Jump to content
Chapala.com Webboard

Retorno Seguro update


Intercasa

Recommended Posts

I have been informed that I need to go to Guadalajara on Wednesday to get fongerprinted for my permanente. I gather that I will receive my card in 3 weeks .

I am Canadian and have a Canadian plated J car, and reading the last few posts and with all the previous problems I have made the decision to drive the car up to Canada in the next three weeks and fly back. The only other option is to give the car (a minivan) to a charity. Somewhere I have read that this is a possibility if done before the car becomes illegal. It makes financial sense to me to give the vehicle to someone . It is in good condition but probably worth no more than $2000 or so to a dealer up there for cash. By the time I have paid for return flights, hotels, gas , taken the kids out to dinner done all the necessary visiting, (maybe have a night in Vegas on the way up). I would be losing money. Night in Vegas would have to go.!!! If I gave the car away I would have no car but no expenses either.

I somewhere read that Spencer said that the donation thing had not been thrown out of the window. Just wondered if anyone knew for sure.

Sorry to be a pain , but second question The authorities have my FM2 . I do have a copy of a letter telling whoever is interested that they have it. Would I need to worry about getting back into Mexico at the airport ? I assume that this is not the first time this has happened

I know someone, who is here visiting at the moment, that has said that there is a B.C. Canada registered non profit that will give you a tax receipt for your Canadian plated, road worthy vehicle if you want to donate it. They will come to Mexico and pick it up and drive it back. It has to be worth at least 4K (Price to buy) to do this as the non profit has to pay for the transportation and transfer of the vehicle. PM me and I can put you in contact with this person, if you want. He knows what to do as he is taking a Canadian plated vehicle back this week.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Since your INM card is en tramite, and not in your posession, you cannot leave or re-enter Mexico unless you get a special letter from INM. Spencer can help you get that letter, which will allow you up to 60 days outside of Mexico without your visa. There is a small charge, I believe.

Your other option would be to wait until you get your new Residente Permanente visa, at which time your car will become illegal and any deposit would be forfeit, but you could then apply for a Retorno Segoro five day permit to drive the car out of Mexico legally. Then, you could stay as long as you like.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They also indicated that the Canadian Embassy has been meeting with Mexican authorities regarding all the problems and complaints they have received from Canadians. They ask that Canadians send them accounts of problems and this actually assists them in their discussions their counterparts. You can email to gjara@international.gc.ca and reference "vehicle importation complaint" in the subject heading.

Thanks for the email address. This was the email I just sent.

Good morning

As a Canadian, living in Mexico, married to a Mexican and being a Permanent Resident I have many concerns with the new vehicle laws. My wife assists expats, many whom are Canadians with visas, car issues, healthcare, driver's licenses, etc.

1. A person applies for a Permanent Resident visa at a consulate. They have a pre-approved visa stamped in their passport. They drive to Mexico and pay a deposit of $200 to $400. They see an expiration date on their car permit which is usually 30 days and start to wonder. They have 30 days to apply for a visa. This visa in most places, including San Miguel takes at least 4 weeks, some longer. They apply and typically a week later they are finger printed and signatures provided. Up to this point the Mexican consulate in Canada nor the local immigration office in Mexico has mentioned cars. Via talking to someone, web boards, friends etc they may discover their car is about to be illegal. After the fingerprints they can pay 320 pesos for a letter from INM allowing them to leave Mexico for up to 60 days. They now have to rush back driving to Canada, sell their car and fly to Mexico to pick up their new Permanent Resident visa. If they did not discover the fact their car is illegal once they get their Permanent Resident visa another huge problem. Their deposit is forfeited. Their car can be confiscated. Insurance may not cover them in an accident. All of this is often unknown to the Canadian now in Mexico.

2. Many of us became Permanent Residents very early after the new laws were implemented November 9, 2012. For me, my wife called Aduana in Mexico City and our nearest office in Queretaro. She spoke in Spanish as she is Mexican as I noted. Every 2 to 3 weeks she would call to confirm. Each time she was told our Ontario Canada plated vehicle was legal. Then suddenly in early May the answers were, no your car is illegal. Total confusion on the part of many expats.

3. An expat drove to Mexico as her visa was about to expire. The day before expiration she entered Mexico and was given a car permit expiring the next day which was the expiration date of her no-inmigrante visa. She had a 3 on the back of her visa. This means 3 renewals and about to be at the end of 4 years. On the date of expiration she renewed her visa as required by INM. She has to become Permanent or leave the country and start the process over at a consulate to become a Temporary Resident. Aduana's web site is not current. She had no way of knowing within 24 hours after entering mexico her car was illegal, her deposit of $300 loss and unable to get a letter from INM to leave the country while visa in process as they won't issue the letter until approved and finger prints done about a week later.

4. An expat with whom my wife assisted for her visa in the past had a FM-3 lucritiva meaning she was legally allowed to work. Then she had a no-inmigrante lucritiva. In both cases she was allowed to have a foreign plated car. She recenetly renewed and her visa automatically became a Temporary Resident lucritiva. She went to Aduana in Queretaro and was told her car is illegal, her deposit lost. Aduana arbitrarily in the past two to 3 weeks changed the law effective immediately stating a Temporary resident with the right to work can not have a foreign plated car. How would any one know? It is not on their web site!. INM and Aduana have no relationship. Her predicament is horrible. To even drive her illegal car out of Mexico she needs to celaya an hour away two times to get a Returno Seguro letter allowing her 5 days to drive the car legally and take it out of Mexico.

These are but a few of the problems expats including Canadians are experiencing at this time.

Only cars 2007 and older can be nationalized. In most cases this must be done at the border. They must use a broker. The broker charge $1000 plus and then Aduana fees are 10% of value of vehicle, plus $50 for inspection plus 400 pesos for a 15 day permit to drive car. In all nationalizing a car starts at $2000 plus if even possible. Only cars made in Mexico, US and Canada can be nationalized, not cars made in Asia, Europe etc. If one moves to Canada they have a set period of time to import their car and at a much lower fee. Similarly, one moving to the US and importing a car from Canada has usually6 months to do so and the fees are much less.

May I suggest Aduana needs printed laws available to everyone on their web site etc. The laws need to be transparent and posted well in advance of implementation. Aduana has to communicate with INM. There should have been some grandfathering of current visa holders and a way to nationalize simply, in a timely manner such as say 6 months and at an Aduana office in each state without need for a broker. Deposits should not be loss when there was no way to meet the frequently changing rules implemented on a moment's notice. Consulates need to inform all those applying for a visa be it Temporary or Permanent Resident.

There are hundreds of thousands of cars from mostly Texas, driven by Mexicans with no car permits referred to as "chocolates" and totally ignored. yet, the expat population is being singled out.

No one wants to intentionally break laws. No one wants to have an illegal car. No one wants to loose a deposit when they have done everything possible to follow the known laws. It is time for common sense, respect for the expat community, communication and fairness.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Your points are right on, ajiijic. I live in a different part of Mexico and drove a 1995 Toyota here in 2007. My credit card has never been charged with a deposit even though I never registered visa renewals with aduana.

I am unable to physically drive my vehicle out of Mexico due to health problems. I can't sell it. I can't nationalize it because it was made in Japan. I am currently still driving it because I have no choice.

I am working with an immigration lawyer on an amparo. The amparo law was updated last month to include acts of omission or government decisions that violate rights granted in the Mexican Constitution. Article 14 of the constitution states that the government can not take away a right that was previously granted. The amparo law also deals with acts by the government that cannot be rectified any other way. The new law also changed to allow for class action type claims by people who are in the same situation. In fact, if the ruling goes in my favor, it would protect others facing the same ordeal even if they do not join in the claim.

It might be futile but I cannot continue to simply fret and worry over this vehicle issue. If I had the money, I could buy a Mexican car and park my Toyota but that's not an option on my budget.

I'll let you all know what happens.

Link to post
Share on other sites

There is another aspect to using the Retorno Seguro to return one's car to the border. (to some degree discussed in another spread)

That is the issue of insurance.

Catch 22.

If you just turned permanente. you need to get a Retorno Seguro to bring the car to the USA, But depending on your insurance company, you are now driving without coverage. Not a good idea.

I checked with my broker, and they tell me that HDI insurance will honor all existing folks insurance, even if they convert to Permanente during the year of coverage, but they will NOT renew it as a tourist policy. The same broker advises that Qualitas said to them that they will NOT honor existing policies of owners who converted from temporary to Permenente , even though the policy has been paid for.

Maybe Spenser, who is talking to Aduana can help us with this 'catch 22" situation

Link to post
Share on other sites

If a Retorno Seguro is issued, the car is legal for that five day period. As such, one should be able to drive it under the existing policy. However, logic also seems to indicate that a new policy would not be issued.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Thanks for the email address. This was the email I just sent.

Good morning

As a Canadian, living in Mexico, married to a Mexican and being a Permanent Resident I have many concerns with the new vehicle laws. My wife assists expats, many whom are Canadians with visas, car issues, healthcare, driver's licenses, etc.

1. A person applies for a Permanent Resident visa at a consulate. They have a pre-approved visa stamped in their passport. They drive to Mexico and pay a deposit of $200 to $400. They see an expiration date on their car permit which is usually 30 days and start to wonder. They have 30 days to apply for a visa. This visa in most places, including San Miguel takes at least 4 weeks, some longer. They apply and typically a week later they are finger printed and signatures provided. Up to this point the Mexican consulate in Canada nor the local immigration office in Mexico has mentioned cars. Via talking to someone, web boards, friends etc they may discover their car is about to be illegal. After the fingerprints they can pay 320 pesos for a letter from INM allowing them to leave Mexico for up to 60 days. They now have to rush back driving to Canada, sell their car and fly to Mexico to pick up their new Permanent Resident visa. If they did not discover the fact their car is illegal once they get their Permanent Resident visa another huge problem. Their deposit is forfeited. Their car can be confiscated. Insurance may not cover them in an accident. All of this is often unknown to the Canadian now in Mexico.

2. Many of us became Permanent Residents very early after the new laws were implemented November 9, 2012. For me, my wife called Aduana in Mexico City and our nearest office in Queretaro. She spoke in Spanish as she is Mexican as I noted. Every 2 to 3 weeks she would call to confirm. Each time she was told our Ontario Canada plated vehicle was legal. Then suddenly in early May the answers were, no your car is illegal. Total confusion on the part of many expats.

3. An expat drove to Mexico as her visa was about to expire. The day before expiration she entered Mexico and was given a car permit expiring the next day which was the expiration date of her no-inmigrante visa. She had a 3 on the back of her visa. This means 3 renewals and about to be at the end of 4 years. On the date of expiration she renewed her visa as required by INM. She has to become Permanent or leave the country and start the process over at a consulate to become a Temporary Resident. Aduana's web site is not current. She had no way of knowing within 24 hours after entering mexico her car was illegal, her deposit of $300 loss and unable to get a letter from INM to leave the country while visa in process as they won't issue the letter until approved and finger prints done about a week later.

4. An expat with whom my wife assisted for her visa in the past had a FM-3 lucritiva meaning she was legally allowed to work. Then she had a no-inmigrante lucritiva. In both cases she was allowed to have a foreign plated car. She recenetly renewed and her visa automatically became a Temporary Resident lucritiva. She went to Aduana in Queretaro and was told her car is illegal, her deposit lost. Aduana arbitrarily in the past two to 3 weeks changed the law effective immediately stating a Temporary resident with the right to work can not have a foreign plated car. How would any one know? It is not on their web site!. INM and Aduana have no relationship. Her predicament is horrible. To even drive her illegal car out of Mexico she needs to celaya an hour away two times to get a Returno Seguro letter allowing her 5 days to drive the car legally and take it out of Mexico.

These are but a few of the problems expats including Canadians are experiencing at this time.

Only cars 2007 and older can be nationalized. In most cases this must be done at the border. They must use a broker. The broker charge $1000 plus and then Aduana fees are 10% of value of vehicle, plus $50 for inspection plus 400 pesos for a 15 day permit to drive car. In all nationalizing a car starts at $2000 plus if even possible. Only cars made in Mexico, US and Canada can be nationalized, not cars made in Asia, Europe etc. If one moves to Canada they have a set period of time to import their car and at a much lower fee. Similarly, one moving to the US and importing a car from Canada has usually6 months to do so and the fees are much less.

May I suggest Aduana needs printed laws available to everyone on their web site etc. The laws need to be transparent and posted well in advance of implementation. Aduana has to communicate with INM. There should have been some grandfathering of current visa holders and a way to nationalize simply, in a timely manner such as say 6 months and at an Aduana office in each state without need for a broker. Deposits should not be loss when there was no way to meet the frequently changing rules implemented on a moment's notice. Consulates need to inform all those applying for a visa be it Temporary or Permanent Resident.

There are hundreds of thousands of cars from mostly Texas, driven by Mexicans with no car permits referred to as "chocolates" and totally ignored. yet, the expat population is being singled out.

No one wants to intentionally break laws. No one wants to have an illegal car. No one wants to loose a deposit when they have done everything possible to follow the known laws. It is time for common sense, respect for the expat community, communication and fairness.

Response from Canadian Embassy:

Thank you for contacting the Embassy of Canada.
The Embassy has raised many vehicle importation related issues with Mexican Customs officials. However, we are not in a position to interfere in the implementation and administration of Mexican legislation and regulations.
We encourage you to discuss your issue directly with the Mexican Customs office at : 01-800-463-6728 or send them an e-mail at :
CIITEV_AduanasMexico@sat.gob.mx . We have been advised that they have staff who can respond in English.
Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure I am entirely on topic but am in the ball park !!

I am getting my vehicle (J car) out of Mexico this weekend whilst it is still legal. I am insured while still in Mexico. I am still FM2 and although I do not have the card, I have the appropriate paperwork. I assume that I will be able to buy insurance at the border which will allow me to get through the USA. Is that correct ?

Does anyone know if I can get insurance to get me into Canada (B.C.) ICBC cannot issue insurance on line . I need to be able to drive 5 miles into Canada. Once there it seems that I will be able get insurance easily. Wondered if anyone had solved this problem .

Also this is extremely ulikely but a possibility and I would like to know where I stand. What if someone gave me a car (it would definitely be a NAFTA vehicle) Could I get a permanent import permit at the border, I will still be FM2 . If I can get one will it take long ? Would I be at the border for a period? OR would I need to bring it down here and start all over again?

Thanks

Link to post
Share on other sites

We are still having issues with Canadians at the Guadalajara office that covers the municipality of Chapala. Zapopan office is giving us no problems so those Joco people can rest easy although we have to do more paperwork and they have to bring their car in for inspection.

We will probably charge Canadians an extra $500 pesos because we have to submit everything twice in the majority of cases which means 4 trips to Guadalajara and asking for hearings, etc.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Not sure I am entirely on topic but am in the ball park !!

I am getting my vehicle (J car) out of Mexico this weekend whilst it is still legal. I am insured while still in Mexico. I am still FM2 and although I do not have the card, I have the appropriate paperwork. I assume that I will be able to buy insurance at the border which will allow me to get through the USA. Is that correct ?

Does anyone know if I can get insurance to get me into Canada (B.C.) ICBC cannot issue insurance on line . I need to be able to drive 5 miles into Canada. Once there it seems that I will be able get insurance easily. Wondered if anyone had solved this problem .

Also this is extremely ulikely but a possibility and I would like to know where I stand. What if someone gave me a car (it would definitely be a NAFTA vehicle) Could I get a permanent import permit at the border, I will still be FM2 . If I can get one will it take long ? Would I be at the border for a period? OR would I need to bring it down here and start all over again?

Thanks

Several years ago when I drove my Canadian plated vehicle back to Canada I phoned ICBC and they issued me, I think, 10 days worth of insurance coverage in order to get it up there.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Ajijic- the response you received from the Canadian embassy to your very good letter appears not at all helpful. I sent a similar letter to CIITEV and their reply basically was that what I had to say was of no importance to them.

I notice we haven't heard anything from the President of Mexico on this car outrage- and he claims to be encouraging foreign investment. Perhaps letters should be sent to his office rather than Aduana?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, at least you GOT a response from CITEV. I inquired about my lost TIP deposit and didn't even get a reply (yet).

Link to post
Share on other sites

A friend made two trips to Celaya and obtained her Returno Seguro. She was not stopped enroute to the border and at Reynosa no one wanted to even see it or acknowledge it when she insisted they look at it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We tried to do everything legally, but gave up. My brother was waiting for the Retorno Seguro but just had to leave. I don't know what we could have done differently. Contacted the lawyer over a month in advance to review how to legally remove a BC vehicle by someone other than the person who imported it on the TIP etc. Trying to work with the lawyer to begin the process of obtaining the Retorno Seguro with enough lead time that it would be ready. All a waste of money.

We talked about it and decided to take the risk and he just drove it through to Nogales. No stops anywhere, no problems. I am very glad to have it out of the Country.

If we ever do get the Retorno Seguro, I will include it with a detailed list of dates and times of when the application was submitted and how many times the lawyer had to return to the office. I want to send this on to a cousin, who is a journalist in Canada. Just want to warn people from BC to consider the consequences of having their vehicle stuck here should something happen where they can not drive it home.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I am the one who was in the SAT office 3 hours yesterday to find out they changed their policy once again. My associate was also there 2 hours earlier in the day and I was there Thursday night and also Wednesday twice. They are really shafting Canadians as they just don't get it, even after I show them a letter from the consulate as well as a letter from ICBC they still make me wait hours, do multiple trips and the like, this is the Guadalajara Sur office which covers the Chapala municipality. During my frequent multi hour visits I met other Mexicans there who also had encountered the same thing.

I am fed up but there is no choice and I am hoping my time is an investment, not just being a pawn in some sick game of how they can break my patience. I have head so many stories of people getting stopped and hassled, even Mexicans and shaken down. What choice do I have? Allow these people to risk it or at least try so that worst case they will have no problems.

NEW UPDATE: Guadalajara office now wants certified copies, said they always did but then stuttered when I said how come I never give you them before and I got all these permisos..... then the deer in the headlight blank stare.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Spencer you have more patience than me and most people.

I wonder if LCS could have a meeting for the public with representatives from the Canadian and American consulates.

They meaning the auto dealers and Aduana want foreign plated cars out of the country and then do everything possible to thwart the efforts of honest expats. Does Mexico really want expats here? For the first time I am doubting it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Spencer you have more patience than me and most people.

I wonder if LCS could have a meeting for the public with representatives from the Canadian and American consulates.

They meaning the auto dealers and Aduana want foreign plated cars out of the country and then do everything possible to thwart the efforts of honest expats. Does Mexico really want expats here? For the first time I am doubting it.

In my opinion. I think that Expats are not reacting very well to the Mexico´s Social Democracy´s bureaucrats gone wild syndrome. You of all people should have gone through this phase in Canada in the 70s and understand it´s evolution to ridiculousness better than American Expats of retirement age. You forgot? Alan

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alan are you smoking something? There is no relevancy to Canada in the 70's! And what has this got to do with the subject? "YOU OF ALL PEOPLE"? :017::018:

Link to post
Share on other sites

Alan are you smoking something? There is no relevancy to Canada in the 70's! And what has this got to do with the subject? "YOU OF ALL PEOPLE"? :017::018:

If this whole thread isn´t about bureaucrats gone wild and their mumble jumble, what is it about? Working over residents on purpose?

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, I am the one who was in the SAT office 3 hours yesterday to find out they changed their policy once again. My associate was also there 2 hours earlier in the day and I was there Thursday night and also Wednesday twice. They are really shafting Canadians as they just don't get it, even after I show them a letter from the consulate as well as a letter from ICBC they still make me wait hours, do multiple trips and the like, this is the Guadalajara Sur office which covers the Chapala municipality. During my frequent multi hour visits I met other Mexicans there who also had encountered the same thing.

I am fed up but there is no choice and I am hoping my time is an investment, not just being a pawn in some sick game of how they can break my patience. I have head so many stories of people getting stopped and hassled, even Mexicans and shaken down. What choice do I have? Allow these people to risk it or at least try so that worst case they will have no problems.

NEW UPDATE: Guadalajara office now wants certified copies, said they always did but then stuttered when I said how come I never give you them before and I got all these permisos..... then the deer in the headlight blank stare.

Yeah. I certainly don't begrudge the, relative to the time spent by the law office, fee. Its the SAT people I am mad at. Do you not think they are waiting for someone to offer a "fee" to obtain the document? If an individual went in and said, "how much would it cost to get the document by tomorrow?", would that help? It would be an interesting experiment.

And certified copies from where? A Notorio? What are they certifying?

I joked with a friend that we should just create some holographic stickers to put on the ICBC document so they would look "official".

Link to post
Share on other sites

They aren't corrupt, actually at the federal level few office are or are less, they just are overworked and I am giving them more in a week than they get in months and they are very picky. Certified copies from a notario, so yes costs will go up as now we need the copies plus many calls and visits.

Link to post
Share on other sites

They aren't corrupt, actually at the federal level few office are or are less, they just are overworked and I am giving them more in a week than they get in months and they are very picky. Certified copies from a notario, so yes costs will go up as now we need the copies plus many calls and visits.

So if you have a car from BC, here are some tips:

1. Get it out of the Country before you get your Permanente

2. Make sure your TIP is up to date

3. If you can't drive it, get a friend or someone to drive it for you (with you in it) or go to a Notorio and create a document that states you give permission to the driver (who has the same type of visa) to drive it... certified. Provide copies of passport and visa.

If it can not be taken to Canada, you can put it in storage in Arizona for a reasonable rate. I checked into this and there were several storage facilities that are secure and covered.

If you do this, you can relax for a short period of time. ICBC can provide something for you, can't recall what it is called, to update your registration. Not sure about insurance.

This way, you can avoid the SAT document all together.

We had two problems, in our case. One was that we had to transfer title before the car was removed from the Country. The other is that the seller did not keep the TIP up to date. Sooooooooo glad it is out of here!

Link to post
Share on other sites

That's part of it, ValGal. So what is the next step? Do you already have a second car, planning to go without a car or buying a car here in Mexico?

I have always had a Mexican plated car. And I just put a deposit on a second one, to arrive this summer. I had friends that had to leave the country and needed to get rid of their NAFTA 2004 Odyssey. I bought it, had a buyer in Canada, and took it off their hands. I felt sorry for them. Wish I was not such a sap. It was a much bigger headache to get rid of because I have a permanente. At the time we were doing this, importation sounded too expensive and the vehicle would have to get to the border in any case. Soooo............ What a difference a month makes!

At least I paid just a little over half of blue book. Has cost me about 2 grand to transfer title, insure in two countries, a few minor repairs and body work and gas and quotas to return the vehicle. Initially, I was quoted 35000 to import. The initial buyer fell through, but I am sure to get the money back. I will not do it again. Please, folks who are selling your Canadian cars...... accept you are not going to get bluebook. You have to make these cars a bargain in order for people to make the trip down. Or.... wait for the snow birds who have to go home anyway.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

×
×
  • Create New...