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New Immigration Laws


Ajijic

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i love betsys story !! you have to laugh..i do remember reading on a thread here a couple of weeks ago, that any fm3 or 2 that was in the system prior to last thusrday would be processed according to the old rules. so based on that fact you will be fine.. just seems to be the new ones we have big doubts about.

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I was at the office early this morning to renew my FM2. No paymennts forms yet and to go to the internet to fill the application. They could not answer any of my questions. They did not know the answers. Told to come back either Fridaay or Monday. I came out from the office the same way when went in. Nothing. I speak fluent Spanish, no problems with communication with the clerk. We'll see what happens next. Not many people in the office.

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Betsy is in a little different situation than people who have to apply under the new system. She squeezed by in the old system so she will not have to face the new rules until next year. I would think the answer is different for people who want to apply using the new system and maybe not...Time will tell.

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This discussion is overlooking the option to live on less in Mexico and enjoy it more! I think those who come to mexico and attempt to duplicate their lifestyle in th 1st world really miss a grand opportunity. Its possible to live here and not have a car, tv, own a home, a kitchen or even a computer. One can be liberated form all the consumer traps. One of the reasons I admire the mexicans is there focus of family over material things, over possessions. Yes i know thats changing but still there's much to be learned in all of Latin America for the gringo. Most gringos own lots but are unhappy over one thing or another. Having less seems to ultimately make the person less burdened, make life more enjoyable. Those of us who live even part time in Mexico are fortunate to have the opportunity to completely change our lives not live the same life cheaper.

Those of us who financially qualified under the old rules were not destitute and living the frugal lifestyle you describe. If you want to live like that. fine, but most of us don't and don't find it romantic. Many Mexicans live like that due to no economic choice not because they want to.

This is about the new financials demanding more income or assets than a foreigner needs to show to qualify to live in the U.S.A. Mexico is not more expensive than the U.S.A. and we shouldn't have to prove more income than an equivalent foreigner does to live there.

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Saying that you shouldn't have to earn more here than in the USA....overlooks the fact that this isn't the USA. Mexico did not hunt you down and suggest you move here...they welcome you if you come here and they say you must obey our laws. If you ever become a citizen you will be asked to agree to obey the laws of this country and not your previous home land.

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Those who live/d here under the old rules were not always responsible with respect to their own health care costs. Coming down here at age 65+ with clotted arteries and joining IMSS has over-burdened that system. And it annoys Mexican nationals, so maybe there are plans in the works to require expats to either pay more into IMSS or not be allowed to join it so late in life. Maybe they want to be sure you have that extra monthly income to buy your own health insurance.

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IMSS is not related in any way to INM. Neither INM nor IMSS are related in any way to SRE. INM, IMSS, and SRE are not related to Hacienda. Aduana is not related to any of the others. It's important to get a clear view of how Mexico fits together.

INM=Instituto Nacional de Migración. Handles immigration issues.

IMSS=Instituto Mexicano de Seguro Social. Social Security (including pensions) for Mexicans. Medical insurance for Mexicans and foreigners.

SRE=Secretaría de Relaciones Exteriores. Secretary of Exterior Relations. Handle numerous issues including naturalization.

Hacienda=taxation issues. Foreigners must be registered with Hacienda to rent property to others, etc.

Aduana=customs and import/export issues, including temporary and permanent vehicle importation.

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I've lived here long enough to know what IMSS is, and its (non) relationship to INM. However, there may be a corollary between the solvency of IMSS and the change in income requirement for expats. I know at least a dozen expats who have run up IMSS tabs to the tune of 100,000 USD plus. Just saying that it's possible the 50% increase in income requirements is a reflection by the Mexican government that expats are an expensive lot.

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Just because people show more income , does not mean they would have another insurrance. If they wanted that foreigners be insurred they could put it as a condition of their visa rather than increase the amound of money needed to move here. Just because you show more income does not perclude you from joining IMSS.

I took a Mexican kid to France and I had to show he had travelling health insurrance before he could enter.

There no relation between ihealth ins and SS and immigration in France either but someone higher than either one of them is obviously telling them what to do.

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Saying that you shouldn't have to earn more here than in the USA....overlooks the fact that this isn't the USA. Mexico did not hunt you down and suggest you move here...they welcome you if you come here and they say you must obey our laws. If you ever become a citizen you will be asked to agree to obey the laws of this country and not your previous home land.

In all law there must be a justification for the law or rules. Raising the income requirement by 60% for a residente temporal from the old FM3 financial requirement isn't justified by the cost of living in Mexico. The cost of living in the U.S, has been lower than that since 2007. The COLA amount in SS and VA checks is 16.7% increase since 2007. I doubt the cost of living in Mexico has risen higher than it has in the U.S.

The U.S. requirement is 100% of the poverty level for the head of household and a lower percentage increase for other family members. That is a low requirement considering how much more it cost to live in the U.S.

The U.S. doesn't invite people to retire there that I know of, but Mexico does want retirees to move here. I guess now they want most of us to move out or not come here.

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Saying that you shouldn't have to earn more here than in the USA....overlooks the fact that this isn't the USA. Mexico did not hunt you down and suggest you move here...they welcome you if you come here and they say you must obey our laws. If you ever become a citizen you will be asked to agree to obey the laws of this country and not your previous home land.

Saying that you shouldn't have to earn more here than in the USA....overlooks the fact that this isn't the USA. Mexico did not hunt you down and suggest you move here...they welcome you if you come here and they say you must obey our laws. If you ever become a citizen you will be asked to agree to obey the laws of this country and not your previous home land.

But remember way back when Mexico had so few residents in what is now Texas that Spain encouraged Americans to settle that part of the country, in part to keep France and England out. They flooded in and then demanded to be treated fairly and when told to shut up and obey, well, the rest is history.

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Just posted a while ago on the Vallarta board about someone's experience today down here:

We went to INM this morning in Puerto Vallarta to renew our FM3’s and this is what we were told:

Because we have had our FM3’s for at least 4 years we have just two options:

 Apply for Permanent Resident Status, or

 Leave the country and reapply for Temporary Resident Status before the expiration date on our FM3’s

The requirements for Permanent Resident Status are:

 If we are retired, proof of monthly income of $32,000 mp per person (6 months of documentation required)

 If we are still employed, proof of total investments of $1,500,000 mp per person (12 months of documentation required)

 If we had had a FM3 for fewer than 4 years, we could reapply at the office in PV for Temporary Resident status for a period not to exceed the 4 year limit.

The payment requirements have changed:

 A $1,000 mp bank payment is required on the same day as the forms are submitted to the INM.

 An additional payment is required when the application is approved. (I forgot the precise amount - $3,150 mp I think. This is a one time payment, or as the INM women said, “This is forever.”)

 The process takes about 30 days. If you need to leave the country before you have your documents, you may apply for a letter from INM (a 3-5 day notice is necessary) for $325 mp.

The INM office in Puerto Vallarta had no information whatsoever on the status of foreign plated cars. We were told to contact the Customs office.

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Wow, that is interesting. You're saying they are requiring $5000 U.S. for the two of you in income for the Permanent Resident? That is way over the figures we've seen elsewhere and may lend credence to the fact that the states are setting their own figures. That's $60 grand per year, talk about rich retirees!

Even more interesting and seemingly in contradiction to what has been reported around here, they are treating your FM3s like FM2s when it comes to applying for the new version of Immigrado, namely permanent resident. We are hoping that is going to be the case here as well when the dust settles.

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Wow, that is interesting. You're saying they are requiring $5000 U.S. for the two of you in income for the Permanent Resident? That is way over the figures we've seen elsewhere and may lend credence to the fact that the states are setting their own figures. That's $60 grand per year, talk about rich retirees!

Even more interesting and seemingly in contradiction to what has been reported around here, they are treating your FM3s like FM2s when it comes to applying for the new version of Immigrado, namely permanent resident. We are hoping that is going to be the case here as well when the dust settles.

Puerto Vallarta is also in Jalisco.

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Wow, that is interesting. You're saying they are requiring $5000 U.S. for the two of you in income for the Permanent Resident? That is way over the figures we've seen elsewhere and may lend credence to the fact that the states are setting their own figures. That's $60 grand per year, talk about rich retirees!

Even more interesting and seemingly in contradiction to what has been reported around here, they are treating your FM3s like FM2s when it comes to applying for the new version of Immigrado, namely permanent resident. We are hoping that is going to be the case here as well when the dust settles.

Some sites are saying each additional person is 50% of the required income and some like this person, say 100%. Either one will be too rich for most retirees.

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I think its very clear that Mexican law and policy makers have decided that they do not want expat residents at subsistence income levels. I hear constantly that there are tens of thousands of baby boomers on their way here. I never believed it and don't believe it now. Why would Mexico want thousands and thousands of US citizens with $1250 to $2000 a month SS payments living on a shoestring in their country. They need to provide for their own and I bet the next move will be to establish a means test for all the social programs which non-citizens want to use when they move here. By establishing these new income levels Mexico will readily have in place the information necessary to tell someone they don't meet the means test. I would also anticipate a two tiered property tax system, one for nationals and another for foreign owners.

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Wow, that is interesting. You're saying they are requiring $5000 U.S. for the two of you in income for the Permanent Resident? That is way over the figures we've seen elsewhere and may lend credence to the fact that the states are setting their own figures. That's $60 grand per year, talk about rich retirees!

Even more interesting and seemingly in contradiction to what has been reported around here, they are treating your FM3s like FM2s when it comes to applying for the new version of Immigrado, namely permanent resident. We are hoping that is going to be the case here as well when the dust settles.

i seem to remember saying the fm3 was to be accepted as part of the 4 year process a few days ago, but moderator2 closed the link due to so called mis information. and that different states have different ideas.. and got a warning for it !! even more interesting !! contradicion ??

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I am on my 3rd year of FM2 and ....on a positive note,.... it is an exciting idea that I do not know which country I will be living in next year.

Rony

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I'm not sure where you came from or where you're living, but I can tell you that nearly $2k per month for permanent residents will preclude many US folks on SSI and "free" healthcare? Where do I go to get that? Cost of living here, electricity 4X the US, food depending isn't all that cheap, I don't eat out much, but I can eat fast food in the States for less, TV @$75/month isn't a deal, Internet @ $40 is maybe on par, poor water requires filters I never needed NOB, pressure pumps I never needed, propane a@$30/month isn't cheap, visa cost every year, mailbox every year, sorry, I'd have to disagree with your assumptions. The living cheap in Mexico train left the station a while back. And don't even get into buying any "luxury" item like electronics, tools etc. The other day I needed a small Dremel diamond cutting wheel and Home Depot had them $480mxd - I bought 2 on Amazon for $30 and had a friend NOB mail them to me. I don't know exactly what the "fee" structure you posted relates to, but it's not "cheap". Rent is a good deal, mostly because the owners pay almost no tax so they don't have to pass it along, the downside is no infrastructure, no street maintenance and under paid police with their hands out for mordida. But, I'll give you this, the weather is great and the scenery nice .

Wow! How negative can one get while still admitting that he/she wants to stay here?

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If implemented as reported from the Pto.Vallarta Office, the new law will have some unintended victims such as maids, gardeners, handymen, restaurants and many others. Since many expats will no longer qualify to stay, many locals will loose their jobs and clients.

I feel sad for the expats that cannot renew and enjoy Mexico, as well as for the locals who will loose their jobs. Governments sure know how to screw up peoples lifes.

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Puerto Vallarta is also in Jalisco.

Yikes, you're right. But those kinds of numbers aren't getting kicked around locally. That's what makes this whole thing so crazy and why we really have to avoid guessing or speculating at this point. I get the distinct feeling that the various immigration offices are really confused and floundering along with the rest of us.

Just another indication that we have to wait and see what is going to happen and it might be tough for those having to renew during the inevitable period of adjustment.

One thing is certain, if they really are going to require family incomes of that magnitude, a lot of people will be headed elsewhere.

I know Spencer is very busy trying to get some clarity here and hope he will return soon. Spencer, if you come up with something, it might be a good idea to start a new thread about it.

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I think its very clear that Mexican law and policy makers have decided that they do not want expat residents at subsistence income levels. I hear constantly that there are tens of thousands of baby boomers on their way here. I never believed it and don't believe it now. Why would Mexico want thousands and thousands of US citizens with $1250 to $2000 a month SS payments living on a shoestring in their country. They need to provide for their own and I bet the next move will be to establish a means test for all the social programs which non-citizens want to use when they move here. By establishing these new income levels Mexico will readily have in place the information necessary to tell someone they don't meet the means test. I would also anticipate a two tiered property tax system, one for nationals and another for foreign owners.

The financial amounts required under the old rules are not shoestring considering the average income for many Mexican professions is half that amount. Is Mexico raising the salaries of teachers and police officers so they are not living on a subsistence income?

The new income requirements are higher than what the U.S. requires for a foreigner to live in the U.S.

I haven't heard of any foreigners needing financial help from Mexico to survive and I know of many meeting the minimum amount under the old rules who can afford to travel and eat out regularly. None of them have been a burden to Mexico and the majority of their income is spent in Mexico.

The new amount went up 60% for a temporal from an FM3. The cost of living does not justify that increase. It went up 25% for a permante from the FM2 and the cost of living also did not increase that much.

The majority of retirees who might consider Mexico will be buying homes that are less than $195,000 USD and have income less than the permante or temporal amount so Mexico will lose all of those people.

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