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Retorno Seguro update


Intercasa

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So today we got 2 people their Retorno Seguro travel permits and 2 people were denied this week.

The denials were due to inane differences in some documents and a maiden name being on another document of a lady.

Both Zapopan and Guadalajara today, changed their rules. We are trying to roll with the punches. I did ask for a hearing with the guy in the legal department in Guadalajara today and we also did the same in Zapopan in the morning.

Zapopan wants original documents but I reminded them that they must accept notary certified copies and they conceded but now people living in Joco and Tuxcueca will pay a bit extra as we do not want to be carrying originals around for a few days so we will charge 250 pesos extra which will be paid to the notary to make certified copies.

Zapopan wants to inspect each vehicle. Guadalajara at first didn't then said they did then said they would send someone to Chapala but today told us that while they have vehicles, the government will not pay for the gasoline. Now they will do spot checks requiring vehicles to be presented on a random basis.

Guadalajara also really wants to check documents to see if they have jurisdiction to give the permit, if not they will reject it, while it seems each office may be hesitant to want to take on extra work, the rejection is formal and 2 pages long and requires reviewing the documents, the retorno permission is 3 pages long.

If people are rejected due to the local office declining jurisdiction to do the permission, people will have to do the permissions through the office in Mexico City and this will create planning problems as you will submit papers and they will return them to you within a few days but the mail will take 2 to 3 weeks to get here so one day the doorbell rings and then your 5 days starts.

Both offices are now asking for extra sets of documents, web page says 3 sets, they told us 2 and we would make 3 so SAT had copy, us and client, now SAT wants 2 sets.

Things change weekly. It is just like immigration with abrupt changes although we hope to see some method to this madness and see patterns. Please be patient as it will be dicey the next few weeks as we learn what they want and they figure out their end.

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I know some may not want to take the chance but as a Permanent Resident with a foreign plated car who just drove to Laredo, as I posted, I went past 2 military and 3 Federales check points. Once I showed my PR visa. No windshield stick is on car as windshield was just replaced and it is in glove compartment affixed to a piece of the old windshield. It was never an issue.

Personally, I would not bother going through so much hassle. It seems the one's most concerned are expats and not the military or police. People need to remember there are likely hundreds of thousands of cars referred to as "chocolates" with US plates, no car permit, driven by Mexicans who obviously could care less.

The most I would have is a letter in Spanish saying going to border to sell car.

We worry too much, including me. Time for a deep breath and enjoy why we are here.

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The question is would some risk impoundment versus paying $1,000 to $2,200 pesos for a guarantee that they will have no trouble. If a car is impounded the cost to get it out will be thousands of pesos and lots of time, that is the reality I am dealing with for some clients right now.

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Spencer, is the issue with your clients in driving to border with a foreign plated car and a PR visa or is it associated with the illegal nationalizing?

In my 5 years here I have never had to show car permit nor do I know anyone who has.

I realize always a risk but one I think as noted above most would chance. In my trip to Laredo and back clearly, there was no interest in car permit etc even the one time I showed my PR visa and no car permit affixed to windshield.

I even drove Celaya two times to Aduana to get a Returno Seguro but if had to do it again would not. We all have varying degrees of rick aversion.

Most likely through contacts and by paying 20,000 pesos in a week we will have plates and Tarjeta de Circulacion (registration) from a small town in the state of Mexico. Later the Pedimento will follow allowing car to have local SMA plates and be sold. The car will be totally legal.

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The only time I've ever had to show a car permit is either at KM19 when entering, or one time during the PanAm games at one of those temporary Federale checkpoints on Chapala highway. I've never been asked for it on the way out, even at that large permanent military checkpoint north of Ciudad Victoria.

It only takes once, however, if your TIP has expired and Spencer is right to warn everyone that the consequences could be a real pain in the butt.

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It is the RP issue. There is a system to check permits and those under the new deposit system are most at risk as no notifiaction and they cancel the permit, there is already an import permit search engine although not working could be soon.

Your way to get plates could be an issue in the future if they check and see you never got a pedimento and therefore car is contraband. No problem if you never change states but if you sell to someone and they try to change plates and get arrested and car impounded, they will come looking for you.

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The only time I've ever had to show a car permit is either at KM19 when entering, or one time during the PanAm games at one of those temporary Federale checkpoints on Chapala highway. I've never been asked for it on the way out, even at that large permanent military checkpoint north of Ciudad Victoria.

I have traveled a good bit in Mexico by car over the last 10 years. Although I have been through the 'normal' military stops et al, I don't recall ever being asked for any papers either... visa, passport nor TIP.

However I just heard from an acquaintance who, last week, drove from Ajijic to the border (Reynosa, through Monterrey). He had a Retorno Seguro for the vehicle. He was stopped, and asked for papers, in Guad., the bypass of Lagos, at the normal Federal stop north of Matehuala and just inside the Periferico at Monterrey.

No one in the first 3 stops questioned the Retorno Seguro after looking at his papers. But the Federal cop in Monterrey did question it and just wasn't going to believe that it meant anything. The owner, after 20 minutes of discussion, finally got the cop to call his jefe to ask about the Retorno Seguro paperwork. The jefe knew about it and then the cop 'apologized' and let him continue.

So if this trip is any indication, maybe there is a heightened awareness and checking of paperwork. Or maybe this trip was just a fluke or bad karma!

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I am one of the unfortunate with a "J" car. I accept that it will need to be taken out of the country. I have one question. I cannot seem to find the answer. I will need a retorno Seguro to get it to the border, and I believe I will have 5 days to get it there Does that 5 days start when I become permanente or when I get my Retorno Seguro. For example. On getting my permanente could I park my vehicle (off road) take a deep breath and work out details at my leisure ?

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I am one of the unfortunate with a "J" car. I accept that it will need to be taken out of the country. I have one question. I cannot seem to find the answer. I will need a retorno Seguro to get it to the border, and I believe I will have 5 days to get it there Does that 5 days start when I become permanente or when I get my Retorno Seguro. For example. On getting my permanente could I park my vehicle (off road) take a deep breath and work out details at my leisure ?

So.....

The 5 days starts the business day AFTER you receive your Retorno Seguro, you must apply for it and you just don't get it automatically. Your car is irrgaelar or illegal in Mexico when your import permit expires or any subsequent FM2 inmigrante rentista or FM3 no inmigrante immigration cards expire EXCEPT if you paid a deposit and didn't notify aduana of a new immigration card then they have already canceled your permit but this is hard to check by the police.

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So, had another Retorno Seguro rejected today. 2 wasted trips to Guadalajara. Why? Oh the vehicle owner is Canadian and we didn't present the title or factura. WRONG, Canadians do not have facturas to prove ownership like Mexico nor these pretty title documents like the US, they only have an insurance statement if from BC or a registration if from other provinces. So I asked for a hearing and the head guy agrees BUT we need to get a letter from the Canadian Consulate in Mexico stating that Canada doesn't issue titles and these aforementioned documents act as the title, even if expired and that the consulate doesn't renew vehicle docs.

It is a hassle but we are paving the way and teaching the Mexican authorities about Canadian documents to prevent any future issues for all Canadians whether we handle their case or someone else does.

I will post what happens but if the consulate is reluctant to issue a general letter explaining things I may need all of you to contact them so that Canadians will not have their requests rejected and be trapped in Mexico with their vehicles. My girlfriend is an attorney for the administrator of the World Trade Center towers and tomorrow morning she will present a written request to the consulate as it is in the towers (I just finished the request and hope to get a proper response soon) and then hopefully I will have it by lunch time to present to the SAT office.

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Spencer I got a Returno Seguro in Celaya a week ago and they accepted the Ontario Canada registration. I drove to texas and did not turn it in nor car permit and drove back. Hope this helps.Thanks for all you do.

Here are Sonia's notes:

There is no fee but it usually means 2 trips to SAT in Celaya. One day to apply and next day pick it up. Several documents are required to complete the process... copies and originals of:
1. passport,
2. utility bill or bank statement showing address;
3. driver's license
4. visa
5. car title
6. car permit
7. receipt when you paid for the car permit
8. Banjercito Recibo Bancario de Pago de Contribuciones
9. license plate number on a separate piece of paper.

SAT phone: 461-618-5168

Lic. Susana Razo

The Mexican government tolerates hundreds of thousands of illegal "chocolates" driven by Mexicans yet when expats try to be totally legal they throw road blocks. I also understand mid-April the two main auto dealer associations met with the government and suspect a topic was to put screws to expats with foreign plated cars. At this point I will do whatever it takes to nationalize my 2008 car and have started the process without leaving town.

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Each office has different guidelines and this one for Guadalajara isn't familiar with Canadian docs, the office in Zapopan is and we have been successful in obtaining retorno seguro permissions there although they keep changing what they want there and at the end the person needs to bring their vehicle in for inspection.

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No inspection in Celaya. No one looked at the car.

WE, my wife and I believe Aduana has a hate on for expats and / or totally incompetent.

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Each office has their internal rules

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So, had another Retorno Seguro rejected today. 2 wasted trips to Guadalajara. Why? Oh the vehicle owner is Canadian and we didn't present the title or factura. WRONG, Canadians do not have facturas to prove ownership like Mexico nor these pretty title documents like the US, they only have an insurance statement if from BC or a registration if from other provinces. So I asked for a hearing and the head guy agrees BUT we need to get a letter from the Canadian Consulate in Mexico stating that Canada doesn't issue titles and these aforementioned documents act as the title, even if expired and that the consulate doesn't renew vehicle docs.

It is a hassle but we are paving the way and teaching the Mexican authorities about Canadian documents to prevent any future issues for all Canadians whether we handle their case or someone else does.

I will post what happens but if the consulate is reluctant to issue a general letter explaining things I may need all of you to contact them so that Canadians will not have their requests rejected and be trapped in Mexico with their vehicles. My girlfriend is an attorney for the administrator of the World Trade Center towers and tomorrow morning she will present a written request to the consulate as it is in the towers (I just finished the request and hope to get a proper response soon) and then hopefully I will have it by lunch time to present to the SAT office.

This just totally sucks. I will write to my Consulate tomorrow. I also think this is a good story for the Canadian press.

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So, had another Retorno Seguro rejected today. 2 wasted trips to Guadalajara. Why? Oh the vehicle owner is Canadian and we didn't present the title or factura. WRONG, Canadians do not have facturas to prove ownership like Mexico nor these pretty title documents like the US, they only have an insurance statement if from BC or a registration if from other provinces. So I asked for a hearing and the head guy agrees BUT we need to get a letter from the Canadian Consulate in Mexico stating that Canada doesn't issue titles and these aforementioned documents act as the title, even if expired and that the consulate doesn't renew vehicle docs.

It is a hassle but we are paving the way and teaching the Mexican authorities about Canadian documents to prevent any future issues for all Canadians whether we handle their case or someone else does.

I will post what happens but if the consulate is reluctant to issue a general letter explaining things I may need all of you to contact them so that Canadians will not have their requests rejected and be trapped in Mexico with their vehicles. My girlfriend is an attorney for the administrator of the World Trade Center towers and tomorrow morning she will present a written request to the consulate as it is in the towers (I just finished the request and hope to get a proper response soon) and then hopefully I will have it by lunch time to present to the SAT office.

The Canadian Consulate cannot letters indicating that Canada does not issue titles for vehicles as vehicle registration is done at the provincial level in Canada. However, they are aware of the issue. Canadians will need to ask their insurance company or provincial authority for a letter, similar to the one attached, and then they should have it translated to Spanish and brought to the Canadian Consulate to be notarized. Best to call the Consulate directly for the list of translators. I can't seem to the post the example of the letter on this web board, but if you email the consulate they can send you one as they did to me.

They also indicated that the Canadian Embassy has been meeting with Mexican authorities regarding all the problems and complaints they have received from Canadians. They ask that Canadians send them accounts of problems and this actually assists them in their discussions their counterparts. You can email to gjara@international.gc.ca and reference "vehicle importation complaint" in the subject heading.

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My girlfriend and I are official state court translators. We need the consulate to respond to our letter as requiring separate letters with notarization will take weeks and cost some serious $$$ leaving Canadians trapped in Mexico while the easy solution is to have them write a letter, here is the request we made this morning

CONSULADO DE CANADA EN LA CIUDAD

DE GUADALAJARA, JALISCO

MEXICO

Asunto: Se solicita información sobre

los documentos que avalan la propiedad

y legal tenencia de vehículos en Canadá.

Guadalajara, Jalisco a 29 de mayo de 2013

Ana Cecilia Villanueva Salas, mexicana, mayor de edad, profesionista, con domicilio en la calle Pablo Neruda #3055, Int. 302, colonia Providencia en la ciudad y municipio de Guadalajara, Jalisco, comparezco ante ese H. Consulado de Canadá en esta ciudad de Guadalajara para solicitar se informe a la que suscribe sobre los documentos que se expiden para acreditar la propiedad respecto de los vehículos adquiridos en ese país, así como también sobre la constancia que la autoridad competente emite para que dichos vehículos puedan circular de manera legal dentro de su territorio.

Esta solicitud se presenta toda vez que los nacionales del vecino país de Canadá quienes actualmente residen en México nos piden hacer solicitudes ante el Servicio de Administración Tributaria (SAT), Administración Local Jurídica, Guadalajara Sur ubicada en Avenida de las Américas #833, Colonia Jesús García, Guadalajara, Jalisco 44656 para tramitar el trámite de Retorno Seguro debido a encontrar su vehículo en forma irregular en el país de México a consecuencia de los cambios en su situación migratoria. La citada autoridad hacendaria ha rechazado dichas solicitudes bajo la premisa de que los documentos que se presentan no avalan la propiedad de los mismos, argumentando que se debe presentar un titulo de propiedad como en los estados Unidos de Norteamérica, desconociendo el sistema en Canadá bajo el cual se emite un documento según la provincia correspondiente que consiste en el seguro vehicular o en su tarjeta de circulación, lo que también acredita la propiedad aun y cuando esté vencido.

Adjunto para tales efectos copias simples de los documentos que se han acompañado a las solicitudes anteriormente citadas con la finalidad de corroborar que la información que se ha presentado es la correcta y que la misma demuestra en amplios términos que el propietario del vehículo es el tenedor de dichos documentos y que el consulado de Canadá en esta ciudad no realiza trámite vehicular alguno, por lo que los trámites respecto de los vehículos matriculados en Canadá se deben realizar llevando cada vehículo a ese país para realizar dicho trámite.


Atentamente,

Ana Cecilia Villanueva Salas

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The Canadian consulate is awesome and is super attentive and has given us a response and offered to speak to the Mexican tax office. It makes me wish I was Canadian!

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The Canadian consulate is awesome and is super attentive and has given us a response and offered to speak to the Mexican tax office. It makes me wish I was Canadian!

IMHO you have the qualifications to be a Canadian. You have been accepted into the realm and from now on you ARE Canadian!!

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I have been informed that I need to go to Guadalajara on Wednesday to get fongerprinted for my permanente. I gather that I will receive my card in 3 weeks .

I am Canadian and have a Canadian plated J car, and reading the last few posts and with all the previous problems I have made the decision to drive the car up to Canada in the next three weeks and fly back. The only other option is to give the car (a minivan) to a charity. Somewhere I have read that this is a possibility if done before the car becomes illegal. It makes financial sense to me to give the vehicle to someone . It is in good condition but probably worth no more than $2000 or so to a dealer up there for cash. By the time I have paid for return flights, hotels, gas , taken the kids out to dinner done all the necessary visiting, (maybe have a night in Vegas on the way up). I would be losing money. Night in Vegas would have to go.!!! If I gave the car away I would have no car but no expenses either.

I somewhere read that Spencer said that the donation thing had not been thrown out of the window. Just wondered if anyone knew for sure.


Sorry to be a pain , but second question The authorities have my FM2 . I do have a copy of a letter telling whoever is interested that they have it. Would I need to worry about getting back into Mexico at the airport ? I assume that this is not the first time this has happened
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