New Immigration Laws

[Griffin]

Wow! How negative can one get while still admitting that he/she wants to stay here?

Facts are facts whether perceived as positive or negative.

[Mainecoons]

Interesting read, thanks for posting it. There, they were given the 50 percent income credit for home ownership. They had to show deed of trust (fideicomiso) whereas here most folks own homes outright, fee simple. They were able to apply and get 10 year visas.

• What do we need to turn in?
  
  • The completed online form
    
  • copy of current visa (take your original)
    
  • copy of passport pages (take your original)
    
  • copy of fidecomiso, if you own a house - note: if you are a couple both parties have to have the fide copies (take your original)
    
  • copy showing payment of fidecomiso, if you own a house (take your original)
    
  • a most recent utility bill with your correct address, the same address as on your INM form.
    
  • proof of income, the equivalent of 500 days of minimum salary in DF - 31,165peso, however, since we own our house, and can show our fidecomiso, that amount is cut in half, then with the peso to dollar conversion, today using about 13pesos per dollar, monthly for the past 6 months
    
  • photos, size infantil, 2 front, 2 side
    

  [*]What will be need to pay?

  • per person is 1000pesos for paperwork processing
    
  • per person, for us - 3815pesos, for a 10-year visa.
    

It is beginning to look like the income levels required are going to be a lot higher than previously. Still up in the air is whether 4-5 years of FM3 will qualify one for Residente Permanente and whether or not the local offices will have some discretion on income for long term existing residents. This blogger didn't indicate what their current visas are.

[Griffin]

A person in SMA experience yesterday:

Here are some notes regarding today in San Miguel. I am married to a Mexican and we supported proof but appeared to not be a factor.

1. Staff were courteous and helpful.

2. Application I processed on-line and obtained the NUT tracking number.

3. If you only have a travel permit (FMM) you need to leave the country and apply at the consulate near your home. No one can initiate the visa process from within Mexico, only process renewals.

4. The income to prove for a Temporary Resident visa is 400 x Mexico city daily minimum wage which in dollars is approx $1910 depending on exchange rate. This amount is for one person or can be the same total for a couple. You can pay for all 3 years at once creating a saving.

5. The income to prove for a Permanent Resident visa is 500 x Mexico City daily minimum wage which is approx. $2500. This amount is for one person or can be the same total for a couple.

6. To prove income I had 6 months of bank statements I took off the Internet. Then I supported that amount by having a letter from my former employer issued last January stating what my pension would be this year. I also had a Canadian NR-4 which is equivalent to a T-4 showing last year’s total income. They were only seeking confirmation and a bank letter was never requested.

7. One Immigration officer stated time with a FM-3 would not count. When another facilitator asked the Delgado he stated the FM-3 time would count. The bottom line is we will see what happens tomorrow or the next time this issue comes up.

8. I have had a FM-2 for 2 years and sufficient pension income for a Permanent Resident. I was told I can apply for Permanent Resident which I did.

9. In two weeks we return to confirm approval and complete another form.

[barcelonaman]

I think it's good to hear 'first hand' reports from INM visits, even if outside of Chapala, especially since there seems to be no info from the Chapala office.

Here's a blog about a visit to the Merida INM office.

http://debiinmerida....753494848893599

interesting part of this blog is they will give 50 % reduction in proof of income if you are a home owner.. not seen that before, !! hope its correct it will help some folks, but worringly still need a very high income if you are not...

[Mainecoons]

Griffin, using this thread for complaining is not going to change anything but it could get the thread closed. You're repeating your complaints and fears endlessly. We can see the income requirements are higher. We still lack tons of information and we don't know whether or not there will be flexibility on that once it becomes apparent how many people are affected. It hasn't taken me long to learn from living in Mexico that things aren't always as they appear at first, that legal changes require a period of adjustment and that patience is mandatory when dealing with government and many businesses.

Thanks.

[Griffin]

If implemented as reported from the Pto.Vallarta Office, the new law will have some unintended victims such as maids, gardeners, handymen, restaurants and many others. Since many expats will no longer qualify to stay, many locals will loose their jobs and clients.

I feel sad for the expats that cannot renew and enjoy Mexico, as well as for the locals who will loose their jobs. Governments sure know how to screw up peoples lifes.

The revenue loss to Mexico is higher than maids and gardeners losing their jobs. The loss of sales taxes paid to local governments will be high, the loss to restaurants, stores, doctors, taxis, landlords, etc., and all the people and businesses dependent on the pesos spent by the Mexicans who are dependent on the money the foreigners spend with them. I'm betting hundreds of thousands of dollars a year are spent by people who now no longer qualify.

What will the transitos do for bribes? I guess they up their demands from the people who have enough income to stay here legally. I bet the new legals won't like being stopped every few blocks for traffic offences.

[Griffin]

Griffin, using this thread for complaining is not going to change anything but it could get the thread closed. You're repeating your complaints and fears endlessly. We can see the income requirements are higher. We still lack tons of information and we don't know whether or not there will be flexibility on that once it becomes apparent how many people are affected. It hasn't taken me long to learn from living in Mexico that things aren't always as they appear at first, that legal changes require a period of adjustment and that patience is mandatory when dealing with government and many businesses.

Thanks.

Sorry, where did I complain? I thought I posted the experience of another person and the post I made after yours was written while you sent this one so not after you sent it. I wasn't tying to complain only post observations of what can happen in relation to the observation of others.

[Mainecoons]

This is about the new financials demanding more income or assets than a foreigner needs to show to qualify to live in the U.S.A. Mexico is not more expensive than the U.S.A. and we shouldn't have to prove more income than an equivalent foreigner does to live there.

We aren't the people who determine "should or shouldn't" in this country.

The financial amounts required under the old rules are not shoestring considering the average income for many Mexican professions is half that amount. Is Mexico raising the salaries of teachers and police officers so they are not living on a subsistence income?

The new income requirements are higher than what the U.S. requires for a foreigner to live in the U.S.

I haven't heard of any foreigners needing financial help from Mexico to survive and I know of many meeting the minimum amount under the old rules who can afford to travel and eat out regularly. None of them have been a burden to Mexico and the majority of their income is spent in Mexico.

The new amount went up 60% for a temporal from an FM3. The cost of living does not justify that increase. It went up 25% for a permante from the FM2 and the cost of living also did not increase that much.

The majority of retirees who might consider Mexico will be buying homes that are less than $195,000 USD and have income less than the permante or temporal amount so Mexico will lose all of those people.

Here and all over these threads. Please stop making "will lose" statements. We don't know any of that at this point. Really!

[Mainecoons]

I was at the office early this morning to renew my FM2. No paymennts forms yet and to go to the internet to fill the application. They could not answer any of my questions. They did not know the answers. Told to come back either Fridaay or Monday. I came out from the office the same way when went in. Nothing. I speak fluent Spanish, no problems with communication with the clerk. We'll see what happens next. Not many people in the office.

This is where we really are at this point. Note that this report is from yesterday. That is why we have to exercise patience and avoid jumping to conclusions.

[Fred Habacht]

Will all those that agree that the "sky is falling," please bring any large planks of wood to the lakeside area to be used in building an ARK! We must all be ready to flee back to the USA where you can live in semi poverty on your inadequate social security payments. Mexico, some of you think, only wants the wealthy.....

Actually....most countries would prefer givers rather than takers. Mexico does not need new residents that pay $300.00 into IMSS and take out 10 times as much.

This country is blessed with low taxes and yet many of you are asking for better streets, more honest fawning underpaid police, cheaper electricity, more english speaking locals, restaurants that will serve huge portions below cost, servers who will smile when you don't tip, more residents who think you are cute when you mock the local people and government and lets not forget how you howl over how unsafe it is here....when you could be so much safer in Detroit, Chicago, Los Angeles etc and and with no need to show a decent living.

I sure hope CNN with it's eleven viewers will send reporters here to report on this disaster of a country...Mexico isn't even willing to go into debt to let you live here....Oh the humanity...surely GOD will punish this country for not being more welcoming to more visitors.

Fred

[Griffin]

We aren't the people who determine "should or shouldn't" in this country.

Here and all over these threads. Please stop making "will lose" statements. We don't know any of that at this point. Really!

Sorry, I thought it was arithmetic in response to the poster who said maids and gardeners would lose their jobs.

There are more FM3s than FM2s. If there are 1 million foreigners in Mexico, I assume about half are retirees. More than half of those retirees have FM3s and I bet will not financially qualify under the new rules.

Take what they spend and how much that will cost Mexico if they leave. Figure the minimum of 250,000 people with FM3s times the minimum income for an FM3 and that is $32,000,000 dollars a month. That is a lot of revenue to lose if people with FM3s leave. These are assumed numbers but I bet not too far off.

[Mainecoons]

And, once again, you are assuming that the actual implementation will not include flexibility of some sort for those people. Sorry, but until that is a known fact, it is negative speculation. Both of your last two sentences above are rife with speculation. Please knock it off, thanks.

[barcelonaman]

And, once again, you are assuming that the actual implementation will not include flexibility of some sort for those people. Sorry, but until that is a known fact, it is negative speculation. Both of your last two sentences above are rife with speculation. Please knock it off, thanks.

from the blogs and reports from here and others states there seems not seem to be any flexibility on any point so far, except a mention of a 50% reduction if you own a house, which hasnt been mentioned before. therefore we must assume that the government statement stands and until we are informed differently people will have to plan acccordingly. its not too early to do this as everyday more people will have their existing fm3 or whatever, expiring.. at the moment you have to accept what was posted by the mexican government last week.

[giltner68]

Facts are facts, reality is what it is, yet many people just don't want to recognize it, sixty million voters NOB just proved that. I've often said it before, logic and reasoning are a lost art. It seems any more no one wants to, or cannot, think their way through cause and result scenarios.

[CocinaMod]

Maybe I should have done this before, but I'm going to step in here and remind EVERYONE to keep politics (Mexican, US, Canada, Greece, where ever!) out of this thread. I also would hope that people would wait to see EXACTLY what the rules are before getting all riled up.

[econ man]

This was posted yesterday by a reader at mymexicanlawyer.com

Hi Solomon, thought I would give you an update of our experience TODAY at the INM in Playa- we are the folks who's FM3's expired today! It was interesting, and not good interesting. Firstly they told us they will not accept property, assets in a bank OR real estate for the Residente Permanente, secondly we would have to have had all our banking/investment documents translated into Spanish as well; so my TIM HORTON coffee purchases would have been 'documented',, giggle We brought in our deeds for 2 properties, both property tax receipts and our proof of 2 fideicomisos - explaining that our lawyer will do a letter up saying they are worth over 200k++, NOPE, she told us in the future they will accept that, but not now. She even showed us in their manual- it didn't have anything about 'property ownership', only pension/income etc. So, we caved and are keeping the residente temporal for now- very sad really.

[pappysmarket]

Maybe I should have done this before, but I'm going to step in here and remind EVERYONE to keep politics (Mexican, US, Canada, Greece, where ever!) out of this thread. I also would hope that people would wait to see EXACTLY what the rules are before getting all riled up.

Great idea. Let's keep seeing the actual postings of real people who actually are applying and exactly what they are being told. Then if they actually succeed in doing a renewal they can post exactly what was required and perhaps we all will then know where we might want to go to submit our own paperwork.

[More Liana]

I think it is important for everyone to remember that these posts are about what YOU consider to be foreigners: US citizens, Canadians, and a smattering of others.

Mexico did not change its immigration laws with only YOU in mind. There are thousands of foreigners from all over the world who live here--most legally, and some without documents. Yes, the changes will impact you. But please, lumping all foreigners into your personal frame of reference is not only an error, it is also a form of northern North American entitle-itis. To paraphrase another poster: Mexico decides its own policies and laws. Non-Mexicans have to live with them. Many thousands of foreign nationals--foreigners from everywhere in the world--are being affected by the new regulations.

[RVGRINGO]

From the postings of a few experiences yesteerday, it seems that INM agents in several locations are just as puzzled as we are. The confusion factor seems to be causing temporary insanity among some of us, anger among others and political rantings by yet others.

As Thanksgiving is approaching, and we are of limited means, I may have to get my machete and go hunting for a turkey. My eyes aren't good, but I think I saw one on an avatar just a few minutes ago. Wanting to be 'sporting', I tried to send a PM to the turkey as a warning, but it seems I'm not alone in wanting to hunt that turkey down. Its box is full, or maybe it is dead already.

Back on topic: Is anyone going to INM today, or in the next few days in Chapala? If you know someone who is, get the details and post them here. Nothing else will help.

[Griffin]

From the postings of a few experiences yesteerday, it seems that INM agents in several locations are just as puzzled as we are. The confusion factor seems to be causing temporary insanity among some of us, anger among others and political rantings by yet others.

As Thanksgiving is approaching, and we are of limited means, I may have to get my machete and go hunting for a turkey. My eyes aren't good, but I think I saw one on an avatar just a few minutes ago. Wanting to be 'sporting', I tried to send a PM to the turkey as a warning, but it seems I'm not alone in wanting to hunt that turkey down. Its box is full, or maybe it is dead already.

Back on topic: Is anyone going to INM today, or in the next few days in Chapala? If you know someone who is, get the details and post them here. Nothing else will help.

I don't know why you are so angry but the box has room for messages now so please send your PM. No one else has sent a PM criticizing anything I have written on this subject so you will be the first. The box was not full for the reason you stated. You insults are unfathomable though.

[pappysmarket]

Keep it up people and we can all thank you for the topic being closed. You may not like what the mod said, but please listen up.

[Betsy]

Good luck getting any 411 out of mr. personality down at the immigration office.

[Griffin]

I think it is important for everyone to remember that these posts are about what YOU consider to be foreigners: US citizens, Canadians, and a smattering of others.

Mexico did not change its immigration laws with only YOU in mind. There are thousands of foreigners from all over the world who live here--most legally, and some without documents. Yes, the changes will impact you. But please, lumping all foreigners into your personal frame of reference is not only an error, it is also a form of northern North American entitle-itis. To paraphrase another poster: Mexico decides its own policies and laws. Non-Mexicans have to live with them. Many thousands of foreign nationals--foreigners from everywhere in the world--are being affected by the new regulations.

The numbers I cited, about 1 million foreigners, are from Mexico's data of legal aliens in Mexico, those with the documents to live in Mexico.

The new law is compassionate and intended to protect the many illegal aliens entering from the South.

The problem is with the rules that I do not think are reflective of the intent of the law for those who are legally in Mexico. I posted some time ago how administrative rules are written, that the proposed rules are posted for comments and the rules that pass the comment period and criteria are passed into rules. Unfortunately it appears no one who deals with the foreigners who have FM3/2s criticized or objected to the proposed rules that deal with income. The rules should have been sent to FM facilitators who could have objected to the rules but it looks like no one knew how rules are written.

Since these are rules intended to facilitate the law, not rewrite the law, I think this or the next administration can change them.

If everyone had the attitude that laws/rules that are unfair should be abided by anyway, the new immigration laws would not have been written. Mexico, like the U.S. and Canada, does listen to all of its residents and it appears to me that Mexico tries to be fair.

[Fred Habacht]

Your turkey must have been deported or exported....

[Griffin]

Your turkey must have been deported or exported....

Since the Thanksgiving turkey offended you I changed to an early Christmas icon.