gob.mx/aduana_mexico/2008/normatividad/143_17385.html

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Quote ALANMEXICALLI

It appears your TIP remains valid upon notification in writing to ADUANA or if you do not it expires on the date your last registered [in writing to ADUANA] INM document expired. tourist card. After that 180 days it is registered onIn the case of your TIP ADUANA has it automatically registered to your passport # and for 180 days on your first FMM 180 day your 1 year INM visa for 1 year more and on and on until present. If you got visas for the last 10 years and never notified ADUANA of this in writing your TIP was cancelled 10 years ago after your first FMM tourist card 180 days ran out. Deposit or no deposit._______________________________________________________________________________________
You have been very accommodating with so many posts ---Can you Clarify your statement- a might confusing
In my case I got my FM3 and my TIP at a Mexican Consulate before coming to Mexico-Never paid a deposit--never had an FMM- crossed border in 2005 at a little known crossing in Az.where we were the only car on a dirt road and was just waived through and never registered at any Inspection station- My FM3 was always current with no lapses and converted to Temporal this year for 2 more years - I've never advised Aduana following Law 106
At this point, assume since FM3 has been replaced by Temporal according to INM regulations with same expiration date that my car continues to be valid under the original TIP- Why at this point would I need to stir the pot with Aduana???
If you have a different idea- would appreciate an explanation
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Quote ALANMEXICALLI

It appears your TIP remains valid upon notification in writing to ADUANA or if you do not it expires on the date your last registered [in writing to ADUANA] INM document expired. tourist ca

rd. After that 180 days it is registered onIn the case of your TIP ADUANA has it automatically registered to your passport # and for 180 days on your first FMM 180 day your 1 year INM visa for 1 year more and on and on until present. If you got visas for the last 10 years and never notified ADUANA of this in writing your TIP was cancelled 10 years ago after your first FMM tourist card 180 days ran out. Deposit or no deposit._______________________________________________________________________________________

You have been very accommodating with so many posts ---Can you Clarify your statement- a might confusing

In my case I got my FM3 and my TIP at a Mexican Consulate before coming to Mexico-Never paid a deposit--never had an FMM- crossed border in 2005 at a little known crossing in Az.where we were the only car on a dirt road and was just waived through and never registered at any Inspection station- My FM3 was always current with no lapses and converted to Temporal this year for 2 more years - I've never advised Aduana following Law 106

At this point, assume since FM3 has been replaced by Temporal according to INM regulations with same expiration date that my car continues to be valid under the original TIP- Why at this point would I need to stir the pot with Aduana???

If you have a different idea- would appreciate an explanation

Did you put in your TIP number here to see if it still there or has been cancelled?

https://portalsat.plataforma.sat.gob.mx/aduanas_cpitv_internet/index.aspx

According to what you state my guess is your TIP was valid for 1 year. Without following the TIP rules it was most likely canceled when you renewed your FM3 and the expired date on your 1st. FM3 passed 15 to 45 days.

I feel there is no need for you to go to ADUANA now. What can you accomplish?

If you happen to be going north for a trip it might be a good idea to have it removed at the border. Many that have expired TIPs have done this over the years and recently some have mentioned no fines.

When you come back in try for another TIP with the receipt they gave your when handing your old TIP in.

Many state the website at SAT can take weeks to months to update but a few have had RT cards and gotten TIPs on the border recently with no problem.

Considering everything I feel it is no big deal as how many Expats drive around with the paperwork disordered and still keep driving? Not much has changed in the eyes of police as they probably are not trained in TIPs, only very few Expat concentrations exist in Mexico, so I suspect only ADUANA agents are party to the laws and rules.

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rd. After that 180 days it is registered onIn the case of your TIP ADUANA has it automatically registered to your passport # and for 180 days on your first FMM 180 day your 1 year INM visa for 1 year more and on and on until present. If you got visas for the last 10 years and never notified ADUANA of this in writing your TIP was cancelled 10 years ago after your first FMM tourist card 180 days ran out. Deposit or no deposit._______________________________________________________________________________________

You have been very accommodating with so many posts ---Can you Clarify your statement- a might confusing

In my case I got my FM3 and my TIP at a Mexican Consulate before coming to Mexico-Never paid a deposit--never had an FMM- crossed border in 2005 at a little known crossing in Az.where we were the only car on a dirt road and was just waived through and never registered at any Inspection station- My FM3 was always current with no lapses and converted to Temporal this year for 2 more years - I've never advised Aduana following Law 106

At this point, assume since FM3 has been replaced by Temporal according to INM regulations with same expiration date that my car continues to be valid under the original TIP- Why at this point would I need to stir the pot with Aduana???

If you have a different idea- would appreciate an explanation

Did you put in your TIP number here to see if it still there or has been cancelled?

https://portalsat.plataforma.sat.gob.mx/aduanas_cpitv_internet/index.aspx

According to what you state my guess is your TIP was valid for 1 year. Without following the TIP rules it was most likely canceled when you renewed your FM3 and the expired date on your 1st. FM3 passed 15 to 45 days.

I feel there is no need for you to go to ADUANA now. What can you accomplish?

If you happen to be going north for a trip it might be a good idea to have it removed at the border. Many that have expired TIPs have done this over the years and recently some have mentioned no fines.

When you come back in try for another TIP with the receipt they gave your when handing your old TIP in.

Many state the website at SAT can take weeks to months to update but a few have had RT cards and gotten TIPs on the border recently with no problem.

In a police stop I would have a copy of the old ADUANA Law Article 106 to let them read if they mention your TIP now, if you didn´t have a copy before.

Considering everything I feel it is no big deal as how many Expats drive around with the paperwork disordered and still keep driving? Not much has changed in the eyes of police as they probably are not trained in TIPs, only very few Expat concentrations exist in Mexico, so I suspect only ADUANA agents are party to the laws and rules.

Alan

Thanks for the clarification- Have never heard anything else other than what your post above states (see below)

-Spencer had agreed with this interpretation of legal vehicles - concurrent with no lapse in Visa Status

Until this discussion erupted for people changing visa status to Permanente most of us followed the precept of not allowing our visa's to expire - even if they changed numbers on renewal date with no lapse presumption our TIPS were concurrent with Visa's

Concept of temporary import: [TIP]

ARTICLE 106. - Means temporary importation,[TIP] the goods enter the country to stay in

here limited time and for a specific purpose, provided that returned out of the country in the same state, for the following periods:

your last post states the following--

IV. - For the term tied to thier last immigration status, including extensions, in the following cases:

a) vehicles owned by foreigners who enter the country as immigrants [non lucritiva inmigrantes] [rentistas] or annuitants [pensioners] nonimmigrants [no inmigrantes], except in the case of refugees and asylum seekers, provided that it is a single vehicle.

I make 2 trips a year by air to the US have not\ intention of driving- unless I leave the country for good- so will continue driving with copy of 106 -have never been stopped in 7 years -no reason to start anything with Aduana at this late date.

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Alan

Thanks for the clarification- Have never heard anything else other than what your post above states (see below)

I make 2 trips a year by air to the US have not\ intention of driving- unless I leave the country for good- so will continue driving with copy of 106 -have never been stopped in 7 years -no reason to start anything with Aduana at this late date.

Thanks Privado, you are a gentleman and a scholar.

Your plan sounds solid. Not much can change for drivers of foreign plated vehicles [decade of the same thing going on] that have been in the same position, yet. IMO

I would hope other posters were as appreciative as you as [a few are], but won´t get my hopes up. Regards Alan

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Echo that Alan,

I'm a very patient person, we are here in Mexico without a lot of baggage. I have learned, not to rush into any decision, as an old colleague used to say, never respond; let 24 hrs go by? You would be surprised how many issues are resolved. Cheers all for the input!

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