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And how does that article refute what Bowden is saying. It really doesn't matter whether an economy is growing or whether it's third world, second world or whatever. What matters is who is benefiting, isn't it? Hell, there are parts of Mississippi that have all of the characteristics of a third world country taking into account poverty, disease, infant mortality rates, education etc.

Your argument doesn't fly.

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What does that have to do with what the majority of people here are making? Minimum wage is less than 70 pesos a day. The figures I posted above are correct. Do YOU think you could live on 1200, 2100 or even 6000 pesos a month? Mexico's poverty could fall a ling way and STILL be horrible. According to the mexican government the lower 48% are the only ones in poverty, do you think making 1300 pesos a month would take you out of poverty?

The rich are definitely getting richer here, take a look at carlos slim.

Here is the wikipedia article:

http://www.chapala.c...d/webboard.html

Current figures indicate that as much as 44.2 percent of the Mexican population (over 49 million) lives below the poverty line as defined by the country's National Council of Social Development Policy Evaluation (Spanish: Consejo Nacional de Evaluación de la Política de Desarrollo Social, CONEVAL).[1] In 2008, 33.7% of the population lived in moderate poverty and at least 10.5% suffered from extreme poverty.[6]

Only 11.8 percent of the working population earn wages equal or above MX$6,716.40 (US$559.70) per month.

The other article is not there, I'll be back.

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From Coneval:

El Consejo Nacional de Evaluación de la Política de Desarrollo Social (CONEVAL) informa los resultados de la medición de pobreza 2010 para cada entidad federativa y para el país en su conjunto, lo cual fortalece la rendición de cuentas y la transparencia en la política social.

  • Entre 2008 y 2010 se redujeron las carencias sociales de acceso a los servicios de salud; acceso a la seguridad social; servicios básicos de la vivienda; calidad y espacios de la vivienda, y de rezago educativo.
  • En el mismo periodo, en el contexto de la crisis económica, se redujo el ingreso real de los hogares en el país, especialmente en las áreas urbanas.
  • Asimismo, se registró un incremento de la población que carece de acceso a la alimentación.
  • Derivado de lo anterior, la población en pobreza en el país aumentó de 44.5% a 46.2%, que corresponde a un incremento de 48.8 a 52.0 millones de personas entre 2008 y 2010.
  • En el mismo periodo, la población en pobreza extrema pasó de 10.6% a 10.4%; en términos del número de personas en situación de pobreza extrema, éste se mantuvo en 11.7 millones entre 2008 y 2010.

Las mediciones de pobreza que hoy reporta el CONEVAL permiten, por primera vez, evaluar los cambios en la situación de pobreza de la población mexicana en sus dimensiones económica y social para cada entidad federativa y para el país en su conjunto.

La información da cuenta de las variaciones en la pobreza a lo largo del territorio nacional: el hecho de que 52 millones de mexicanas y mexicanos se encuentren en situación de pobreza, y 11.7 millones en condición de pobreza extrema, permite dimensionar la magnitud de los desafíos que enfrenta el Estado para erradicar la pobreza, especialmente en las regiones y los grupos sociales más desfavorecidos y rezagados.

El Consejo Nacional de Evaluación de la Política de Desarrollo Social (CONEVAL) es un organismo público descentralizado de la Administración Pública Federal, con autonomía y capacidad técnica para generar información objetiva sobre la situación de la política social y la medición de la pobreza en México, que permita mejorar la toma de decisiones en la materia.

If you can read this AlanMexicali, it actually states that total poverty is rising, not falling.

A December 2007 Global Exchange article, discussing maquiladoras since NAFTA, discussed how worker settlements were sprouting up around these factories with housing made from cardboard, sticks and sheet metal. These shanties had neither sufficient clean water nor adequate sewage systems. The article talked of sweatshop blue jean maquiladoras making millions of dollars off their workers, including children under the age of 11 and of young women workers suffering sexual harassment. It told of laborers putting in 12-hour workdays producing thousands of pairs of Polo Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger and Wrangler jeans per week for weekly wages of 700 pesos ($53 U.S.). These jeans were being sold in Los Angeles stores for 1000 pesos ($75 U.S.) per pair.

Yeah, someone is full of it, and it ain't Charles Bowden

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What does that have to do with what the majority of people here are making? Minimum wage is less than 70 pesos a day. The figures I posted above are correct. Do YOU think you could live on 1200, 2100 or even 6000 pesos a month? Mexico's poverty could fall a ling way and STILL be horrible. According to the mexican government the lower 48% are the only ones in poverty, do you think making 1300 pesos a month would take you out of poverty?

The rich are definitely getting richer here, take a look at carlos slim.

The same is happening in the US now. The disparity between professionals and working class has always been a sore spot and factories and gov't employees are paying taxes and getting free medical and cheap federal gov't housing for $5,000.00 pesos down and $1,000 pesos a month with low interest federal loans. {URBI} Any factory worker takes home a minimum of $1,200.00 pesos a week per household or double that for a 2 household working family. If you are comparing your NOB experience to here you will just forfeit your non prejudice objective evaluation of what poverty really is. Most rural peasants live in housing with no costs except food, clothing, transportation and schooling . The urban barrios are a different story.

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The same is happening in the US now. The disparity between professionals and working class has always been a sore spot and factories and gov't employees are paying taxes and getting free medical and cheap federal gov't housing for $5,000.00 pesos down and $1,000 pesos a month with low interest federal loans. {URBI} Any factory worker takes home a minimum of $1,200.00 pesos a week per household or double that for a 2 household working family. If you are comparing your NOB experience to here you will just forfeit your non prejudice objective evaluation of what poverty really is. Most rural peasants live in housing with no costs except food, clothing, transportation and schooling . The urban barrios are a different story.

Still waiting for a refutation of Bowden's points. I posted above the source for maquiladora wages. I'll post it again:

A December 2007 Global Exchange article, discussing maquiladoras since NAFTA, discussed how worker settlements were sprouting up around these factories with housing made from cardboard, sticks and sheet metal. These shanties had neither sufficient clean water nor adequate sewage systems. The article talked of sweatshop blue jean maquiladoras making millions of dollars off their workers, including children under the age of 11 and of young women workers suffering sexual harassment. It told of laborers putting in 12-hour workdays producing thousands of pairs of Polo Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger and Wrangler jeans per week for weekly wages of 700 pesos ($53 U.S.). These jeans were being sold in Los Angeles stores for 1000 pesos ($75 U.S.) per pair.

Please point out the error.

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Still waiting for a refutation of Bowden's points. I posted above the source for maquiladora wages. I'll post it again:

A December 2007 Global Exchange article, discussing maquiladoras since NAFTA, discussed how worker settlements were sprouting up around these factories with housing made from cardboard, sticks and sheet metal. These shanties had neither sufficient clean water nor adequate sewage systems. The article talked of sweatshop blue jean maquiladoras making millions of dollars off their workers, including children under the age of 11 and of young women workers suffering sexual harassment. It told of laborers putting in 12-hour workdays producing thousands of pairs of Polo Ralph Lauren, Tommy Hilfiger and Wrangler jeans per week for weekly wages of 700 pesos ($53 U.S.). These jeans were being sold in Los Angeles stores for 1000 pesos ($75 U.S.) per pair.

Please point out the error.

That was 5 years ago and still only a sampling and not the norm even then for men but the norm for women [$800.00 take home per week] and the video was shot last year. The wage for factory workers is now $1,200.00 [men] pesos take home per week on average. A mortgage on a federal gov't housing project house is $1,000.00 pesos per month now.

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Brilliant observation from someone oblivious to the income here. Do you think the almost 50% earning 1200 a month rural or even 2100 a month rural can afford that????? Yes free medical. My sister in law cannot get medicine from them as they say what she has is incurable and she is dying. Great medical.

This study is from july 2011

http://ceasefiremaga...-the-border-18/

Poverty on the rise in Mexico as Ecuador moves in the opposite direction

A report issued at the start of August by the National Council of Evaluation of Social and Political Development (CONEVAL) has revealed that 46.2% of Mexico’s 112 million people are living in poverty as of 2010 – up from 44.5% in 2008. The figures show that an additional 3.2 million – giving a total figure of 51.7 million – are now classed as living below the poverty line in a country split by one of the planet’s most unequal wealth distribution indices.

Rural poverty increased from 62.4 to 64.9% during the two year period, whilst the level of people living in precarious conditions in urban areas increased from 39.1 to 40.5%. Nutritional scarcity is also on the increase, with insufficient access to food now affecting 24.9% of Mexicans (28 million people) compared with 21.7% in 2008.

For the elderly, the statistics are even more alarming – 45.7% of people aged over 65 live in what is described as “moderate to extreme” poverty, while 8 out of 10 suffer from a lack of sufficient access to food and public services.

It's actually YOU that has the biased outlook. ANYONE that would compare poverty here to the us is, well something is wrong with them.

We live in a poor area in a cold cement house. We compare pesos to pesos. There are NO foreigners living here. I see people eating los romeros, the only milk they have is nido instant. Yes, I learned something about US poverty. There is no comparison to here.

Government housing??? Where????? Up north???? Even though the lower 50% could not afford 1000 pesos. Minimum eage up north is probably close to 8.00 hr. Here it's less than 70 pesos a day. The cost of living is not even close to being that percentage less here.

You really need to learn about the country you live in.

Just like the racial pejudice we discussed in another thread and claimed it is all up north. It's just like MexicoLindo said, another mexican, it's worse the closer you get to the center of the country.

Don't worry though, foreigners are usually out of the loop on most things.

OH, the income you are talking about? Not any of the factories around here (maybe only mexicali) but not elsewhere in mexico.

Quit trying to make out where you moved to as something it's not. In order to change things for the better one has to see things as they are.

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Brilliant observation feom someone oblivious to the income here. Do you think the almost 50% earning 1200 a month rural or even 2100 a month rural can afford that????? Yes free medical. My sister in law cannot get medicine from them as they say what she has is incurable and she is dying. Great medical.

This study is from july 2011

http://ceasefiremaga...-the-border-18/

Poverty on the rise in Mexico as Ecuador moves in the opposite direction

A report issued at the start of August by the National Council of Evaluation of Social and Political Development (CONEVAL) has revealed that 46.2% of Mexico’s 112 million people are living in poverty as of 2010 – up from 44.5% in 2008. The figures show that an additional 3.2 million – giving a total figure of 51.7 million – are now classed as living below the poverty line in a country split by one of the planet’s most unequal wealth distribution indices.

Rural poverty increased from 62.4 to 64.9% during the two year period, whilst the level of people living in precarious conditions in urban areas increased from 39.1 to 40.5%. Nutritional scarcity is also on the increase, with insufficient access to food now affecting 24.9% of Mexicans (28 million people) compared with 21.7% in 2008.

For the elderly, the statistics are even more alarming – 45.7% of people aged over 65 live in what is described as “moderate to extreme” poverty, while 8 out of 10 suffer from a lack of sufficient access to food and public services.

It's actually YOU that has the biased outlook. ANYONE that would compare poverty her to the us is, well something is wrong with them.

We live in a poor area in a cold cement house. We compare pesos to pesos. There are NO foreigners living here. I see people eating los romeros, the only milk they have is nido instant. Yes, I learned something about US poverty. There is no comparison to here.

Also, There is no government housing around here. Maybe up north.

You really need to learn about the country you live in.

Just like the racial pejudice we discussed in another thread and claimed it is all up north. It's just like MexicoLindo said, another mexican, it's eorse the closere you get to the center of the country.

Don't worry though, foreigners are usually out of the loop on most things.

You now switch the discussion back to rural areas from industrialized cities and states to do your thing. If you have a consistency in your posts I would appreciate it. To say I am out of the loop only damages your own prejudice as you know nothing about my experiences in Mexico and really do not think you are being fair saying this unfounded statement as fact. Please continue educating us with your own facts. I am listening.

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From Maquila Properties Inc 2012

There are 560 Maquilas in Tijuana, 11% of Mexico’s total. (http://www.inegi.org.mx/). The minimum wage is about $5/day, although most workers start at double that in Tijuana. Some areas, like Otay Mesa, with a more competitive atmosphere, start with additional bonuses for punctuality, as well as subsidized meals or transport. Adding benefits and taxes, the average starting laborer costs $1.50- $2.00 per hour. This includes a housing fund, retirement, workers compensation and social security, which also include health insurance and hospitalization.

So most workers "start at double that ($5 per day)" So $10 per day at 6 days per week = $60 per week.

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Ha, great deflecting. The almost 50% in poverty include those living EVERYWHERE. Stop deflecting and accept it. I changed nothing. Those living in well to do areas are the vast minority. My figures have been consistant, it's you not accepting facts. Made up figures do not cut it.

Funny how people come here with an income from north of the border and have mexico and her people all figured out. It's obvious you are oblivious to the FACTS posted so what am I wrong about? I am right, you had no clue to the actual poverty.

Weekend drunk runs into mexicali do not make you all knowing on mexico or we mexican's. It's a big country with millions of people, most very poor.

You will get nowhere willie, facts get ignored by those that have it all figured out. Reality may set in at some point though.

http://geography.abo...aquiladoras.htm

There are over one million Mexicans working in over 3,000 maquiladora manufacturing or export assembly plants in northern Mexico, producing parts and products for the United States. Mexican labor is inexpensive and courtesy of NAFTA (the North American Free Trade Agreement), taxes and custom fees are almost nonexistent, which benefit the profits of corportations. Most of these maquiladora lie within a short drive of the U.S.-Mexico border.

Maquiladoras are owned by U.S., Japanese, and European countries and some could be considered "sweatshops" composed of young women working for as little as 50 cents an hour, for up to ten hours a day, six days a week. However, in recent years, NAFTA has started to pay off somewhat - some maquiladoras are improving conditions for their workers, along with wages. Some skilled workers in garment maquiladoras are paid as much as $1-$2 an hour and work in modern, air-conditioned facilities.

Unfortunately, the cost of living in border towns is often 30% higher than in southern Mexico and many of the maquiladora women (many of whom are single) are forced to live in shantytowns that lack electricity and water surrounding the factory cities. Maquiladoras are quite prevalent in Mexican cities such as Tijuana, Ciudad Juarez, and Matamoros that lie directly across the border from the interstate highway-connected U.S. cities of San Diego (California), El Paso (Texas), and Brownsville (Texas), respectively.

The blame starts with the government here though, very biased toward the businesses.

The pay for most unskilled jobs here in mexico state, toluca, is less than 70 pesos a day. It's 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime. That's about 400 pesos a week. That INCLUDES walmart, costco, office depot, home depot, liverpool, hotels, just about everyone. The wife has worked for several, the best she made was a gas station (tips) but it was too dangerous.

Like I said in another thread. My wife's sister Elena just retired, she was a nurse (mexico rn) working in a hospital in mexico city many years. She was making 10000 a month with long hours. She was considered in the upper 10% of upper income earners by ablut 2300 pesos a month.

Mose foreigners that come here with an income are automatically in the upper 10%. Most make over 6700 pesos a month easily. That's like someone moving to the us with the upper 10% income and expecting them to know how the majority live.

The comment about MY facts crack me up. I posted sources for REAL facts. I have seen no source for your made up facts. I think it's not hard to tell which facts are real and which invented.

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Forget all of this crap about wages, benefits etc. The fact is there are places in Northern Mexico that have sunk into anarchy. When the government can no longer promise protection to its citizens, then something very drastic is taking place. All this talk about growth rates, poverty, second world, third world is just meaningless if the basic laws of the country are being torn apart.

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"The pay for most unskilled jobs here in mexico state, toluca, is less than 70 pesos a day. It's 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime. That's about 400 pesos a week. That INCLUDES walmart, costco, office depot, home depot, liverpool, just about everyone. The wife has worked for several, the best she made was a gas station (tips) but it was too dangerous."

What a bunch of nonsense.

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"The pay for most unskilled jobs here in mexico state, toluca, is less than 70 pesos a day. It's 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime. That's about 400 pesos a week. That INCLUDES walmart, costco, office depot, home depot, liverpool, just about everyone. The wife has worked for several, the best she made was a gas station (tips) but it was too dangerous."

What a bunch of nonsense.

Lets see YOU come work at any of these places. Crickets. Do some research on minimum wage, learn something if possible..

Are you really that clueless? Just who do you think the 50% in poverty are. You live in an invented dream world that does not exist. I see you are at least smart enough to not refute the facts.

There was a female gas station attendant killed and robbed in calixtlahuaca (next gas station up) last week. No working at these for the wife.

Typical stereotypical arrogant norteamericano that has it all figured out. Stereotypes are not all wrong I guess.

Not listening or learning is the best way to remain oblivious of the country you chose to move to. Maybe your wife knows the truth, just knows better than try and tell you.

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Funny how people come here with an income from north of the border and have mexico and her people all figured out. It's obvious you are oblivious to the FACTS posted so what am I wrong about? I am right, you had no clue to the actual poverty.

Weekend drunk runs into mexicali do not make you all knowing on mexico or we mexican's. It's a big country with millions of people, most very poor.

Again you do not what your are talking about and trying hard to discredit me any way you feel like. LOL

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"The pay for most unskilled jobs here in mexico state, toluca, is less than 70 pesos a day. It's 10 hours a day 6 days a week with no overtime. That's about 400 pesos a week. That INCLUDES walmart, costco, office depot, home depot, liverpool, just about everyone. The wife has worked for several, the best she made was a gas station (tips) but it was too dangerous."

What a bunch of nonsense.

Why are you disputing this? His profile says he lives in Toluca, is Mexican, and I assume he's not lying about having a wife that has worked in these places. Please tell my why you think he is lying.

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Why are you disputing this? His profile says he lives in Toluca, is Mexican, and I assume he's not lying about having a wife that has worked in these places. Please tell my why you think he is lying.

What! Now Mexican Americans can't be wrong? His juvenile display says it all. Probably a youngster.

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Because he's the typical stereotypical arrogant norteamericano. I told the wife, we only lived in the us 2 years in the last 16 (the only time she lived there) and she said tell him to get a job for those wages. Here is a wage list: The general is at the top, the highest is 62.33 for area geografica a.

http://www.conasami.gob.mx/pdf/tabla_salarios_minimos/2012/01_01_2012.pdf

I do not have to discredit you, you STILL have not acknowledged the facts. You have gotten NO facts right at all, mine I backed up.

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I just read this on another thread posted by AlanMexicali:

Most times these events will stop in intensity when the few bad guys are caught or discouraged by State of Federal Police becoming more vigilant and deciding to have a greater presence in a given trouble spot.

Boy, talk about clueless.

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