Putting residency requirements for expats in Mexico in perspective

[Mainecoons]

OK, I'll bite: What is a "sweaty sewer?"

[The world's best climate]

That is correct. The government seems to be concentrating on tourism to the destination resorts on both coasts and not much interested in our little pocket of retirees.

Unfortunately that is true. Gov. is after the real big spenders, and they usually do not consume mexican resources such as IMSS or SP. they just bring big money....

The town won`t be alone, It is a notorious thing, that now a days, mexicans are coming to buy homes over here. Now they are starting to bring the money.

[LaChula]

Tapatios who move here will continue to do most of their shopping in Guadalajara, not support the charities which not only helps people at Lakeside but also spends the money donated at lakeside , will drop the inflated pay for the domestic help and will frequent only the better restaurants. It will be trickle down back to poverty for many of the locals.

That is a concern of mine, too, Shira. I think that many retires of moderate means would not be able to stay or come to live here. People with big bucks might meet the requirements but if they have those big bucks, would they choose to live in Mexico in a small village in the mountains? Most people on this board have stated they came here for the weather and lower cost of living. Very few came because of interest in Mexico, the customs, the culture, Some want it to be like it was "at home", don't make much effort to speak the language, eat local food, attend local events.

[RickS]

And I for one think you would be amazed at the people who live illegally at Lake Chapala.

More Liana,

That statement is meant, I think, to suggest that there are legions (not with a capital "L") who are living there illegally. Do you have numbers and, if so, how did you come by them. I know that you once lived there but am just curious.

[More Liana]

Not legions, just some. And I meant that you would be amazed to know who they are. It would not be wise to name names, would it?

[valbogyo]

I know a couple on the coast. It is very, very easy to be illegal here. It is easy to get in the country and, not long ago, you did not need a passport to enter. If you don't own a car and don't own a house, its easy peasy and why would you need a legal permit? I bought a Mexican plated car when I had a tourist visa, though its not supposed to be possible. I imagine, if you came in ten years ago that it was easier to do everything without a residency visa.

.

[carib]

Not legions, just some. And I meant that you would be amazed to know who they are. It would not be wise to name names, would it?

Agree with you. I know quite a few illegal here.

[lakeside7]

I always have the feeling that many of the "regular oldies" in the Chapala Plaza are here under the radar

[pappysmarket]

An excellent article from one of the PV boards:

Puerto Vallarta, Mexico - Yucalandia, a very informative blog about living in Mexico, just published an article regarding the changes to Aduana's rules on the importation of foreign-plated vehicles under Mexico's new Immigration Laws, which we thought might be useful to our readers:

There have been tons of rumors, suppositions and misinformation flying around on expat forums and expat blogs about what people think are the current Aduana rules for temporarily imported foreign-plated cars, a.k.a "TIP" (Temporary Import Permit) cars.

Here at Yucalandia, we like facts supported by the official rules and laws. Using that basis, let’s evaluate what is written in the current law and official rules:

First: There are no Aduana rules or law that specifically cover how to issue or renew Permisos de Importación Temporal de Vehículos for foreigners with either Residente Temporal or Residente Permanente IMN residency permits. ~ Zip / Zero / Nada ~

In the absence of any published law or rules, each local Aduana office is currently doing what they think makes sense - likely as decided by their local director.

Second: The information recently presented by a few local Aduana personnel at Nuevo Vallarta meeting was NOT OFFICIAL, nor does it apply nationwide. If we read their 2 Powerpoint presentations carefully, we find a number of factual errors, because they are NOT official nor legally-binding documents. They are, instead, just informal non-legal presentations to try to help the local gringos understand how Nuevo Vallarta agents are temporarily choosing to handle foreign-plate cars for gringos with the new INM Residency permits. The Nuevo Vallarta powerpoint Aduana presentation was effectively JUST A SET of PROPOSALS, because there have been NO NEW OFFICIAL written policies or rules promulgated out of Aduana in D.F.

Local Aduana offices are given broad discretion and wide latitude in how they apply policies. In the absence of any new national policy: The Nuevo Vallarta Aduana personnel are fully allowed to apply overly stringent local policies, while Puerto Vallarta Aduana personnel (who are approving some TIP extensions) are fully allowed to grant very liberal local policies.

Third: All gringos whose INM permits have not expired, must really WAIT until there are formal policies/rules or a law written and approved by Aduana D.F. The current Ley Aduanero uses out-dated, obsolete, legal terminology ("No Inmigrante" or FM3, and "Inmigrante" or FM2 and "Inmigrado") - so, the old Aduana law terminology no longer fits the new INM residency permits and INM’s legal terminology. This leaves Aduana’s local offices with NO clear detailed legal guidelines on vehicle Temporary Import Permits (TIPs) – so they are just TEMPORARILY making things up as they go.

Does Mexico Really Plan to Allow Residente Temporal and Permanente Residents to Only have Mexican Plated Cars?

Many gringos are trying to use individual local Aduana personnel actions as evidence to make logical sense of the national policies of 2 very different and very separate Mexican Government agencies. There is no official information on what Aduana has planned for us. These problems were created by INM dramatically changing the numbers and kinds and names of residency permits - which made Aduana’s written rules... obsolete, because there is Zip / Zero / Nada equivalency between the old INM FM2, FM3, & Inmigrado permits versus the new INM Residente Temporal & Residente Permanente permits.

INM has very different needs and different agendas than Aduana. There appears to be almost ZERO/zip/nada coordination between INM’s changing to new policies (creating totally new immigration categories), and Aduana. The problems INM has caused to existing Aduana policies, makes it clear that they did not coordinate policies with some intent to screw expats.

INM issued their new law in May 2011, and then issued totally new policies on Nov. 9, 2012. In the meantime, Aduana has issued ZERO/zip/nada official adjustments to Aduana policies to accommodate the new INM rules => no coordination => no evidence of any plan => no evidence of any intent.

Some gringos are imagining that Aduana is "saying that the only cars they want legally in their country those cars that have a Mexican plate." There is Zip/Zero/Nada official information to confirm this.

Really, we all must wait to see exactly what Aduana’s official national policy will be.

Aduana may allow our foreign-plated vehicles ... or they may not...

In the meantime, we only have various, individual, non-binding proposals being made by a few local Aduana offices.

History of How this Mess Evolved: INM’s FM3 and Aduana’s TIP program were originally created in response to a 1990's Mexican Government effort to support the growth of maquiladoras/factories in Mexico to take advantage of NAFTA.

Aduana was told to create a permit that allowed American and Canadian manufacturing managers and experts to move to Mexico temporarily, and live and work in Mexico temporarily... temporarily bringing-in their foreign-plated cars. The intent was a TIP with no final hard-and-fast expiration date, but instead to create a flexible permit for business men and experts to come to Mexico – work a while – and return back to Canada or the USA.

After the TIP was created, (and the FM3), lots of US and Canadian retirees decided to use these temporary-businessman programs for their own purposes: coming into Mexico to live effectively as permanent residents – often with NO intent to permanently return to the USA or Canada – and certainly not intending to return their cars to the USA or Canada. The gringo retirees did this by filing for temporary residency and temporary auto import permits in Mexico, even though their effective intent was to permanently leave the cars in Mexico.

The Mexican systems were not designed for how the Americans and Canadians used them. "Temporary" permits were intended to be temporary, for businessmen to come and go easily, but because the Mexican Government did not anticipate the gringo retirees’ unintended usages when writing the FM3 and TIP rules, the rules were basically later used by gringo retirees as loopholes to avoid becoming permanent residents – and used by gringos as loopholes to avoid paying duties to bring in the cars for what they really use as permanent importation.

The facts? Gringos wanted to bring their cars into Mexico and basically not ever take them out, without paying the import duties. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in import duties. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in annual permit fees. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in annual registration fees nor getting plates. Pay Zero/Zip/Nada in taxes - all while liberally using the Mexican roads and services ... all for free. Free - A word gringos treasure...

Should we blame Mexican officials from later trying to clean up the mess of 10,000's of gringos who came into Mexico and stayed here using their vehicles for free - free from unrestricted by pesky registrations, free from even reasonable import duties, free from getting new license plates – all by simply using loop-holes in Mexican policy designed for truly temporary businessmen and manufacturing experts?

What are we left with now? Unfortunately, Mexican government policies change only very slowly, and since INM policy changes made Aduana TIP policies obsolete: Aduana is taking a while to try to formulate a new policy. It is difficult to create a new policy where Canadians and Americans who really come here as permanent residents can be shifted to actually allow their cars to be here for long periods (effectively permanent imports) - and to stop scooting through the loophole of basically free temporary auto permits.

Canada and the US don'tt allow Mexicans to import their cars into Canada and the USA, and keep them there for free, especially Mexicans who want to live there for more than six months or a year.

I am left asking: Why should Mexico offer something that the USA and Canada (and pretty much all other countries) prohibit?

Why should individual Americans and Canadians in Mexico, expect much free services and free usage of the roads, and expect more liberal treatment from the Mexican Government, than they offer Mexicans who are guests in the USA and Canada?

Unfortunately, all governments change their policies and rules over time – and the rest of us are left to figure out what to choose from the resulting options.

We have to wait until Aduana actually publishes something official.

Let’s all hope that Aduana comes out soon with official policies that work.

More information can be found at yucalandia.wordpress.com.

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[joco69]

You've made my point for me. You criticize the U.S. for making Mexicans "run a gauntlet of rules and regulations that are truly byzantine" yet seem to think it's perfectly natural for Canada to make "immigration . . . very difficult for Americans, let alone Mexicans."

The truth is that Canada, like Mexico, pursues a zero-tolerance policy for illegal immigrants.

And regarding the Canadian-Mexican guest worker program:

It permits 16,000 Mexicans a year to work in Canada on a temporary basis. The program offers no path to legalization. In fact, to ensure that the Mexicans don’t overstay their visas the Canadian government withholds a portion of their pay and deposits it in a special fund. The workers only can claim their money after they return to Mexico. Furthermore, while Canada requires that the workers be married, they cannot bring their wives or children with them to Canada.

Meanwhile, along with an estimated 525,000 illegal immigrants from Mexico, in 2011--a typical year--the U.S. admitted over 65,000 Mexican nationals as legal immigrants, a status that places them on a clear path to citizenship. And legal immigrants are entitled to bring in members of their immediate families.

Your info on the Canadian work programme is totally wrong, there is no limit on how many workers can take part in it, and it is organized between the mexican and canadian governments, in the case of Quebec by this Province who has a say on any immigration issues for its territory. Mexican guestworkers and now also those from Guatemala are adored by our local farmers who could not do without them. Many of our larger farmers do now have farms in Guanajuato and use the same workers all year around in both countries. Our farms would go out of business if they could not draw workers from this programme, Canadians prefer to stay home on social security than work the land. Many Mexicans are still immigrating to Canada and they blend in very well with our society. Canada is a land of immigrants and will continue to be, its survival depends on immigration, locals don't have anymore kids so immigration is a must if our population is to grow and prosper.

[joco69]

Not true, bmh, about the green card. Last time I checked, if you are married to a US citizen, it takes about 3 months to become a green card holder (that's how long it took for my wife to get the green card after we applied). And, yes, it takes 5 yrs with a green card living in the US to become a citizen ( pretty short time for living in the US, don't you think) and we pay taxes every year too. That is normal, no? But, she was "clean"...no history of crime, illegal entry, etc. The illegals bring very little to the US, as most are very poor, no education, no skills (computer tech, doctor, etc) and do not have an income source. They are basically dependent on Americans for food, shelter, and money. Those who treat them the worse in the US are those who speak their own language. The sad part is that their own country has ignored their plight, and turned their back on them. The even sadder part, most want to get all the US dollars they can and return to their country with them. This is what hurts the US most.

You don't know what you are saying, farms, hotels, restaurants and other low paying jobs could not be filled without the illegal mexican workforce. If the US would send them all home your hotels and restaurants would close down and your food bills for fresh produce would quadruple. No american would work for the salaries those people work, they are exploited like slaves by large corporations who are the only one's to blame for illegal immigration. If the employers would be sanctioned there would be no place for illegals. And before you fingerpoint poor illegals with no education and skills, look in your own backyard, its not all that rosy in the land of the free, millions who cannot read nor write, millions without skills, millions who drop out of school etc etc. Its always easier to critizise others than looking in your own backyard.

[bmh]

Hookemhorns.

You must be an epert who knows more than my lawyer. Heck it took me 1 year to get a green card after I married my husband in 1971 and another year after the immigration in LA cancelled it because they thought it was a phony card. They even took me away at the airport and I spent the night at the airport waiting for them to figure it out while my husband was frantically looking for me. Now I was told by an immigration lawyer it would take me 5 years because they were backed up.

Of course I pay taes and the IRS is witholding 30% of any money I get out of my US account while they only withold 10% of my husband´s. hell Romney does not get that much withheld I bet.

Saying that illegals are a drain on the system is also pretty uneducated, may illegals who have jobs pay social security and other witholdings and will never see the benefits. What is happening to that money I wonder? I ran a winery and without illegals we would have nobody harvesting. It is a myth or propaganda that illegals are a drain, We could not find any legal workers willing to work in the vineyards during harvest time.