The new one Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 A gardener here in Chapala has been working with me since 2009, three days a week I know that if I need to fire him, I have to fix him with severance pay, plus 20 working days, plus vacations, (every year I gave him aguinaldo). The question is: I am under medical treatment that implies wage for the specialist, medication, lab tests, I do not have money to pay for a gardener anymore, of course I can not pay a large sum for a termination pay, so...what is going to happen with me....do I have to go to jail? I am trying with ANY success to sell or rent my home to get money, but this is impossible in the current times. Yes, I want to pay him, but at the moment I can not ! Please, any suggestions are welcome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mainecoons Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Have you tried negotiating with him? Why don't you contact Spencer and see if he can help you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JayBearII Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Well, I can't give legal advice, but if I were in this position, I would give the gardener as much warning as possible, try to help him get another job by alerting friends (and posting on this board and the LCS board) and I would pay him for current work and give him something, whatever pesos you can afford, and simply tell him that you are sick, don't have any more money, and that you wish it could be more, and give him a tearful handshake and wish him well. If you can't afford any pesos, perhaps you could give him something of value from your house instead. I don't think anything is going to happen to you unless your gardener goes to the authorities, and if he understands this is all you can afford, hopefully he will understanding and not make trouble for you. Mexicans get ill, too, so I think your gardener will be aware of what that can mean financially, and will be sympathetic if he is a nice guy. All best wishes to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moonhill Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ditto on my not giving legal advice, but we once used a Mexican terminado form which is available on the internet. We had used a maid very sporadically and wanted to give her something even though we probably weren't required to do so. The form states how much you are giving them in severence, and they have to sign and agree to accept that amount as final compensation. If they feel it is short of what they should receive, they can refuse the money, refuse to sign it, and contact a labor rep for help. If they agree to what it says and take the money, they shouldn't be able to come back for more later. Again, not legal advice but a possibility to look into to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad_Max Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 legally he is your employee until he is paid severance in full - that is, if you dismiss him and don't pay him severance, he may still be considered your employee and due weekly wages until full severance is paid. You need legal advice not board advice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
privado Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 So Sorry for your problem- This board is composed of the Gringos who operate under the Gringo system - which is not the Mexican way- Gringos pay or get a lawyer etc- etc and pay-Try not to listen to every story that passes as valid around the lake Your situation sounds dire- Remember- HE IS NOT A FULL TIME EMPLOYEE - he is a part time Temporary worker.Try to help him find other work to replace your part time work. and explain your problem and the fact that You don't have the Money any longer to pay him. Try to too handle this as a Mexican family would-An example- a Mexican friend recently terminated a maid who had worked for his family for 29 years- every day for half day- Reason - his mother needed a person who could do nursing care and monitor medications-He hired such a person in addition to the daily maid, finally after a year-- He talked to the maid- told her that they could no longer afford both- gave her a months notice and then a couple of thousand pesos and a standing invitation to visit at any time- etc etc She understood y Adios with no problems. It happens every day here when family situations change- Good Luck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valbogyo Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 A gardener here in Chapala has been working with me since 2009, three days a week I know that if I need to fire him, I have to fix him with severance pay, plus 20 working days, plus vacations, (every year I gave him aguinaldo). The question is: I am under medical treatment that implies wage for the specialist, medication, lab tests, I do not have money to pay for a gardener anymore, of course I can not pay a large sum for a termination pay, so...what is going to happen with me....do I have to go to jail? I am trying with ANY success to sell or rent my home to get money, but this is impossible in the current times. Yes, I want to pay him, but I can not ! Please, any suggestions are welcome! Edit: I am editing this because I was too harsh, when I wrote my original reply. To the Original poster: I disagree with the person who says you have no obligation and I agree with the others that you do need legal advice, but you may not be able to afford a lawyer. I hope you can get an answer by a lawyer here. In my opinion, you are correct in that you have an obligation. I did consult a lawyer on what my obligations are towards my part time house keeper. According to her, I will have to pay severance if I let her go and I must pay all the annual compensation mentioned above. I assume its the same for gardners. The story of the Mexican family that turfed out a maid who worked for over twenty years with a few hundred dollars.....? I would give the maid money for a lawyer to sue them. These are real jobs. These people are working for you. Perhaps they have two or three employers, but they deserve to be protected. If you can not come up with any money now, make certain that the gardner is paid when you house eventually sells. PS. I do hope you feel better and take care of your health problems. You will feel better if you live up to your obligations eventually. I know you want to. You sound like a good person, who is under stress. If you tell him, even if it takes a long time, he will eventually get his money, that could help ease the situation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
privado Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 To the Original poster: I disagree with almost everyone here. You knew, I assume, when you hired the gardner for three days a week that there would be severance due when you terminate him. Your health problems are not his problem. Each one of us, who hires a domestic worker can put money way for severence so we are prepared for that day. There are labour laws and I think they need to be supported. The story of the Mexican family that turfed out a maid who worked for over twenty years with a few hundred dollars.....? I would give the maid money for a lawyer to sue them. These are real jobs. These people are working for you. Perhaps they have two or three employers, but they deserve to be protected. If you have integrety you will pay what you owe him, perhaps over time.... but do it. Sell something if you have to, but don't be a dead beat gringo. PS. I do hope you feel better and take care of your health problems. You will feel better if you live up to your obligations. I know you want to. You sound like a good person, who is under stress. You know what to do, even if its hard. Very Noble of you- But - to tell this person they have no Integrity is Shameful Your response is over the top and doesn''t even work for major employers in the US- if you are employed for 3 years as a PART TIME WORKER for 3 days a week for for total of 9 hours - You virtually have no rights if your job is eliminated and you are laid off- you probably will not even qualify for unemployment insurance in most instances because of your employment status as a Temporary Part time worker I've been told by a lawyer in Guadalajara, that is the case in Mexico too and is followed by major employers in Jalisco as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
valbogyo Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Very Noble of you- But - to tell this person they have no Integrity is Shameful Your response is over the top and doesn''t even work for major employers in the US- if you are employed for 3 years as a PART TIME WORKER for 3 days a week for for total of 9 hours - You virtually have no rights if your job is eliminated and you are laid off- you probably will not even qualify for unemployment insurance in most instances because of your employment status as a Temporary Part time worker I've been told by a lawyer in Guadalajara, that is the case in Mexico too and is followed by major employers in Jalisco as well. My reply was too harsh, I agree, and I edited it now because I do not want to upset the OP. My response was a reaction to the story of the mexican maid who was turfed out after 29 years. I did not say the person (original poster) did not have integrity. I said a person with integrity would live up to their obligation and I believe the original poster does want to do that, but needs to find a way how. I was not a lot of help there. I do not know about the lawyer you talked with. I consulted a lawyer regarding my obligations and I am following the rules she gave me. As others said, the OP needs to consult one herself to understand the possible outcome of not paying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cbviajero Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 The maid worked everyday for 29 years and they gave her a couple thousand pesos?That's unbelievably shameful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satnrose Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 I notice you mentioned you have a home you are trying to sell or rent, correct? The severance will be attached to your home when it sells. You can point this out to the gardener. There may be paperwork that terminates him, with the information he will be paid when house sells. This hopefully will stop the continued severance responsibly after his termination. If you rent, maybe you can agree on a payment schedule. Whatever, make sure it is all written. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thecorys Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 i PMd you Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennie Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 privado, its useless. i have been saying the same thing for many years on 3 different forums. then the expats reply w/all these laws in spanish. (always something from rollys websight etc). the story about the 29yr employee is typical for how mexicans do things. it may not be nice, & i would give much more. (a decent mexican would have a moral responsibility to give more, but not a legal one). BUT, w/expats, even an occassional employee gets big comp. they are scared of someone who even works 1 day! read the forums. there is a big difference between full time & part time help. i have had p/timers for many years, no problems @ all! its understood. (i have even read that expats give materity leave to maids who work 3 hrs a week! they give IMSS, yes for 3 hours a week, they give more than all of that. so now its commenplace). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The new one Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Just a note about part time workers...I know of a case where the gardener of 3 years (about 12 hours a week) was laid off, but was found work with neighbors and friends. Then he went to a labor person, said he had worked 42 hours a week for those 3 years, and the lady, even with a lawyer paid out over 10,000 USD. She told me that was with her lawyer, filing fees, multas, and the gardener. After that experience, she sold the house and returned to the stATES. Just be VERY careful. Yes, there have been a lot of similar cases, that is why I was worried about! One gardener told me that, one day, he came to some house to work, but the locks were changed, there were new people living there (a new owner) and nobody told him anything about the days he had been working there! nobody paid him. this is a real robbery! and the last owners were non-Mexicans. Anyway, Thanks to all of you friends, that offered opinion! I am making a list with all the ways I have for negotiation with this man!. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
privado Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Lets end the discussion about my friends maid of 29 years- The maid had worked there for the last year knowing that the time was coming and her employment would be ending- I too expressed dismay about what would happen to her as she was treated like family- turns out she had already secured another job and was working there in the afternoons for years- She knew the family could no longer afford to employ her- Know not how much severance or other things she received- She left happy and content- still comes to visit for birthdays, holidays etc- It's the Mexican Way !! According to sources I know personally both in business and law- and in my own experience as well as friends and acquaintances---the rumors and innuendos propagated on this forum regarding benefits to Temporary Part time workers just doesn't happen anywhere but Lakeside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
satnrose Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 Manzanillo, also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennie Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 "hookemhorns"- the case you mention: there was nothing in writing. it is ovious that the 2 lawyers worked this together w/a corrupt judge. gardener got like 100,000pesos? (10,000 usd). its a racket they do here, & a corrupt judge. this scam has been going on for ages, but never against mexicans. the lawyers keep most of the $$. (in this case the judge maybe got something too). i know all about this. "privado"- you are the only person besides me who understands this. the workers know right away who they can pull this with. i have been warned by many expats that someday this will catch up w/me, as i dont follow the law. but i follow mexican law not expat law. "the new one"- offer him what you can, get spencer to write it up, get on w/it. i would NOT mention selling your home, you may get into a very bad situation. that was bad advice, why open yourself up to future debt? the less you say the better off you are. dont worry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The new one Posted March 1, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 "the new one"- offer him what you can, get spencer to write it up, get on w/it. i would NOT mention selling your home, you may get into a very bad situation. that was bad advice, why open yourself up to future debt? the less you say the better off you are. dont worry! mmmmm, yes....you are right....Thanks. I will follow the other suggestions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgogirl Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 It really bothers me that as a person who lives and works abroad as a teacher, I certainly don't get the same treatment/benefit/consideration that mexican workers get, it seems to me. Oh yes, there are labor laws, so to speak, that say that the schools are supposed to give the teacherss IMSS, aguinaldos and severance pay. But usually they don't and if you push the issue, out the door you go. I have known mexican and extranjero teachers alike that HAVE found ways to sue schools and win big. Never was my style to strategize like that. But it just seems very strange to me that a gardener or maid can take the employer hostage for wages even if they swept your floor once a week. Of course I'm exaggerating... Someone said these are "real jobs." I had a real job in the states, eliminated by budget cuts, and had to fight like crazy to get my deserved unemploymnent comp. This was for fulltime permanent with benefits. The point I'm trying to make is that here in Mexico, laborers appear to have much more power over employers than an educated professional. Every businessman I've ever taught has said they'd be on the street with little to nothing if the employer cut them loose. And teachers are out the door without a peso, believe me. They have slick ways of cutting you out so they don't have to pay you. So it is hard to hear a gringo call another gringo "deadbeat" for having to let go of a laborer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bennie Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 virgogirl, the laborers dont have that much power, the expats gave it to them. this power is exclusivly used against the expats. there are TWO sets of laws. one for mexicans in mexico which is on the books, the other for expats who move to mexico (which an expat made up, & it gets bigger & bigger). when you say something enough times, people will believe it. NO, its not true if a worker rakes your lawn sometimes, you owe him the moon. i have had so many people rake, sweep, clean, come & go. work a few weeks or days or occasionly. never an issue. dont pay attention. it seems it is a certain type of person who falls victim to this. so, its become a business op in this retirement place. the lawyers get together & have a party. they prey on the american guilt. i am very careful who i hire, & never ever have anything in writing. your correct about teachers in mexico. my friend was let go by 2 private schools, as they cut the classes down. no comp, zero. she almost has a masters degree, speaks 2 languages. her father is a lawyer as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Happy Feet Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 Have you tried negotiating with him? Why don't you contact Spencer and see if he can help you. Why dont you tell the people the truth please Spencer? Part time workers of less than 9 hours per week have no right to compensation and the rest is negociable... .... end of story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iamsteve Posted March 2, 2013 Report Share Posted March 2, 2013 The new one, I've sent you a pm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
virgogirl Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Thank you Bennie for good , clear explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rony Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 On a sidenote.... I asked a street sweeper today, who works for the municipality and on Sunday they do not get any double pay (which is also required according to the law). Should the government not set the example ? In a country, where rules and laws do not seem to have the same value as NOB, just go for the fair compromise, fair for both sides.... Furthermore, laws change and are interpreted differently according to the source anyway. It is like paying IMSS for your worker. How many of us really do that ? Well, if the employee has a hospital or doctor's bill, a little financial help will be much appreciated. We, Northeners, we like to have clear cut answers to everything and that is already some kind of a cultural clash because, it does not work like that here. Any discussion on law we had here, wether it is traffic law, immigration law, or other, proves that clearly. So, be fair and do not worry and be happy. Have a beautiful Sunday ! Rony Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest verchiel Posted March 3, 2013 Report Share Posted March 3, 2013 Rony Rocks the Truth! Thank you! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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