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Chamber of Commerce have a new deal with Inmigration Service


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It is nice to receive some positive support. Thought the naysayers might like to read this:

Hi Robert,
I want to thank you for taking the time to answer my email. My wife and I are at Manzanillo until May 25th. I would have liked to attended today's meeting and I am very thankful for the Invitation. By the way, I think having people send in their questions and being invited by Invitation is one of the BEST ideas ever. I have been to enough meetings, where the disruptions and same questions being asked and anwsered, so many times it became confusing to eveyone. GREAT IDEA!!!!!!
I also want to say THANK YOU, for doing what you can, to help with more information. We can't even imagine, the time you must be putting in for trying to achive this task.
Just want you to know that Vicki and I really appreciate what you are doing.
We can apply for our new IMN last part of May, so all we can do is hope there will be some changes by then, or we will just have to go Temporal.
Have a great meeting.
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We moved to Chapala under one set of laws and rules.Then, things began to change as we approached the end of our first 5 years.We discussed our situation with INM and they recommended that we remain FN3 forever.Then, things changed again and INM made an error on our renewal, forcing us to pay again and change status.Now, we are No-Inmigrante and will be forced to become Permanente in the near future.That will force us to dispose of our US plated Japanese vehicle; not the deal when we moved here!We also have a home that we thought would be our home forever.We also have a second vehicle, registered in Jalisco.Since the government has offered no grandfathering, so that we can live under the laws and rules that existed when we moved here, we think it may be time to leave as soon as we can sell our home and Jalisco car. We do not want to, but we feel betrayed. Departure will destroy our lives, as it probably has for others already, with more to come. We are sad, frustrated, angry and can no longer recommend Mexico to retirees or even tourists.These meetings will answer the questions and aleviate confusion, but they will not fix the damage done.

RV speaks for us also. Thank you, I can not express it as well as you did.

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We moved to Chapala under one set of laws and rules.

Then, things began to change as we approached the end of our first 5 years.

We discussed our situation with INM and they recommended that we remain FN3 forever.

Then, things changed again and INM made an error on our renewal, forcing us to pay again and change status.

Now, we are No-Inmigrante and will be forced to become Permanente in the near future.

That will force us to dispose of our US plated Japanese vehicle; not the deal when we moved here!

We also have a home that we thought would be our home forever.

We also have a second vehicle, registered in Jalisco.

Since the government has offered no grandfathering, so that we can live under the laws and rules that existed when we moved here, we think it may be time to leave as soon as we can sell our home and Jalisco car. We do not want to, but we feel betrayed. Departure will destroy our lives, as it probably has for others already, with more to come. We are sad, frustrated, angry and can no longer recommend Mexico to retirees or even tourists.

These meetings will answer the questions and aleviate confusion, but they will not fix the damage done.

Wow, never thought I'd read this from RV. Very well put. Frankly, if we didn't own a home, we'd say the hell with it too.

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RV, I've watched you for over 6 years and you've gone from being (forgive me) an almost blind zealot for Mexico to this and it's sad, but a huge red flag and indicator, I think, of what a lot of people are feeling, if not saying out loud. Considerable damage has been done, and is being done daily, and attempts to salve the open wounds with what is essentially PR won't fix the base problems. In Sept when I come due I'm returning NOB for a 1 year Temporal and then will leave MX the following year when it expires.

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I emailed the poster to offer the services of our firm to explain to them the issues as we see them as well as what the real issues are as well as solutions. We deal with hundreds of clients and have seen many different situations and have real life experience in dealings with foreigners in many areas as well as are bilingual and have a team of 5 attorneys. Many of these meetings are not fruitful as they pull someone from an office and try to get answers where they may not exist or they do not frame the issues properly. Many foreigners get confused and sidetracked and a little information can be misinterpreted.

I hope they contact my office and speak with Luis and / or Denise as both of them deal daily with immigration, forms and issues and both are fluent in Spanish so they can properly explain to the poster in Spanish the issues and potential remedies.

I think the Chamber of Commerce here and in other locations will have more pull with INM and Aduana in getting rules changed. When government agencies understand that their actions are affecting Mexicans, their incomes and standard of living, the agencies will be more interested in changing the rules. If the rules are just ticking off some foreigners they don't care but they will care when they know how many billions of pesos are lost in the local economies because of the rules.

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Thanks for your interest in helping, I want to suggest a couple of things. First, make it possible for

people who are here half the year on tourist visas to get a Mexican drivers license. second,

replace the people in the drivers license office in Chapala with honest employees who do not

demand mordidas. best of luck with your efforts!

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I think the Chamber of Commerce here and in other locations will have more pull with INM and Aduana in getting rules changed. When government agencies understand that their actions are affecting Mexicans, their incomes and standard of living, the agencies will be more interested in changing the rules. If the rules are just ticking off some foreigners they don't care but they will care when they know how many billions of pesos are lost in the local economies because of the rules.

Sorry but I think that's wishful thinking and it's not something many of us feel comfortable waiting for.

By the time they do make changes...IF THEY MAKE THEM AT ALL, the damage will be done and it will take them years to regain any kind of trust with expats and the loss of future retirees to Mexico will be enormous.

Yes, Mexicans will lose jobs and income and that's the sad part. We can move elsewhere, and still survive, but they are stuck here.

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What car issues? I can see asking for a grace period for the people who were taken by surprise by the rules on the change of status but otherwise the rule has always been that Permanent residents were not allowed to have or drive a foreign plated car. There is nothing new there and I do not think the rule is going to change for a few people being inconvenienced..

BMH You have shown great disdain on two different boards for those who now have to sell their cars after changing their status to the new permanente.

You and I have no dog in this fight as we are both nationalized citizens who knew going in we would have to either sell or nationalize our cars. We knew the rules and were able to make educated decisions.

Unfortunately with the new laws in place albeit with a constantly changing scenario, people who would have stayed FM3 or temporado were forced into permanente or face the necessity of leaving the country to reapply for entrance with unreachable income amounts required. Many people have lived here comfortably with far less than the income now required and have contributed mightily to the care and well being of the nationals who need help. Because the laws were new no one knew where Hacienda and adouna would come down on the car issue. People did not have the information to make an educated decision as we did.

You comfortably sit in two houses you own, travel internationally when you choose and have lost touch with the reality of the life most people here live.

Your opinion is unfeeling and unhelpful.

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There will not be changes because a few people complain, the vast majority of foreigners in the rest of the country are finding out about the rules and trying to comply. There is a particularly negative tune to this forum which is pretty typical of the entitled attitude of some of the people who live at Lakeside.

So you lived here for years did not commit to be a permanent resident did not assimilate and now you are betrayed. Please give us a break. Mexico owes you nothing, you enjoyed the years you had here , comply and continue to enjoy Mexico or leave but all negative attitude is pretty tiring.

Most of us are retirees do not have that long on this earth , we are on our way out anyways, a few people leaving sooner will not be the end of the world for Mexico, other people will come under different terms and we all will be forgotten pretty quickly,

Do not poison your mind and the rest of your life with all that rancoeur see if you can stay if it is what you want to do and if you cannot move on.

The Chamber of commerce say they want to help with immigration see what they can do with immigration.

The car deal is Aduana nothing to do with immigration or the Chamber of commerce so move on to the next step and see if someone can help with Aduana.

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A Chamber of Commerce is an organization run by, and paid for, the member businesses.

They are NOT consumer advocates. Their sole purpose is to promote the member businesses,

in order to maximize the amount of money consumers spend with those businesses.

Their interest in this topic is only that ex-pat $ are leaving the area, and/or that increases in

$ spent on public/goverment fees/taxes, etc. detracts from the $ available to spend at member businesses.

To understand how much influence they might have on external (government) organizations,

where they have no authority, first look at how effective they have been managing complaints against

member businesses within their own organization, where they seemingly should have some authority.

The Propane Pirates, assumedly Chamber of Commerce members, are allowed to operate

with impunity. Posters are afraid to post names for fear of retribution.Real estate developers take deposits,

don't perform agreed upon work, and leave the ex-pats high-and-dry with no viable remediation.

Unscrupulous business practices are equally responsible for negative experiences which influence

a decision to relocate to, or remain in, Mexico. Maybe the Chamber of Commerce should apply

their available resources to cleaning their own house before volunteering to help fix the government.

How about a Better Business Bureau type of organization where consumers can lodge

complaints and expect some type of response, without fear of being sued/assaulted or otherwise

targeted for retribution.

The Mexican saying "Quien paga, manda" (NOB equivalent "Who has the gold, makes the rules"

is especially true for the Chamber of Commerce, where business owner-member interests

are the only issues that matter.

Personally, in addition to my immigration/customs issues, I am also going to include issues

related to the private sector in my e-mails to chapala@camaradecomerciogdl.mx, as I am tired

of feeling like I am being screwed every time I open my wallet.

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Maybe I'm not clear on the issues, but some people seem confused about all these changes.

One poster seemed to think that he could spend all the time he wanted to out of the country on an FM3, but could not if he went permanente. I understand it's just the opposite, and there were time limits on the FM3, but would not be on Permanente.

Another poster feels he is being "forced" out of Mexico by the new rules. How is that? I understand that if you have a certain number of years on your FM2 or possibly combined with FM3 if continuous renewal, you can go Permanente without financials; the only disadvantage being that you must dispose of your foreign plated vehicle. I would think that the expense of moving somewhere else and getting established would be much greater than the cost of a car.

Please correct me if I'm wrong on these matters.

Generally speaking.........when we moved to Mexico, nobody promised us that the rules would never change, just as the U.S. government changes the tax and other rules whenever they wish, so we don't expect permanent conditions or iron clad promises.

We like it here, so we're staying, and we will be adjusting where we must.

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There will not be changes because a few people complain, the vast majority of foreigners in the rest of the country are finding out about the rules and trying to comply. There is a particularly negative tune to this forum which is pretty typical of the entitled attitude of some of the people who live at Lakeside.

So you lived here for years did not commit to be a permanent resident did not assimilate and now you are betrayed. Please give us a break. Mexico owes you nothing, you enjoyed the years you had here , comply and continue to enjoy Mexico or leave but all negative attitude is pretty tiring.

Most of us are retirees do not have that long on this earth , we are on our way out anyways, a few people leaving sooner will not be the end of the world for Mexico, other people will come under different terms and we all will be forgotten pretty quickly,

Do not poison your mind and the rest of your life with all that rancoeur see if you can stay if it is what you want to do and if you cannot move on.

The Chamber of commerce say they want to help with immigration see what they can do with immigration.

The car deal is Aduana nothing to do with immigration or the Chamber of commerce so move on to the next step and see if someone can help with Aduana.

It is always so lovely the way some people turn on their own. The Nazis did studies on it. You would find them interesting.

The Chamber of Commerce is interested because it is already affecting its members. Many people who might have moved to Mexico under the old rules won't now which affects the foreign population. Talk to restaurant owners and they will tell you they are worried because their businesses are off. The foreigners here are older. They die off or they move back home and they aren't being replaced with new foreigners.

This isn't anyone feeling entitled. This is an economic decision for the Chamber and its members.

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The issue here is grandfathering the ex pats who abided by all the rules and regulations when they first entered the country and chose to make it their home. This is not happening. I will likely muddle through the changes for now, however a very bad precedent has taken place. What is going to change next year or the year after? You have to be able to have some trust in the country you live and invest in.

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That's what people are upset about. This isn't a younger, working population who can make very many changes in their lifestyles. They can't produce more income for nationalizing or buying new vehicles. In the 7-8 years I've been here I've read about rules changing for homeowners. I remember that someone with an FM3 type "visa" could sell his property and not pay capital gains. Then the homeowner needs an FM2 or inimgrado. If there is rhyme and reason to the rule changes other than greed, we could understand some of the changes but there isn't.


You are exactly right that most of us worry about what other changes will be coming and we will be older when it happens than now. There isn't a reason to keep changing the rules other than they can change them. Most of us came from countries that do not change laws and rules without clear and concise reasons, so no, we do not understand nor appreciate the rug being yanked out from under us every 4-5 years.
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"It is always so lovely the way some people turn on their own. The Nazis did studies on it. You would find them interesting." (Joco)

Where is that coming from? I didn't know we expats were in any way a homogeneous group, and I strongly disagree that we ever were. The only thing we have in common is that we moved here from somewhere else, usually with vastly different assumptions, means and intentions.

There are those who came here many years ago, got their FM3's and kept one foot in Mexico and the other in the USA. They didn't make Mexico their permanent home, never went forward to get an FM2 or further on the path to remain here, kept their US cars and contributed nothing in terms of license fees in Mexico; in fact, solved their problem by going the South Dakota route. Doesn't sound like much commitment to me.

Others did make this their home by behaving differently; got their FM2's when the time came; bought Mexican cars and paid their dues. They will be grandfathered in, and justly so.

I see this as a case of many people wanting to have it both ways. That usually doesn't work and it's not working now.

I have my doubts about the Chamber of Commerce's being helpful on this. People seem to go to these seminars in the hope that they'll get a more likable answer to their various dilemmas. I wonder why they won't allow any Facilitators in to the meetings.

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I wonder how many of the righteous here who bought Mexican cars did so because they needed to get a new car at the time and it made good sense to get one here? Some of you don't seems to understand the difference between that, which is what most long time residents would do for the simple reason if no other, to reduce the hassle and extortion from the transitos and cops?

Versus I wonder how many of you had to do it on extremely short notice and had to lose a lot of money doing so.

Don't confuse good luck with good management. Going Mexican when you have to change cars anyway makes sense for those who expect to remain permanently. Going Mexican overnight at substantial financial loss after one rule change after another and in the middle of mass confusion, under threat of confiscation, ain't the same thing, folks.

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I'm a little lost in this conversation. I'm a long term visitor to MX, a guest in their country and I try to act that way.

I appreciate that the Chamber is trying to help but they seem to be late to the game. This actually started Nov 12, 2012. We are 6 months in and almost all the kinks have been worked out. Any decent facilitator can sort thru any situation and advise the options.

The immigration rules seem to be set and now the problem is autos.

All I ever ask of the world is a complete set of the rules. If I can get those, I can decide what to do and we are severely lacking in that regard in MX.

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BMH, wow?

Gringal, really, you want to sit down at an "all" stakes poker game where the rules are posted that you know and put you total stakes on the table and then hear someone yell - 'OOPS, NEW RULES"? forgive me, but that qualifies as insanity.

And, jrm, it's not only the cars, I am at the end of my fm3 and I have two choices, be screwed by the nationalizers when going PR or I can leave and come back as TR - I chose the latter. The point being that before, I could chose (like RV), to remain FM3/Temporal by simply going in and reapplying and giving them another $125 (which is now $300) for another year. So, it's not only the car, but all that goes with it. And now, I can expect to be stopped MANY more times because I have NOB plates (yes, the other day in front of WalMart) although that's an annoyance and stupid, it's not a deal breaker.

I know a lady who just came down and was told NOB she could get a 4 year Temporal - NOT - Chapala said only 1 year, so they can milk her $300 a year for 4 years rather than allowing a $700+ cost for 4 years. And, you want me to roll over so you can scratch my tummy? - forgive me, but I see the glint of a blade in your hand ready to carve out a(nother) pound of flesh.

PS: just watched the video posted and an old adage comes to mind: "Money talks and fools walk" When they're ready to talk about keeping my $3K/month in the pipeline they'll need more than a flashy video, my front door is open and waiting, I'm sure the folks I employ will be appreciative.

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That poker game reference is not only a bad analogy, it's also insulting. I'm not crazy, and I don't gamble. I plan, and allow for the unexpected.

So.......My husband and I read the existing rules long before moving. We had every intention of moving permanently, and didn't arrive with 50 cents without realizing that it could easily cost a dollar before long. Change is normal. Permanence is not. If anyone has lived more than forty years, they should have realized that, long ago. Inflation proves it. The house you could have bought for 40K in 1970 turned into 400K by 2000. Now it would have reversed, but never back to that 20K.

Knowing this, we followed the path of going toward becoming permanent residents, followed the FM3 to FM2 and now to Permanente, knowing well that under the old Immigrado rules, our faithful US plated pickup would have to go. It was good for many a long mile at the time and in great shape, so it's not like we wanted to get rid of it. We had the chance to sell it to a close relative who was coming down to visit, so we did, at a decent price. Otherwise, we would have kept it until the time to go Immigrado came. Then we would have sold it over the border, took our losses and bought a Mexican car. I don't have a love affair with my cars. They're just machines.

There is a profound difference between gambling and being prepared for change. If you don't know the difference and live like you're playing poker, you can join chorus of expats who are now complaining to the tune of "But mom, you PROMISED".

Followed by stamping of feet and yelling "It's not FAIR" "You're MEAN". Get over it. It is what it is. Leave, but you will probably regret it since there's no perfect place in this world and moving is expensive.

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You really don't get it that you were a lot luckier than smart, do you. Had a relative coming down to sell the car to, got a good price and didn't even have to cart it to the border. Obviously a pretty old vehicle at that. You could time when you switched to Immigrado instead of having it dumped on you with a few months notice.

You seem to miss the fact that timing worked for you but those who were not so far along in the cycle, but working the same general idea, have been blindsided.

Thanks for proving my point. You got lucky and you made a few right calls. You didn't have to take a bath on a much newer vehicle because of it. Now try not to be so smug about it.

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Trust me, when playing poker with the Mexican government, you DO NOT hold a winning hand no matter what the cards are, jokers are wild. And, as MC said, you broke lucky, so you rolled the dice and it paid out, I'm glad for you, but don't even dream that is the case for the vast majority of folks living here in good faith.

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That poker game reference is not only a bad analogy, it's also insulting. I'm not crazy, and I don't gamble. I plan, and allow for the unexpected.

So.......My husband and I read the existing rules long before moving. We had every intention of moving permanently, and didn't arrive with 50 cents without realizing that it could easily cost a dollar before long. Change is normal. Permanence is not. If anyone has lived more than forty years, they should have realized that, long ago. Inflation proves it. The house you could have bought for 40K in 1970 turned into 400K by 2000. Now it would have reversed, but never back to that 20K.

Knowing this, we followed the path of going toward becoming permanent residents, followed the FM3 to FM2 and now to Permanente, knowing well that under the old Immigrado rules, our faithful US plated pickup would have to go. It was good for many a long mile at the time and in great shape, so it's not like we wanted to get rid of it. We had the chance to sell it to a close relative who was coming down to visit, so we did, at a decent price. Otherwise, we would have kept it until the time to go Immigrado came. Then we would have sold it over the border, took our losses and bought a Mexican car. I don't have a love affair with my cars. They're just machines.

There is a profound difference between gambling and being prepared for change. If you don't know the difference and live like you're playing poker, you can join chorus of expats who are now complaining to the tune of "But mom, you PROMISED".

Followed by stamping of feet and yelling "It's not FAIR" "You're MEAN". Get over it. It is what it is. Leave, but you will probably regret it since there's no perfect place in this world and moving is expensive.

It is so true!! How comforting to read your post. It feels so good to see that some do understand the name of the game.

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